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See No Cannabis Evil
Weekend Libertarian ^ | 10 April, 2011 | B.P. Terpstra

Posted on 04/09/2011 7:27:52 AM PDT by AustralianConservative

My surname is a giveaway. But in case you don’t know, I’m from a Dutch background and have a genuine interest in what Larry Collins described as “Holland’s Half-Baked Dutch Experiment” (Foreign Affairs May/June 1999).

For sure, the worst kept secret has been out for decades. “Our liberal drug policy has been a failure, but its advocates are so rooted in their convictions they can’t bring themselves to admit it,” explained Dr. Franz Koopman, director of De Hoop drug rehabilitation center in Dordecht. “First, we banalized cannabis use. We have left our kids with the idea that it’s perfectly all right to smoke it, and from there it was an easy step for them to move to the notion that it’s also okay to use mind-altering substances like ecstasy.”

Today, Holland is still a drug capital.

It’s no coincidence either that European socialists are open to embracing mind-destroying drugs, as opposed to, say, open debates on “manmade” global warming.

The unromantic truth: I’ve witnessed the drug revolution, and it’s an Orwellian lie. If you want more government in your lives, then go soft on drugs. Decriminalizing rape will never reduce rape crimes, so what motivates elites to mother society’s brain-raping sellers?

I also have an intellectual ally in Dr. Theodore Dalrymple. The British author of Our Culture, What’s Left of It reasons (p. 232), “If the war against drugs is lost, then so are the wars against theft, fraud, rape, murder, arson, and illegal parking. Few, if any, such wars are winnable. So let us all do anything we choose.”

(Excerpt) Read more at weekendlibertarian.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Government; Health/Medicine; History; Society
KEYWORDS: blogpimp; cannabis; holland; law; libertarianism
http://weekendlibertarian.blogspot.com/2011/04/see-no-cannabis-evil.html
1 posted on 04/09/2011 7:27:54 AM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: AustralianConservative

Is this your blog? You post to it often.

Why don’t you just post the entire article here according to forum guidelines?


2 posted on 04/09/2011 7:31:23 AM PDT by paulycy (Islamo-Marxism is Evil.)
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To: humblegunner; shibumi; Larry Lucido; TheOldLady; 50mm; Eaker; Allegra; Salamander; ...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2702200/posts?page=1

I think we’ve got a serial blog pimp here... take a look.


3 posted on 04/09/2011 7:32:35 AM PDT by paulycy (Islamo-Marxism is Evil.)
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To: AustralianConservative

I’m easy(and to a point, libertarian)...legalize it...but remember...there is a significant percentage of the population that will have psychotic episodes from their herb use....


4 posted on 04/09/2011 7:41:02 AM PDT by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Vaquero

I guess the response to that is that while everyone wants to legalize drugs in the Libertarian mindset, none want to think of the consequences.

I would be all right with that line of reasoning if the consequences were considered. For example, legalize pot but the person cannot receive any public assistance ever again. No freebies.
Same for other drugs. Plus, the police have a free hand when dealing with the person who becomes violent. Crazed PCP person on a rampage? Why should the cops fight them?
Everybody wants the rights, no one, and I mean no one, wants the responsibilities.
It is the major reason why Libertarian positions on drugs is nonsensical.


5 posted on 04/09/2011 7:50:25 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: AustralianConservative

I’ll be happy to read the article if you will post the whole thing. If it is any good I might visit the blog too.

Thanks,


6 posted on 04/09/2011 7:56:01 AM PDT by Eaker (The problem with the internet, you're never sure of the accuracy of the quotes. Abraham Lincoln '65)
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To: IrishCatholic; All
"Everybody wants the rights, no one, and I mean no one, wants the responsibilities. It is the major reason why Libertarian positions on drugs is nonsensical."

The libertarians that I used to hang with were all very big on accepting responsibilities along with rights. They did not want to be forced to pay for other peoples bad choices any more than you do. I believe that you are seriously misstating the libertarian position.

7 posted on 04/09/2011 8:45:09 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: AustralianConservative
Let's apply the “legalize drugs” argument to immigration:
Look at all the money and manpower that could be saved if the restrictions on immigration were lifted.
No more warrantless searches, huge bureaucracy and criminalization of the innocent!
8 posted on 04/09/2011 8:53:54 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: paulycy

He sure does. It seems in his past he has posted from a few other sites as well, but the articles have still mostly been all by the same author.


9 posted on 04/09/2011 9:13:25 AM PDT by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis (Want to make $$$? It's easy! Use FR as a platform to pimp your blog for hits!!!)
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To: AustralianConservative

This blog post is inaccurate.

To start with, the big picture of the Netherlands is that while soft drugs and prostitution are legal (and I’ll only mention in passing that it is also a religious missionary capital of the world), the problem does not lay in the drugs or prostitutes themselves, but in those “drug and prostitution tourists” who are “ugly”.

The typical Dutch youth actually uses *less* drugs than the young people in parts of Europe where drugs are illegal. Not just less in frequency, but less in quantity, as well.

On a related note, the decline in marriage among the young tracks pretty close to that in the rest of Europe, whether or not prostitution is legal.

The recent political shift in the Netherlands to the right, while driven by a rejection of the left and immigration, has focused on clamping down on the “ugly” tourists, by restricting the drug trade and prostitution. That this is associated with morality is dubious, because it is seemingly done to *avoid* dealing with the issues of too much government and too many illegal aliens.

Which sounds all together familiar here in the US, where for years, the Republicans have “thrown bones” to conservatives on social issues to avoid dealing with major problems.

So the bottom line is that drugs and prostitution are not the real problem in the Netherlands. Never have been.


10 posted on 04/09/2011 9:31:06 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: marktwain

Hardly.
Not once have I seen a Libertarian argue about the consequences. Not once.

(Experiences may vary. Use as directed.)


11 posted on 04/09/2011 9:53:05 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: AustralianConservative
If the war against drugs is lost, then so are the wars against theft, fraud, rape, murder, arson, and illegal parking. Few, if any, such wars are winnable. So let us all do anything we choose."

The War on Drugs, like the War on Poverty, is a fedgov program that uses the New Deal Commerce Clause as it's constitutional authority. Do you want a War on Rape and a War on Murder run by fedgov?

This is the era of the Tea Party and the Tenth Amendment. Drug Warriors will be thrown under the bus. Count on it.

12 posted on 04/09/2011 11:32:37 AM PDT by Ken H
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To: Vaquero
...there is a significant percentage of the population that will have psychotic episodes from their herb use....

But would there be a significant percentage increase if pot were legalized? I've yet to see any evidence that fedgov drug policies have reduced drug use. According to the DOJ's own figures, the rate of addiction to opiates and cocaine was higher in 2000¹ than in 1900² when these drugs were legal.

______________________________________

¹http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1454298/posts?page=88#88.

Crunching the fedgov numbers, it works out to an addiction rate of ~1.5%.

______________________________________

²"By 1900, about one American in 200 was either a cocaine or opium addict."

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/06so.htm

For those in Rio Linda, 1 in 200 = 0.5%.

13 posted on 04/09/2011 12:02:54 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: marktwain

No, they’re not. Because drug users actions don’t just affect themselves (I wish it would) but their entire family.

Do you honestly think the government is going to ignore child neglect because the parents are stoners?


14 posted on 04/09/2011 12:11:52 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: Ken H

Reduction in drug use will not occur UNTIL there are really stiff penalties for users, and drug growing, manufacturing and selling is a capital crime in this country.

Right now there are no penalties except rehab and a short jail sentence for users.


15 posted on 04/09/2011 12:15:24 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: SatinDoll
Reduction in drug use will not occur UNTIL there are really stiff penalties for users, and drug growing, manufacturing and selling is a capital crime in this country.

"Iran has executed more than 10,000 narcotics traffickers in the last decade;"

http://www.payvand.com/news/04/mar/1012.html

______________________________________

"Iran has the highest proportion of heroin addicts in the world and a growing Aids problem." [2004 BBC report]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/3791889.stm

Right now there are no penalties except rehab and a short jail sentence for users.

Get used to that and worse, at least from a Drug Warrior's perspective. Failed big government programs like the War on Poverty and the War on Drugs are headed for the ash heap of history. We simply won't be able to afford such fool's errands.

16 posted on 04/09/2011 12:36:20 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Ken H

Americans love life, Muslims do not. Anyone with common sense would know that.

A stoner, faced with a hangman and rope, will give up dope rather go to the gallows.


17 posted on 04/09/2011 12:54:20 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: SatinDoll
Americans love life, Muslims do not. Anyone with common sense would know that.

Excuse me, but were you not advocating the Iranian approach in your prior post?

A stoner, faced with a hangman and rope, will give up dope rather go to the gallows.

So are you advocating hanging users or not?

18 posted on 04/09/2011 1:10:42 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Ken H

Yes, I believe drug users and traffickers should be executed.


19 posted on 04/09/2011 1:46:39 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: Vaquero

You are right that a significant percentage of people risk psychotic episodes when using – and that’s why I oppose it. The least supporters could do is admit that. Oxford University studies have.


20 posted on 04/09/2011 2:42:14 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: IrishCatholic

Yes, it would be lovely if pot users paid for themselves. Not going to happen. They’re choking our overburdened hospitals across the West (thank you taxpayers). They’re turning up to work late (and screaming discrimination when held to account). I’ve noticed too that many of these so-called libertarians and their enablers are very conspiratorial and/or legalistic. They have a real problem with free speech. It’s all about their drug-first rights and to hell with the rest of the community’s rights


21 posted on 04/09/2011 2:47:28 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: count-your-change

Great point about immigration. It’s funny you know how so-called libertarians are so soft on illegal immigrants but someone has to do their drug runs. They’re crowding out American hospitals.


22 posted on 04/09/2011 2:51:00 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Interesting perspective. Drugs and prostitution are good for the Dutch - but have you checked out their tax bills? Ever wondered why so many people are fleeing the nation? I know Dutch people myself. The nation is messed up but drugs or an adults-only libertarian mindset will blind the faithful to the obvious.

Even the New York Times admits that their crime waves are shocking. By the way, I also read there is a huge political backlash in the Netherlands against soft-on-drug laws, meaning that living with the mess is different than glamorizing the mess from across the pond.


23 posted on 04/09/2011 2:58:35 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: Ken H

“Do you want a War on Rape and a War on Murder run by fedgov?”

No. But I do want judges to stop patting criminals on the hands when they trash free-market businesses. I do want potheads prevented from choking up taxpayer-funded medical services. I do want us to learn from social experiment failures in socialist drugs-first Europe. I do want people to stop pretending that there is a war on drugs when your borders are wide open. In short: I want accountability. And it would be really nice if “free speech” libertarians stopped censoring anti-drug arguments. But that’s a dream.


24 posted on 04/09/2011 3:10:33 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: AustralianConservative

The Netherlands is an odd place. They are considering apartment-pyramids for their food animals, because land is so scarce.

But do not confuse the popularity of Geert Wilders with a moralistic, anti-drug and prostitution stance, which is mostly municipal in character. The two have different agendas.


25 posted on 04/09/2011 3:49:40 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: SatinDoll
No, they’re not. Because drug users actions don’t just affect themselves (I wish it would) but their entire family.

Using your logic from above, then the State should regulate everything, because everything you do affects other people in some way. The State could easily use this justification to ban religion, for example.

Just to see if you are willing to be consistent in your arguments, then we should go back to prohibition, shouldn't we?

26 posted on 04/09/2011 7:12:14 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: AustralianConservative
Oxford University studies have.

Post link to that. I don't believe you.

27 posted on 04/10/2011 6:40:58 PM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: TigersEye

You don’t have to believe me buddy. From the Times London:

Claiming that this evidence is new is less than flattering to the pharmacologists and the psychiatrists who have been giving warnings of the hazards since the 1970s. This evidence would have been available to Blair since his schooldays. When he was at Oxford, the then Professor of Pharmacology was Sir William Paton. He was one of the world’s experts on cannabis. In the 1970s Paton and his colleagues published many papers describing their observations, which had led him to conclude that even regular social cannabis smoking could induce schizophreniform symptoms. He listed these symptoms and they would have made worrying reading for any parent. Paton also drew attention to cases in which schizophrenia seemed to have been precipitated by taking cannabis in people who had previously been apparently unaffected by any form of psychiatric or psychological problems, and in whom there was no evidence that they were carrying a genetic burden that might make them liable to schizophrenic breakdown.

In one series of cases Paton and his colleagues found that there were several instances in which for some reason the person had had a psychiatric assessment, although without at the time evidence of psychological problems. Later they used cannabis and this had coincided with a psychotic breakdown.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/features/article767214.ece


28 posted on 04/10/2011 9:44:30 PM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: AustralianConservative

That is garbage. It isn’t based on any real study, it gives no figures and it is from the ruminations of a psychiatrist from over forty years ago. Thanks, I knew you didn’t have anything of substance.


29 posted on 04/10/2011 9:48:31 PM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: TigersEye

Okay, you sound paranoid – I’ll leave with your hippy health books. What would an Oxford University genius know anyway?


30 posted on 04/11/2011 5:30:38 AM PDT by AustralianConservative
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To: AustralianConservative
Okay, you sound paranoid

You have no basis for that statement.

– I’ll leave with your hippy health books.

You have no basis for that statement either other than uninformed ignorance.

What would an Oxford University genius know anyway?

What would a Harvard University lawyer, former Senator and sitting President know?

You sure know how to make a fool of yourself.

31 posted on 04/11/2011 9:12:47 PM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: SatinDoll; TigersEye

You want to hang or kill somebody who smokes pot? Hmm that seems a bit over the top to me. I see people do more evil & harm when they drink then smoke pot. And jail sentences are not short, we have people in jail for years for pot while other crooks get soft sentences. Most people I know & I am 53 have at least tried pot & I wouldn’t want to see them all executed. As the parent of a former drug addict who is clean & sober it saddens me to think you would want my daughter dead. People do make mistakes & they can change their lives. Granted not all will get clean & sober. Who here has not made mistakes? I made many in my life & learned from them.


32 posted on 04/11/2011 9:57:57 PM PDT by pandoraou812 (You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you.)
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To: pandoraou812

Glad your daughter is clean and sober.

What I’ve said over and over and over again on these pro-stoner threads is that any use of drugs should be treated thusly: first offense is rehabilitation and a year of community service; second offense is “cold turkey” and five years in prison; third strike and you’re dead.

Drug trafficking would be punishable as a capital crime, period.

I believe people should be given a chance to go straight. But from experience, due to a front row seat at my sister and BIL’s adventure as professional musicians, the life of drugs, sex and rock ‘n roll isn’t easy to quit. (I reared their son, witnessed his pain of abandonment, and accompanied him to therapists for years. He’s doing OK now.)

There is growing clinical evidence of a connection between using marijuana and the development of schizophrenia. Remember that young man, name of Loughner, who shot a bunch of people in Tucson, Arizona, just a couple months ago? He was using marijuana, not alcohol.

For information see: What doubles the risk of developing psychosis?

http://www.amenclinics.com/blog/tag/marijuana/


33 posted on 04/11/2011 10:18:10 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: SatinDoll
Jail is what got my daughter straight. Over 60 grand & I lost count of the rehabs. Funny thing is that the heroin dealers who sold her the dope were all jail house Muslim converts. So I see a link there. I never thought heroin was in her high school or in my town. I am blessed to have 2 beautiful grandsons. And her brothers never went down that route. I home school my 11 yr old daughter now. I know many people who say pot is a gateway drug. However pot costs more now then dope does. Kids can get a bag of dope in middle & high school for less the 15 dollars & it can last them days. I also think most kids start out drinking. I know I did.

Thankfully you were able to take care of your nephew. I too took in 2 boys & had other toss away kids living with us over the years. It is harder in my town to adopt a dog yet any woman can have a child. Thanks for the link.

34 posted on 04/11/2011 10:38:51 PM PDT by pandoraou812 (You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you.)
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To: pandoraou812

There is a common thread that runs among all pro-drug war posters. They’re kooks. It’s shouldn’t be surprising that they have homicidal tendencies.


35 posted on 04/11/2011 10:42:05 PM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: pandoraou812

You’re welcome to the link and good luck with all you’ve undertaken.


36 posted on 04/11/2011 10:56:15 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: pandoraou812

You notice they never link to the actual study just an article that references one.


37 posted on 04/11/2011 11:03:04 PM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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