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Considerations For SHTF Living & Bug Out Locations
SHTF Plan ^ | 4-4-2011 | Mac Slavo

Posted on 05/04/2011 4:43:43 PM PDT by blam

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To: familyop
It's the 60-80 mph winds here (110 mph wind load for building code), mostly, and yes, some extremes (-35, F, this winter). But more than that, propane prices over $4 (tourism, retirees). We're blessed with well over 300 sun days in my treeless area, but nearly no one takes full advantage of it (heating, drainback systems needed but too much work for most). ...mornings around 10, F, now, and some snows. I'm at over 9,000 feet just east of a few 14-ers (thus, the high winds most days).

Understood. No trees and propane definitely limit your options. The 300 days of sun sounds really good from the most "Langley" challenged location in the US (Western PA). I think we have maybe 35, fully sunny days on average. February is the pits. We are blessed with ample wood and natural gas.

I'm surprised they did not build more earth sheltered passive solar homes in that environment. Is that an option? We lived in one in Kansas City before returning to PA. It was very well designed with one of the first ground loop heat pumps (forced air with exchanger).
141 posted on 05/05/2011 9:07:27 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Time to beat the swords of government tyranny into the plowshares of freedom.)
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To: PA Engineer

Plus it has been really rainy this year here in Pittsburgh.


142 posted on 05/05/2011 9:29:31 PM PDT by Nowhere Man (General James Mattoon Scott, where are you when we need you? We need a regime change.)
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To: pyx
Please take some time from millions of dead fellow Americans to please respond fully to all five of my questions in Post #43. Thanks.

I am not sure what you are asking, the next Civil war (for lack of better words) is not going to be a medieval battle field where we charge at each other with swords or a Vietnam type guerrilla offensive where we have to run up and down a Ho-Chin-Min trail. So how many of what age & shape isn't going to matter as much as you think.

What's going to happen is some kind of spark in one or more of the major cities, maybe it will be a Rodney King or a Crown Heights type of incident, maybe there will be a scorching couple of days in the summer which causes regional blackouts, or maybe another Katrina or other natural disaster.

Whatever the spark, this time once the rioting and looting starts it's not going to stop, and it's going to spread to other cities. Obama is not strong enough to put it down even if he wanted to(See Cloward + Piven).

The Cities will be in flames and "No-Go" zones, while life will initially go on in the country relatively normal. There's plenty of stuff to loot in the cities, there's no reason for them to come out right away, they will kill each other fighting over their resources first.

City people are not self reliant, especially city Liberals, for example ask them why they don't own gun and they will tell you "I don't need one, I'll just call the police" and White city Liberals have been so feminized they will be lambs to the slaughter. They are all going to die waiting for Obama to come save them.

You'll have some squatters camps of refugees in many of the rest areas on the interstates on the outskirts of the cities, but full coordinated attacks on small towns dozens or 100s of miles away, it's not going to happen.

143 posted on 05/05/2011 9:38:50 PM PDT by qam1 (There's been a huge party. All plates and the bottles are empty, all that's left is the bill to pay)
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To: qam1
Whatever the spark, this time once the rioting and looting starts it's not going to stop, and it's going to spread to other cities. Obama is not strong enough to put it down even if he wanted to(See Cloward + Piven).

In spite of assertions put forth in the mid-60's by Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven, restoring "order" in local areas will be the job of local authorities. Also, the several Governors of the various States where these cities may be located are not likely to sit through turmoil within their own State. Further, the National Guard are unlikely to suddenly make themselves unavailable. And despite assertions I've read at various places to the contrary, the National Guard are very well organized and trained and I seem to recall hearing somewhere that they have access to heavy weapons.

IMO, given that the overwhelming majority of Americans (a wild-eyed guess is around 98% and I have absolutely no proof to backup that percentage) are law abiding and not prone to violent overthrow of their local, State or Federal government and therefore, a Civil War or a civil war or an uncivil war due to upheaval in a city (or overwhelming the system) is unlikely. Of course this is pure speculation on my part and it remains to bear itself out.

As I have said, planning and preparing for possible disasters is a wise and prudent thing. Again, I encourage people to read and learn from Kartographer's thorough and well laid out PDF available here and mentioned in Post #30.

144 posted on 05/05/2011 10:49:44 PM PDT by pyx (Rule#1.The LEFT lies.Rule#2.See Rule#1. IF THE LEFT CONTROLS THE LANGUAGE, IT CONTROLS THE ARGUMENT.)
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To: PA Engineer
"We are blessed with ample wood and natural gas."

Excellent! There's much more versatility than being used much (steam, for one).

"I'm surprised they did not build more earth sheltered passive solar homes in that environment. Is that an option?"

People in the Rockies, for the most part, are the laziest people that I've ever met. Digging through rock is hard work, and so is trying to develop an effective passive design (for mechanics, little data scattered all over in many tiny projects of the past). Passive design is over their heads.

For example, how many BTUs from the sun, at what altitude, with what kind of solar activity, in what exact part of the Rockies (degree-days and other considerations vary much from one spot to another), through how much and what kind of glazing, at what distance from glazing to thermal mass, with what size space, how much and what kind of insulation, and so on. As far as I know, low techs. are limited to developing something of their own (with elements most often borrowed from others), until they build something that works in a given square mile (remember the radically different weather from basin to basin, peak to peak, etc.). Upslope/downslope effects (precipitation).

Future occupants of such housing could probably sue easily, because courts would make hash of any reasonable (but complicated) arguments in favor of builders (courts, see Kornbluth's "Marching Morons"). Or that would be the reasoning of developers/builders, who like to get jobs done very quickly. Lossy (lossy thermal), boiler-driven, closed loop systems are licensed, approved, authorized, etc.

Earth sheltered houses also get many obstructions from planning and building offices. "Ooh, that's good and complicated! Let's call all of the big developers in on this one! They haven't made money for months!" Yes--the builders' rackets of the West. And you know, it's not crime, 'cause it's the "wild west!"

There aren't many who study thermal theory for low techs. Come to think of it, though, that kind of information is hard to find for non-engineering techs with little formal education. I'm working on it, though (not an engineer...not even close). Data from furnaces is not useful, as far as I know. We're heating with thermal from the sun--not kilowatts (except for indirect from the circulation pumps, I guess). BTUs from water, for example, is very useful, though.

On passive, a few, rare owner-builders toss a little into a design and hope that it helps. Active designs can be adjusted later on, as long as they were typically overbuilt (controllers, zones, valves, etc.). ...like mine. ;-)

Sorry for the hurried reply, but the weather's good for getting something done more quickly today. ;-)

BTW, the only way that I'll get degree-days even close for this area (high basin) is to mount a little weather station and hook it up (probably a one-wire connected to a small NetBSD box or something, to save on amp-hours). ...will get around to sealing and mounting the one-wire weather station stuff when possible. ...and adding more charging and capacity for that. There's no other weather station in this (geological) formation that I know of.


145 posted on 05/06/2011 11:40:25 AM PDT by familyop (Rome wasn't burnt in a day.)
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To: pyx
You seem to be obsessed with people over 45 and more than 25 pounds overweight (that would be me). However remember, on the plus side, we will take a lot longer to starve than all those skinny young folks, and eventually we won't be overweight anymore! And this old geezer has enough firepower to defend his home against random zombies and arm a few of his neighbors as well.

My economic situation hasn't been the best the last few years, so buying land and relocating isn't an option for me right now. But I do live on the edge of the Sierra Nevada foothills. If things get really bad, in two hours I can load my SUV with a goodly supply of rice, dried beans, and canned food, camping,prospecting, hunting, and fishing gear, and be at some very remote stream deep in a national forest, camping out and sluicing gold.

146 posted on 05/06/2011 12:03:03 PM PDT by Hugin ("A man'll usually tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear it"--- Open Range)
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To: Hugin
You seem to be obsessed with people over 45 and more than 25 pounds overweight

Obsessed ? No. Concerned ? Yes. :)

147 posted on 05/06/2011 12:22:22 PM PDT by pyx (Rule#1.The LEFT lies.Rule#2.See Rule#1. IF THE LEFT CONTROLS THE LANGUAGE, IT CONTROLS THE ARGUMENT.)
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To: cripplecreek

I’ve seen your pictures - the area is drop-dead beautiful... you’re lucky to live there.


148 posted on 05/07/2011 8:28:22 PM PDT by GOPJ (Osama bin SEALed - http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2009/05/terrifying-brilliance-of-islam.html)
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To: blam

interesting..along what I was thinking about lately.


149 posted on 05/28/2011 6:25:40 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (where is the Great Santini when we need him??)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie
Congressman Warns: “Those Who Can, Should Move Their Families Out Of the City”
150 posted on 05/28/2011 9:32:47 PM PDT by blam
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To: pyx

People over 25lbs overweight will likely last longer than those who are already underweight, or regular weight...when food is scarce...depending upon which of them has stored some rations....I’m 60....and probably in better shape than many 45 year olds....(and a few pounds overweight)....PLUS older people, in many cases, have better mental acuity for problem solving....IMHO


151 posted on 05/28/2011 9:56:32 PM PDT by goodnesswins (...both islam and the democrat plantation thrive on poverty)
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To: blam

I grew up in a rural community with lots of fresh water, farm land, fish and game. A perfect place to survive a melt-down. But that was years ago and if I went back in a SHTF situation, I would probably be seen as an outsider and not welcomed. I certainly would not be welcomed trying to homestead someone’s property. I have decided that I can survive in my suburban situation for quite a while - at least until the smoke settles, and then find an isolated area in the back country.


152 posted on 05/28/2011 10:54:32 PM PDT by NorseWood
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To: NorseWood
I suggest you get your 'isolated, out back place' settled now. A lot of people are saying the same thing...it could get crowded there.
153 posted on 05/28/2011 11:03:33 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

I do have a spot picked out, with several alternate locations.


154 posted on 05/28/2011 11:08:07 PM PDT by NorseWood
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To: NorseWood
Also....

When TSHTF, and things do really get out of control, we have plans to block the road ways and begin defending our rural neighborhoods and towns....I just don't know how much 'moving-around' you'll be able to do.
Anyone approaching our boundries will be viewed with suspicion and treated as an unwanted 'wanderer.'

155 posted on 05/28/2011 11:10:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
When TSHTF, and things do really get out of control, we have plans to block the road ways and begin defending our rural neighborhoods and towns....I just don't know how much 'moving-around' you'll be able to do. Anyone approaching our boundries will be viewed with suspicion and treated as an unwanted 'wanderer.'

You have used some phrases and wording of which I'm not quite certain.

Would you please explain what you mean when you say you would block road ways ?

Also, please help me understand what you mean by the term "treated as an unwanted wanderer" when you say, "Anyone approaching our boundries will be viewed with suspicion and treated as an unwanted 'wanderer.' ?

And lastly, what distance would you consider as boundries of your rural neighborhoods and towns ?

Many thanks in advance.

156 posted on 05/29/2011 3:38:50 AM PDT by pyx (Rule#1.The LEFT lies.Rule#2.See Rule#1. IF THE LEFT CONTROLS THE LANGUAGE, IT CONTROLS THE ARGUMENT.)
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To: blam

Thank you..I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be considering such a thing...this country has changed so much that in many ways, I would welcome living in a more remote, less urban area.


157 posted on 05/29/2011 4:32:20 AM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (where is the Great Santini when we need him??)
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To: pyx
"Would you please explain what you mean when you say you would block road ways?"

The roadway would be physically blocked and enforced with armed guards. If you're not identifable as a resident or it's necessary for you to proceed, you'll be turned back. We have Black residents, so don't start with that. A carload of young males, White or Black, will be turned back. (Unwanted wanderers)

We have a core group of friends and neighbors that are preparing/prepared and discussing these sort of things on a regular basis not in a meeting but as we're together (one on one) on a weekly basis

I live on a road that leads to beautiful white beaches and then dead-ends there. Only the people living on dead-end roads will be allowed to pass.

The boundries will be defined by easy to defend check points...a stream/creek with a bridge over it..you can't go around, etc. We have neighbors with bull dozers, back hoes and etc. My neighbor has a large landscaping company with large fuel tanks, 1,000 gallons of diesel and regular gasoline, he keeps those full these days.

I don't know what we'll do with obviously 'good' people in desperate need (especially with children) who show up begging. I've already been told that I won't be manning a blockade..."you're to soft hearted, Bill."

Now, mind you, this all assumes that law enforcement has broken down or has been overwhelmed which we worry will happen at some point...any government agency that maintains/restores law and order will be obeyed...we don't plan to fight the government unless they come to confisticate (bullies) our supplies for re-distribution. We define 'bullies' as anyone with designs on our supplies or contrary to our well-being.

Flexability and mature judgement are necessary skills.

158 posted on 05/29/2011 8:29:14 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Thank you for being complete in your reply.

There might be some things that you've stated (such as the change in proprietorship of taxpayer owned public road ways) that I would like to ask about and comment on in the future.

159 posted on 05/29/2011 4:05:14 PM PDT by pyx (Rule#1.The LEFT lies.Rule#2.See Rule#1. IF THE LEFT CONTROLS THE LANGUAGE, IT CONTROLS THE ARGUMENT.)
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To: blam
You mentioned a beach. I was also wondering about how you plan to control navigable waterways.

You mention above, that there would have to be a complete breakdown in law enforcement. However, I really can't recall anytime in the history of the US that there was a complete lack of law enforcement or a complete lack of government. (Incidentally, confiscatory taxation at Federal, State and Local levels, sadly, is already redistributed.)

In contrast, Japan recently went through some pretty serious challenges to significantly large segments of their society. Further, I don't recall seeing the Japanese citizenry setting up roadblocks and fending off (my words for lack of others) good people with starving children. I seem to recall seeing people generally pitching in to help others, seemingly without pre-conditions or hostility.

Recently, I seem to recall seeing exactly the same behavior after the tornado in Joplin, Missouri and the flooding victims along the Mississippi River. Everyone seemed to just pitched in to help others with food, supplies and manpower where needed.

160 posted on 05/29/2011 4:38:16 PM PDT by pyx (Rule#1.The LEFT lies.Rule#2.See Rule#1. IF THE LEFT CONTROLS THE LANGUAGE, IT CONTROLS THE ARGUMENT.)
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