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(Quebec) Judge Orders 3-Year-Old into Day Care for “Socialization” (nixes homeschooling)
Homeschool Legal Defense Association ^ | 5/6/2011

Posted on 05/10/2011 11:23:09 AM PDT by markomalley

Four children ages 9, 7, 5 and 3 from a homeschooling family in Notre-Dame-des-Bois in Québec, Canada have been ordered into public school for socialization. The Roman Catholic family, who have been homeschooling their children for four years, were reported to the youth protection services (YPS) for neglect and had a four-day trial in November 2010. The judge in the case, Judge Nicole Bernier, ordered that the children remain in school or in day care until YPS officials approved a plan for socialization. However, because of apparent bias against homeschooling and these parents, this is unlikely to ever happen.

HSLDA of Canada, a sister organization to HSLDA, has invested significant financial resources in the family’s defense. In a press release, Paul Faris, president of HSLDA of Canada, expressed dismay over the outcome.

“This is a shocking decision,” said Faris. “Even more concerning is the judge’s decision to order the younger children who were not of compulsory school age into day care for socialization.”

Faris believes the family was denied a fair trial.

“The judge refused to hear expert witnesses and evidence regarding the value of homeschooling over public schools,” he said. “Unfortunately the judge placed excess weight on protective service experts who found that one child’s hearing impairment ‘indicated’ that the parents could not be trusted and therefore all the children should be enrolled in public school programs.”

HSLDA President J. Michael Smith agreed.

“It’s incredible that a judge in Canada would order three-and-half and five-year-old children into public-funded day care for socialization reasons. From what we know of this Catholic family, they have worked very hard to provide an adequate education for their children which included opportunities for social interaction with others. We are gravely concerned with this decision,” he said.

HSLDA of Canada is appealing this decision. Faris noted that this year HSLDA of Canada has spent more money than any other year in defending homeschooling families.

Canadian homeschoolers are not alone in having to defend themselves against government officials with a bias against home education. HSLDA Director of International Relations Michael Donnelly noted that homeschoolers in other countries such as Sweden and Germany experienced similar difficulties.

“There is homeschooling freedom in most of Canada. However, it appears that Québec is more like Germany or Sweden when it comes to homeschooling regulations,” said Donnelly. “This judge’s decision reads like one from these countries that are repressing homeschooling. The philosophy represented by this judge’s decision must be resisted.”

We are asking our members to stand with us in support of HSLDA of Canada and this family. Investing in the defense of homeschooling freedom internationally is important. Those who would like to may support this family and the rest of our work supporting homeschooling freedom by making a donation to the Home School Foundation’s International Fund. It is our intent to stand behind HSLDA of Canada, this family and other persecuted international homeschoolers financially and with other support.


TOPICS: Politics; Society
KEYWORDS: canada; communism; govtabuse; homeschooling; liberalprogressivism; liberals; progressives; quebec; rapeofliberty; socialization; tyranny
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1 posted on 05/10/2011 11:23:13 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: metmom

Ping


2 posted on 05/10/2011 11:25:15 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (Anyone who says we need illegals to do the jobs Americans won't do has never watched "Dirty Jobs.")
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To: markomalley

Quebec is a pseudo-socialist authoritarian state that really, really, needs to be overthrown. Why the Rest of Canada puts up with their pedantic and childish tantrums escapes me.


3 posted on 05/10/2011 11:28:24 AM PDT by MeganC (NO WAR FOR OIL! ........except when a Democrat's in charge.)
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To: MeganC

Last neverendum, we just about threw them out. We had their bags packed and ready to go, yet they voted to stay.

This election, the Conservatives won a majority without having to rely upon Quebec to get it, so for the next four years, we won’t be hearing too many peeps from them.

The most the government should be involved, in my opinion, in terms of homeschooling, is to ensure the children are meeting or beating the government standards. The government should otherwise stay out of the way.


4 posted on 05/10/2011 11:35:45 AM PDT by Jonty30
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To: markomalley

Wow that is unreal. The rest is bad enough but how do you order a 3 year old to daycare? That isn’t even compulsory age.


5 posted on 05/10/2011 11:36:12 AM PDT by christianhomeschoolmommaof3
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To: markomalley

That’s Canada for ya.

God help us if such insanity ever happens here.

Such idiocy should be fought tooth and nail.


6 posted on 05/10/2011 11:40:59 AM PDT by scorchedearther
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To: markomalley; 2Jedismom; 6amgelsmama; AAABEST; aberaussie; adopt4Christ; Aggie Mama; agrace; ...

HOMESCHOOL PING

This ping list is for articles of interest to homeschoolers. I hold both the Homeschool Ping List and the Another Reason to Homeschool Ping List. Please freepmail me to let me know if you would like to be added or removed from either list, or both.

The keyword for the FREE REPUBLIC HOMESCHOOLERS’ FORUM is frhf.

7 posted on 05/10/2011 11:49:00 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: wagglebee; narses

Of interest to Catholics ping.


8 posted on 05/10/2011 11:50:56 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: scorchedearther

Such idiocy, if attempted here, would result in lots of holes in representatives of the government.


9 posted on 05/10/2011 11:52:14 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: markomalley

And for those of you who say, it’s Canada, it can’t happen here... I hope you’re right.

My husband and I have a bugout plan. Not super formal, we just know if the state ever shows up, that I’ll stall them and then we’ll get out and go stay with grandparents while our lawyers handle things.

My daughter is two. I’ll join HSLDA when she’s five. Don’t homeschool without it...


10 posted on 05/10/2011 11:52:44 AM PDT by JenB
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To: markomalley

Socialization is so simple for homeschoolers: just hire the neighborhood bully to beat them up and steal their lunch money, then get the bully to post a video of the incident on Youtube.


11 posted on 05/10/2011 11:55:47 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: markomalley

Any child with three siblings is being socialized in the proper sense of the word.
Home schooled children are receiving an excellent education too.
They are not, however, being indoctrinated with socialism, which is the real goal.


12 posted on 05/10/2011 11:57:38 AM PDT by Wiser now (Liberalism is immaturity, cloaked with the pretense of moral and intellectual superiority.)
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To: markomalley

Wanna bet this feminist judge is childless or even unmarried. Maybe on her third husband. How dare she rule on God given rights. She knows nothing about family.


13 posted on 05/10/2011 12:07:39 PM PDT by George from New England (Escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: webstersII

Conflict of interest. period.

How can a career judge begin to understand the concept of traditional family. Women who work out of the house and collect a paycheck have no right to deny the women who want to nurse and teach their own.


14 posted on 05/10/2011 12:09:49 PM PDT by George from New England (Escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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Don't Triple Dog Dare This Cat!


Give what you can
Or donate monthly, and a sponsoring FReeper will contribute $10

Save our poor Lazamataz!

15 posted on 05/10/2011 12:13:41 PM PDT by TheOldLady
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To: MeganC

“Why the Rest of Canada puts up with their pedantic and childish tantrums escapes me.”

Canada has neither airboats nor froggers, that’s why.


16 posted on 05/10/2011 12:37:47 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: TheOldLady

“Socialization”? at THREE! I can’t remember anything from when I was three and I’m from a big Italian family and have 8 mm movies of our socialization.


17 posted on 05/10/2011 12:40:23 PM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: GladesGuru

This is the province that demanded and got the 1st pick from all Canadian hockey players. Good thing they didn’t know about a twelve year old kid in Perry Sound named Robert Gordon Orr.


18 posted on 05/10/2011 12:42:32 PM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: markomalley

This would bring me to violence with the quickness.


19 posted on 05/10/2011 12:54:41 PM PDT by The Toll
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To: metmom

BTTT


20 posted on 05/10/2011 1:49:43 PM PDT by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: Mr. Silverback

Hoooboy! I think I’d be moving to the US if I were them.


21 posted on 05/10/2011 2:01:59 PM PDT by StarCMC (Sometimes you need a Jimmy Carter to get a Ronald Reagan.)
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To: Jonty30

Privatize the standards too, or the “standards” will require
exposure to degeneracy. A second thought: this would
put homeschoolers at risk if one kid was not mathematically
minded, or just took slower to reach the standard.


22 posted on 05/10/2011 4:34:18 PM PDT by cycjec
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To: cycjec

I’m not sure how you can privatize standards, since it is the parent’s doing the teaching. Unfortunantly some parent’s despite the best interests at heart, are not good teachers and, while most home schoolers do very well compared to the general population, it isn’t always the case.

Some people have been set at a permanent disadvantage because they were home-schooled by somebody who didn’t do the job properly.


23 posted on 05/10/2011 4:56:08 PM PDT by Jonty30
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To: Jonty30; wintertime; metmom

>>Some people have been set at a permanent disadvantage because they were home-schooled by somebody who didn’t do the job properly. <<

Oh, and they would have done SO much better in Public School, right?

I take your isolated incident and raise ya the fact that HALF of Detroit PS kids CAN’T READ. I hate to tell you this, but in most cases, those who didn’t learn at home, wouldn’t have learned in school either.


24 posted on 05/10/2011 5:33:33 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: Jonty30; netmilsmom
Some people have been set at a permanent disadvantage because they were home- public schooled by somebody who didn’t do the job properly.

Fixed it for you.

Public schools do not educate these days. They indoctrinate.

Kids aren't graded on quality of work but for *trying*. They are passed from one grade to the next because the school dare not hold them back or little Johnny or Suzie's mom will tear them a new one.

Public schools are an abysmal failure the vast majority of the time. Any child who doesn't learn in a homeschool setting will NOT learn in a public school setting.

If a one on one education isn't enough to instill some education, then herding the child through the public education prison system as part of a group isn't going to educate them either.

Every single argument that the anti-homeschool crowd tries to throw at homeschooling in a condemnation of it can be applied a hundredfold to the public school system.

25 posted on 05/10/2011 5:40:49 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

The problem isn’t having a public education system in-itself, because there was a time when the public education system was the best in the world.

The problem is that the institutions have been hijacked by those with an ill agenda. However, the American public is capable of taking back those same institutions if they try hard enough.


26 posted on 05/10/2011 6:11:48 PM PDT by Jonty30
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To: MeganC

I was vacationing in Quebec once with the family and it was at the time the French speakers were angry and talking about spliting off into their own country.

At a gas station a young man suggested it would be great if Quebec could join the US. I laughed.


27 posted on 05/10/2011 6:59:58 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: JenB

Better to join HSLDA now - without support, there may not be homeschooling when your daughter is five.


28 posted on 05/10/2011 7:31:23 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth
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To: Jonty30; metmom

>>The problem isn’t having a public education system in-itself, because there was a time when the public education system was the best in the world.<<

That’s not now. You can’t educate on memories and wishful thinking.

Right here, right now, a kid has a better chance of coming up with an education at home than in ANY public school. AND with the ability to purchase a curriculum on CD-ROM or online, I would say that any parent can homeschool and certainly better than the lib indoctrinated, Prussian school model we use here in the US can do.

Stick around a little longer than five months Jonty. You’ll learn that you still think in the terms that the MSM feed you.


29 posted on 05/10/2011 7:59:38 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: netmilsmom

Fundamentally, I agree with you in all respects. Parents should be responsible for the welfare of the child, and that works well when you have parents who take a vested interest in their children to make sure they grow up to become well-adjusted and productive adults.

However, their are parents out there who are so disinterested in their children’s welfare that those kids are, in effect, are orphans. I was one of them.

If these kids were left dependent upon their parents for an education, they would receive no education or very little. That’s the part I have trouble with, abandoning children to the whims of parents who wouldn’t care for them or are incapable of caring for them the way children should be.


30 posted on 05/10/2011 9:09:42 PM PDT by Jonty30
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To: Jonty30

>>If these kids were left dependent upon their parents for an education, they would receive no education or very little. That’s the part I have trouble with, abandoning children to the whims of parents who wouldn’t care for them or are incapable of caring for them the way children should be.<<

You don’t want to see the point. The Public Schools ARE NOT educating them either. They can’t read, they can’t do simple math.


31 posted on 05/11/2011 6:36:52 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: netmilsmom

Our schools in Canada are fine. Canadians score very well against international tests. However, I am well aware of how poorly American kids score in the world, especially considering how much your country spends per kid.

You need to break the unions, not close the schools. In Alberta, my province, there are a number of charter schools and the system is working well.

You need to fight for a system where the schools, teachers, and everybody feels the need to prove themselves.


32 posted on 05/11/2011 6:52:15 AM PDT by Jonty30
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To: SaraJohnson

The people from Quebec don’t know how good they have it.


33 posted on 05/11/2011 6:59:22 AM PDT by Jonty30
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To: Jonty30

Personally, I do not believe in institutionalizing children.


34 posted on 05/11/2011 7:00:59 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: Jonty30
However, their are parents out there who are so disinterested in their children’s welfare that those kids are, in effect, are orphans. I was one of them.

If these kids were left dependent upon their parents for an education, they would receive no education or very little. That’s the part I have trouble with, abandoning children to the whims of parents who wouldn’t care for them or are incapable of caring for them the way children should be.

I was one of those too Jonty30.

In my case, if my education had been left up to my parents, I would have been illiterate and working on my grandparent's cotton farm by age 12. As it was, the 4 of us were sent there every summer to work from a very young age. I was dragging a 50 pound sack of cotton by age 8 and 100 by age 12. School was my refuge and I knew that getting an education was my only way out - and with no help from my parents, who actively discouraged all 4 of us from high school and were SHOCKED when I decided to go to college.

There is no way I am an outlier...I see way too many disinterested parents still today.

35 posted on 05/11/2011 7:05:15 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: netmilsmom

And I don’t believe in abandoning children to their fate.

I’m fine with home schooling them. I’d probably be willing to do that if I had kids and found that I had the ability to teach them well.


36 posted on 05/11/2011 7:06:16 AM PDT by Jonty30
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To: netmilsmom
You don’t want to see the point

With all respect, you don't see a point (and there are many points)- not all parents are as good as you are, as interested in their kids as you are, and as invested as you are. There are way too many out there that either don't care or see their kids as a cash cow.

In a better world, children would be taken care of by their parents, but in the current world, too many times, the public school is the best thing going.

BTW, I don't really have an answer, but I just know what isn't realistic and that is shutting down all public schools and leaving a large percentage of children to the tender mercies of their parents.

37 posted on 05/11/2011 7:10:52 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: Jonty30

>>And I don’t believe in abandoning children to their fate.<<

LOL!!!!!
Spoken like a true social engineer.

So YOU volunteer and teach both the parent and the child how to raise and educate a child. Become a mentor, not a socialist.

Government and institutions are NOT the answer. Especially when you pick a pocket to do it.


38 posted on 05/11/2011 7:12:14 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: SoftballMominVA; metmom; wintertime

>>not all parents are as good as you are, as interested in their kids as you are, and as invested as you are. There are way too many out there that either don’t care or see their kids as a cash cow. <<

And the schools are?
Have you noticed that the Unions and their ilk care little about the kids?

Seriously, I’m there. I’m not a teacher and not a parent, but an employed observer with no dog in the fight. Those people care about the kids if it’s convenient. Individually, an employee cares but collectively, they don’t. And seeing the parents, tons more do than don’t.

Do you see what you’re saying? That schools raise kids better than parents? Really? Are you sure you’re on the right site?

The schools either don’t care or see the kids as a cash cow, too. And the more we take the attitude that “parents don’t care” the more they are given the opportunity not to. You see parents who have had their kids wisked away for six hours a day and told that they MUST do what the administration wants or risk consequences. You don’t see parents who have to parent. The schools are for that. THAT is the attitude those parents have been taught. You expect anything more?


39 posted on 05/11/2011 7:22:57 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: netmilsmom
Actually I do understand what I'm saying.

Yes, there are times that the teachers in a school care more about a child than the parents that created them. And that's just sad.

The devil is, as always, in the details. There are also very, very bad schools and very bad teachers that I wouldn't trust to watch my dog. It is important that parents have the freedom to determine the best place for their kids (as you have done) but not stand in the way of other legitimate choices.

I do think that as a nation we are going towards more funded options for parents, and I think this is a good thing.

Who knows, maybe more parents would be more involved if they had more options other than home-school, private school (that they pay for), or public school.

40 posted on 05/11/2011 7:31:40 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: netmilsmom
Seriously, I’m there. I’m not a teacher and not a parent, but an employed observer with no dog in the fight.

Wait...I'm confused... you are NOT a parent? I thought you had two daughters?

41 posted on 05/11/2011 7:35:04 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: netmilsmom

I’m not a social engineer, but I’m not predatory either.

I do think that it is a person’s right to seek their destiny without interference, even to the point of death. However, I also think there is room for helping those not able to help themselves.


42 posted on 05/11/2011 7:40:57 AM PDT by Jonty30
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To: SoftballMominVA

>>Wait...I’m confused... you are NOT a parent? I thought you had two daughters?<<

I do have daughters. They are not in PS. Therefore I see the school through the eyes of an employee.


43 posted on 05/11/2011 8:17:19 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: Jonty30

>>I’m not a social engineer, but I’m not predatory either.

I do think that it is a person’s right to seek their destiny without interference, even to the point of death. However, I also think there is room for helping those not able to help themselves.<<

You are a social engineer if you believe that government is “helping”.


44 posted on 05/11/2011 8:20:09 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: SoftballMominVA

>>Who knows, maybe more parents would be more involved if they had more options other than home-school, private school (that they pay for), or public school. <<

We are in full agreement there.
The problem is that schools blackmail parents into doing what they want with the kids. They have for years. Now you have parents who spend the majority of their day away from their parents. These people look at school as a total immersion because the schools have taken that role and run with it.

Wonder why people don’t parent? They have been basically told that they shouldn’t and don’t have to.


45 posted on 05/11/2011 8:24:15 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice.)
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To: WorkingClassFilth

There will be homeschooling. The mass of homeschoolers out there is big enough that it will take a lot to get rid of us. And even then.... you can have my kids but you’ll have to take my guns, too.


46 posted on 05/11/2011 8:24:49 AM PDT by JenB
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To: netmilsmom
not all parents are as good as you are, as interested in their kids as you are, and as invested as you are. ( SoftballmominVA)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Netmilsmom, I noticed your response to the comment above. We see this NEA talking point often.

So..... Some parents neglect their children. I have an idea!

Let's have NEA teachers snatch all newborns from the arms of their mothers in the the delivery room. They could then be raised ( like Perdue chickens) in government newborn schools. Hey! Why not? Some parents could neglect their children.

Also....Regarding the 47% of people in Detroit who are illiterate:

When government schools neglect children should the children be forced to homeschool?

Honestly....For many of those 47% who can not read it **literally** would have been better for them to have **never** gone to government school! They would still be illiterate but they would have been spared the school generated toxic socialization of hyper-sexualization and gang culture as well as the paralyzing Marxist indoctrination of victimhood. Many people overcome illiteracy as adults and go on to lead very successful lives, but emotional and spiritual damage too often has eternal consequences.

And, finally,.....Where are the studies that prove institutional schools teach anything at all? Hm? How much is learned in the class and how much knowledge is acquired entirely due to the child and his parents’ efforts IN THE HOME!!! ???? Are these government schools that spend $13,000 to $26,000 per year per student merely sending home a curriculum for the parents and child to follow in the home?

These are very basic questions and any “professional” educator should be able to provide links to studies in an instant, but in all these years NO teacher or professor of education has ever given me a link. How can anyone run a school and not know **exactly** where ( home or classroom) the knowledge is acquired and who ( parent, child, teacher) is doing the hard work of teaching???? And, these guys and gals want to be thought of as “professionals”? UNBELIEVABLE!

My conclusion:

If every government school in this nation closed tomorrow the **same** children who are getting an education today would get one tomorrow. Those who aren't getting an education would be at minimum be spared the emotionally debilitating and constant indoctrination of victimhood and the physical danger of these prison-like “schools”.

47 posted on 05/11/2011 8:25:57 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: netmilsmom

Nice chatting with you...have a pleasant day...I’m out


48 posted on 05/11/2011 8:30:41 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: netmilsmom

Unless you are willing to take direct reponsibility for children who are unfortunate to be born to the wrong sort of parents, than there needs to be room for aid from the government. You can keep the government on a short leash.

The only alternative is to tell the child, “sucks to be you”, which makes you predatory.

I’m not prepared to doom kids to fates that were not of their choosing. I just happen to think there is a happy medium between the two somewhere.


49 posted on 05/11/2011 9:20:51 AM PDT by Jonty30
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To: netmilsmom

You go girl.

That’s exactly right.


50 posted on 05/11/2011 10:14:55 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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