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US SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT STATES THAT OBAMA IS NOT ELIGIBLE TO BE PRESIDENT
naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com ^ | 06/21/2011 | Leo Donofrio

Posted on 06/21/2011 1:55:34 PM PDT by rxsid

"US SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT STATES THAT OBAMA IS NOT ELIGIBLE TO BE PRESIDENT.

The title of this article is correct. After having completed a more thorough review of the relevant US Supreme Court cases discussing the Constitution’s natural-born citizen clause, I have discovered precedent which states that a natural-born citizen is a person born in the jurisdiction of the US to parents who are citizens. Read that again. I said precedent, not dicta. The precedent holds that Obama is not eligible to be President of the United States.

Up until the publication of this report today, all discussion of the natural-born citizen issue (from both sides of the argument) agreed there had never been a precedent established by the US Supreme Court, and that the various cases which mentioned the clause did so in “dicta”.

Dicta are authoritative statements made by a court which are not binding legal precedent.

Black’s Law Dictionary defines “precedent” as a “rule of law established for the first time by a court for a particular type of case and thereafter referred to in deciding similar cases“.

Precedent that must be followed is known as binding precedent. Under the doctrine of stare decisis, a lower court must honor findings of law made by a higher court. On questions as to the meaning of federal law including the U.S. Constitution, statutes, and regulations, the U.S. Supreme Court’s precedents must be followed.

It can no longer be denied that there is controlling US Supreme Court precedent concerning the definition of a natural-born citizen according to Article 2 Section 1 of the US Constitution. I predict satori will overcome those of you who have labored over this issue. This is not a remote obscure reading. It is, when revealed, a clear undeniable holding and binding precedent established by the highest Court of our nation which specifically defines an Article 2 Section 1 natural-born citizen as a person born in the US to parents who are citizens.

Therefore, Obama – according to US Supreme Court precedent – is not eligible to be President.

PRECEDENT ESTABLISHED BY MINOR V. HAPPERSETT

The direct US Supreme Court precedent is stated in Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875). Furthermore, the precedent stated in Minor is consistent with other US Supreme Court cases – both before and after Minor – which discuss the natural born citizen issue. While that part of the holding in Minor regarding woman’s suffrage was superseded by the 19th Amendment – which Constitutionally established a woman’s right to vote – the rest of the case is good law. And the remaining precedent stated regarding the definition of “natural-born citizen” – with regard to Article 2 Section 1 of the US Constitution – is still binding upon all lower courts.

Therefore, lower court decisions – such as the holding in Arkeny v. Governor of the State of Indiana – which have misconstrued the US Supreme Court’s holding in Minor v. Happersett are wrong. Below, we will review what the Indiana Court of Appeals had to say and explain why they got it wrong. But first we must revisit Minor v. Happersett.

THE SUPREME COURT IN MINOR V. HAPPERSETT DIRECTLY CONSTRUED THE US CONSTITUTION’S ARTICLE 2 SECTION 1 NATURAL BORN CITIZEN CLAUSE

Before revisiting Minor, we must revisit Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) to review a clearly erroneous statement made by Justice Gray concerning the prior holding in the Minor case:

“In Minor v. Happersett, Chief Justice Waite, when construing, in behalf of the court, the very provision of the Fourteenth Amendment now in question, said: ‘The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.’ “ (Wong Kim Ark at 655.)

This unfortunate remark by Justice Gray contains a clearly erroneous statement. The Supreme Court in Minor did not construe the 14th Amendment as to the issue of citizenship. Gray is absolutely wrong. The Court in Minor construed Article 2 Section 1, not the 14th Amendment. For over a century, it has been wrongly assumed that the Court in Minor did construe the 14th Amendment, and that the holding of Minor was later superseded by Wong Kim Ark. This is not correct.

A more careful reading of the Supreme Court’s opinion in Minor makes it clear that it did not construe the 14th Amendment with regard to the citizenship of the woman who wished to vote. The question presented was whether, since the adoption of the 14th Amendment, women had gained the right to vote. The Supreme Court in Minor held that nowhere in the Constitution, including the 14th Amendment, was anyone, man or woman, granted a right to vote. And it was only this part of the Minor case which was superseded by the 19th Amendment.

The other issue decided by the Court in Minor required the Supreme Court to determine if the woman was, in fact, a US citizen. As to this determination, the Court did not construe the 14th Amendment. In fact, the Court specifically avoided construing the 14th Amendment with regard to her citizenship. Instead, the Supreme Court in Minor chose to construe Article 2 Section 1:

“There is no doubt that women may be citizens. They are persons, and by the fourteenth amendment ‘all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof ‘ are expressly declared to be ‘citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.’ But, in our opinion, it did not need this amendment to give them that position …

“The fourteenth amendment did not affect the citizenship of women any more than it did of men. In this particular, therefore, the rights of Mrs. Minor do not depend upon the amendment. She has always been a citizen from her birth, and entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizenship. The amendment prohibited the State, of which she is a citizen, from abridging any of her privileges and immunities as a citizen of the United States; but it did not confer citizenship on her. That she had before its adoption. If the right of suffrage is one of the necessary privileges of a citizen of the United States, then the constitution and laws of Missouri confining it to men are in violation of the Constitution of the United States, as amended, and consequently void. The direct question is, therefore, presented whether all citizens are necessarily voters. (Emphasis added.)

There you have it. The Court stops short of construing the 14th Amendment as to whether the woman in question was a US citizen. The Court made a certain, direct determination that Mrs. Minor was a US citizen before the adoption of the 14th Amendment and that she did not need the 14th Amendment to be a US citizen.

The Court then, having determined that she was a US citizen, avoided any construction of the 14th Amendment as to her citizenship status. Therefore, the holding in Minor is in no way superseded by Wong Kim Ark.

The Court in Minor went on to decide the issue of whether citizens are granted a right to vote by the Constitution, holding that it did not. Again, this part of the holding was superseded by the 19th Amendment, but the determination that Mrs. Minor was a “natural-born citizen” is still controlling precedent.

Since the Court in Minor specifically avoided construing the 14th Amendment as to citizenship, it is clear that Justice Gray’s statement – concerning the citizenship passage by Justice Waite in Minor – was clearly erroneous. The Supreme Court in Minor chose to construe Article 2 Section 1 instead of the 14th Amendment. As such, Minor is the only US Supreme Court case which has directly construed the Article 2 Section 1 natural-born citizen clause. Therefore, Minor’s construction below creates binding legal precedent:

“Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization. This is apparent from the Constitution itself, for it provides that ‘no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,‘ and that Congress shall have power ‘to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.’ Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.

“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.“ (Emphasis added.)

Whether the holding here was influenced by Vattel is not truly important. Sure, it looks just like Vattel’s definition, but Vattel does not make legal precedent – the US Supreme Court does. All that matters here is what the Supreme court held. So we must carefully examine the actual words stated by the Supreme Court. We must not allow ourselves to be guided by what the Supreme Court did not say. What the Court actually said is what makes law.

In the above passage, the Court noted that Mrs. Minor was born in the US to parents who were citizens. The Court stated that such persons were “natural-born citizens”. The Court also stated – as to such persons – that their “citizenship” was never in doubt.

By recognizing Mrs. Minor as a member of the class of persons who were natural-born citizens, they established her citizenship. Establishing her citizenship was required before they could get to the issue of whether she had the right to vote. In doing so, the Court in Minor directly construed Article 2 Section 1 of the US Constitution.

The Court also noted that some authorities include as “citizens” those born in the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of the parents. The Court refers to these people as a different “class”. The Court in Minor refused to comment on the “citizenship” of such persons since Mrs. Minor was not in that class. They didn’t need to reach the 14th Amendment to determine if Mrs. Minor was a US citizen since the Court previously established that she was a “natural-born citizen”. Read the following again:

“It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.“

This class is specifically defined as “natural-born citizens” by the Court. The other class – those born in the US without citizen “parents” – may or may not be “citizens”. But the Minor Court never suggested that this other class might also be natural-born citizens.

It’s quite the opposite. The Minor Court makes clear that this class are not Article 2 Section 1 natural-born citizens. If this other class were natural-born there would be no doubt as to their citizenship.

The Minor Court refrained from making a “citizenship” determination as to that class, but the Court did note that they were a different class. Later, in 1898, the Court in Wong Kim Ark took the question on directly as to who is a citizen under the 14th Amendment, but that case did not directly construe Article 2 Section 1, whereas Minor did.

In order to avoid construing the 14th Amendment, the Court in Minor had to define those who fit into the class of “natural-born citizens”. Mrs. Minor fit into that class. Mr. Obama does not.

This is so very evident by the fact that the Minor Court specifically states that the “citizenship” of those who have non-citizen parents was historically subject to doubt. Whether the 14th Amendment nullified those doubts was irrelevant to the Court in Minor, since Mrs. Minor was a natural-born citizen.

The 14th Amendment specifically confers only “citizenship”. In Minor, the US Supreme Court directly recognized that natural-born citizens were a class of citizens who did not need the 14th Amendment to establish citizenship. The class of natural-born citizens was perfectly defined in the Minor case.

Therefore, we have a direct determination by the US Supreme Court which defines a natural-born citizen as a person born in the US to parents who are citizens. The citizenship of this class has never been in doubt. The citizenship of the other class was in doubt. But even if that doubt was erased – as to their citizenship – that they are not natural-born citizens was established as precedent by the Supreme Court in Minor. In order for that precedent to be reversed, one of two things are necessary:

- a Constitutional amendment which specifically defines “natural-born Citizen” more inclusively than Minor did , or;

- a Supreme Court case which overrules the definition of natural-born citizen in the Minor case

We have neither.

Minor was decided seven years after the adoption of the 14th Amendment. The Supreme Court in Minor did not consider anyone but those born of citizen parents on US soil to be natural-born citizens. Later, in Wong Kim Ark, the Supreme Court stated that persons born on US soil to (some) alien parents were “citizens”, but that case specifically construed only the 14th Amendment.

Read again Justice Gray’s statement as to Minor, “In Minor v. Happersett, Chief Justice Waite, when construing, in behalf of the court, the very provision of the Fourteenth Amendment now in question, said…“ Nope. Not true. Gray was wrong in that Justice Waite did not construe the 14th Amendment in the quoted passage. Chief Justice Waite construed Article 2 Section 1. Whereas, Justice Gray construed the 14th Amendment. Therefore, the two cases are not in conflict.

ARKENY V. GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF INDIANA

The Minor case has been severely misconstrued in the Arkeny opinion issued by the Indiana Court of Appeals. That court quoted Minor’s natural-born citizen language, then stated:

“Thus, the Court left open the issue of whether a person who is born within the United States of alien parents is considered a natural born citizen.”

False. The Minor Court did not leave that question open. Nowhere in the Minor opinion does it state that the class of persons who are natural-born citizens is an open question. The Arkeny Court has it backwards.

The Supreme Court in Minor stated that the “citizenship” of persons who were not natural born citizens was an open question.

That is the most important sentence I’ve ever written at this blog. So please read it again. [edit: emphasis added] The “citizenship” of those born to non-citizen parents was a question that the Minor Court avoided. But they avoided that question by directly construing Article 2 Section 1. In doing so, the Supreme Court in Minor defined the class of persons who were born in the US to citizen parents as “natural-born citizens”.

Since Minor, no Amendment has been adopted which changes that definition, and no other Supreme Court case has directly construed Article 2 Section 1.

The Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark only construed the question of who was a “citizen” under the 14th Amendment, it did not construe Article 2 Section 1. Therefore, Minor and Wong Kim Ark do not compete with each other at all. Minor is the standing precedent for construction of the natural-born citizen clause in Article 2 Section 1, and Wong Kim Ark is the standing precedent as to “citizenship” under the 14th Amendment.

WONG KIM ARK SPECIFICALLY DEFERRED TO PRIOR PRECEDENT REGARDING THE DEFINITION OF NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

That the majority opinion in Wong Kim Ark limited its holding strictly to the issue of 14th Amendment citizenship – and did not make any new determination as to Article 2 Section 1 – is evident from the following statement by Gray regarding the dissent by Justice Curtis in the Supreme Court’s earlier ruling in Dred Scott v. Sandford:

“In Dred Scott v. Sandford, (1857) 19 How. 393, Mr. Justice Curtis said:
‘The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, ‘a natural-born citizen.’ It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.’
19 How. 60 U. S. 576. And, to this extent, no different opinion was expressed or intimated by any of the other judges.”

At first glance, Gray’s reliance upon the dissent’s passage in the Dred Scott case would appear to contradict everything I have written above. But it doesn’t. It actually confirms my analysis.

Justice Gray chooses his words carefully and so we must examine them carefully. Note where Gray says, “And, to this extent, no different opinion was expressed or intimated by any of the other judges.” Well, if we are talking only about “citizenship”, then – to this extent – Justice Gray is correct. But if we are talking about the definition of a “natural-born citizen”, then Gray is grossly mistaken.

The Dred Scott majority may not have expressed a different opinion as to “citizenship”, but the majority’s definition of a natural-born citizen is vastly different than that of Justice Curtis in his dissent. The majority opinion in Dred Scott, citing Vattel directly, stated:

“The citizens are the members of the civil society, bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority; they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or natural-born citizens are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”
Again:
“I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen, for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country. The inhabitants, as distinguished from citizens, are foreigners who are permitted to settle and stay in the country.”
Vattel, Book 1, cap. 19, p. 101.

From the views here expressed, and they seem to be unexceptionable…”

Unexceptionable is defined as; ” not open to any objection or criticism.” The Supreme Court majority, in the Dred Scott case, clearly states that a natural-born citizen is a person born in the US to parents who are citizens. Therefore, Justice Gray’s reliance upon the dissent in the Dred Scott case is strictly limited to its discussion of “citizenship” by Gray’s very choice of the words, “to this extent”.

Since Gray stated that none of the other justices in the Dred Scott case expressed a different opinion than Curtis did in his dissent, it is obvious that Gray’s statement only applies to general citizenship, and not to the definition of those who fall into the class of natural-born citizens. The majority in Dred Scott did, in fact, express a completely different opinion than Curtis on the issue of who was an Article 2 Section 1 natural-born citizen.

Gray’s use of the words, “to this extent” – with regard to the dissent by Curtis – indicates that the extent to which the holding in Wong Kim Ark applies is to the definition of “citizenship”, not to the definition of who is a natural-born citizen eligible to be President. The precedent stated by the Court in Minor still stands to this day.

THE US SUPREME COURT DEFINITION OF PRECEDENT

In 1996, the US Supreme Court’s majority opinion by Justice Breyer in Ogilvie Et Al., Minors v. United States, 519 U.S. 79 (1996), stated that when the Court discusses a certain “…reason as an ‘independent’ ground in support of our decision”, then that reasoning is not simply dictum:

“Although we gave other reasons for our holding in Schleier as well, we explicitly labeled this reason an ‘independent’ ground in support of our decision, id., at 334. We cannot accept petitioners’ claim that it was simply a dictum.”

The Supreme Court in Minor specifically construed Article 2 Section 1 by defining – as natural-born citizens – those persons born in the US to parents who were citizens.

Again, the Supreme Court specifically avoided the 14th Amendment, by specifically construing Article 2 Section 1.

In order to determine whether Mrs. Minor had the right to vote, the Court first needed to determine if she was a US citizen. They determined that she was a citizen because she was in the class of “natural-born citizens”. And, in doing so, they made it clear that persons born of non-citizen parents were not natural-born citizens.

The Court left open the question of whether those born of non-citizen parents were “citizens”. But the Court did not leave open their specific construction of Article 2 Section 1. Their definition of a “natural-born citizen” was the core reason they found Mrs. Minor to be a citizen. Therefore, the Minor Court established binding precedent as follows:

“…[A]ll children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners...”

Please also note that the Court here makes specific reference to both aliens and foreigners as distinguished from natural-born citizens. Aliens are just that, aliens. They are not citizens. But we have always had many foreigners in this country who were citizens. Those who came here from foreign lands were foreigners naturalized as citizens. Some who were born in the US with dual citizenship – like Obama – were also citizens of the nation of their parents. These are citizens, but also foreigners. The Court in Minor made the careful distinction that a natural-born citizen is not an alien or a foreigner.

CITIZENS MAY BE BORN OR NATURALIZED

A common misconception of those who argue in favor of Obama’s eligibility is that if one is, at the time of their birth, a US citizen, then that person is also a natural-born citizen. False. This was unequivocally established by the majority holding in Minor, which states:

“Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization. This is apparent from the Constitution itself, for it providesthat ‘no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,’and that Congress shall have power ‘to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.’ Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”

Again, at first glance this appears to provide a neat little soundbite for Obama supporters. But it doesn’t. The quote above is taken out of context. The Court’s opinion goes on to state:

“Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided…that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since.”

Here, the Minor Court cites the first naturalization act of 1790 to the effect that persons born of US citizen parents – outside the jurisdiction of the US – are “considered as natural-born citizens”. So, here we can see that while the Minor Court only recognizes two paths to citizenship, birth and naturalization… it is clear that some persons who, at the time of their birth, are US citizens, require naturalization for such status.

So, it’s clear that while there are only two paths to US citizenship, birth and naturalization, those two paths sometimes merge. But naturalized citizens are not eligible to be President. (The Minor Court failed to mention that the words “natural-born” were repealed from the naturalization act of 1795.)

Additionally, the current US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual, at “7 FAM 1131.6-2 Eligibility for Presidency“, comments on the 1790 act as follows:

“This statute is no longer operative, however, and its formula is not included in modern nationality statutes. In any event, the fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant to a statute does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a citizen for Constitutional purposes.”

This is most likely because the statute did not actually deem such a person to be a natural-born citizen, the act simply stated that such a person was to be “considered as” a natural-born citizen.

The Minor Court also noted that the “substance” of the 1790 act, which granted US citizenship at birth via naturalization, had remained as law up until 1875 when the Minor case was decided. So, clearly, while citizens may either be born or naturalized, some born citizens are simultaneously naturalized at birth. Naturalized citizens are not natural-born citizens. Therefore, they are not eligible to be President.

I am not arguing that Obama was naturalized. But Minor does establish that not all “born citizens” are “natural-born”. Minor also gives an unequivocal definition of who fits into the class of natural-born citizens. Obama does not fit into that class. Born in the US to a citizen mother and a British/Kenyan father, Obama was born with dual nationality and dual allegiance, part US citizen, part foreigner. Minor makes a clear distinction between natural-born citizens and aliens or foreigners.

No Constitutional amendment supersedes Minor by defining natural-born citizen in a more inclusive way. No US Supreme Court case has overruled it. Justice Gray’s statement that the Court in Minor construed the 14th Amendment in the passage quoted is wrong. The Court in Minor directly construed Article 2 Section 1 while directly avoiding construction of the 14th Amendment.

The Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark directly construed the 14th Amendment and specifically avoided construction of Article 2 Section 1. The two case are not in contradiction. They are consistent.

Wong Kim Ark is specifically limited to determining who is a citizen under the 14th Amendment.

Minor is specifically limited to determining who is a US citizen, natural-born.

According to the US Supreme Court precedent established by Minor, Obama is not eligible to the office of President of the United States. [Edit: emphasis added]

Leo C. Donofrio, Esq."

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/us-supreme-court-precedent-states-that-obama-is-not-eligible-to-be-president/


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Government; History; Miscellaneous; Politics
KEYWORDS: certifigate; chiefjusticewaite; donofrio; eligibility; hopespringseternal; june2011; leodonofrio; naturalborncitizen; obama; palin; precedent; scotus; scotusbirther; scotusprecedent; thistimeforsure
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To: BuckeyeTexan

No, Leo is not to whom I addressed the post. You are the ‘stealthy obamanoid’, and you started your posts on this thread with little insults aimed at doing the alinsky on anyone not in your anti-birther clique. Your stealthy efforts to ridicule are not so well hidden with Freepers, so why not be more honest and stop trying to toss insults then seek to dissemble when one is tossed back at you? Have you ever spent time on a thread not insulting anyone you deem a ‘birfer’? I can’t recall a single thread on the birth issues where you have been anything more than an insulting little apologist for barry’s fraudulent games.


51 posted on 06/21/2011 4:51:04 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Kleon
I think you're missing the point. Leo doesn't attempt to support his claim by pointing to the word "naturalization" in the title of a law. He's asserting that a law which grants citizenship is, in and of itself, an act of naturalizing a group of citizens. (i.e. A natural-born citizen does not require a law to clarify his status.)

The Minor Court also noted that the “substance” of the 1790 act, which granted US citizenship at birth via naturalization, had remained as law up until 1875 when the Minor case was decided. So, clearly, while citizens may either be born or naturalized, some born citizens are simultaneously naturalized at birth.

52 posted on 06/21/2011 4:58:23 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. *4192*)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

Dunno why people are dissin’ Leo, he was one of the trailblazers in showing the usurper was ineligible by parentage. The BC was an obvious Soros distraction, sad to see so many fell for it.


53 posted on 06/21/2011 4:58:54 PM PDT by 83Vet4Life
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To: MHGinTN; BuckeyeTexan
If you're talking about this...Recent WND Inquiries Appear To Have Established Obama’s Birth In Hawaii.
...then you need to closely read the end...
I am writing this to clear your attention spans for what will be the most authoritative and well documented analysis I have to offer on the dual national issue concerning Obama’s perpetual POTUS eligibility dilemma. I do not want the circus to obstruct the law.

The only thing "settled" in his mind, according to that article, was the place of birth based upon the immigration files.

And if this...The BC issue and the birther circus surrounding it have served Obama well.
...is the offending statement read it again noting my emphasis.
It never has been about the BC or place of birth. That was the direction the debate was steered, far away from the issue of natural born citizenship were the good ship "I Don't Know My Pop" runs aground.

54 posted on 06/21/2011 5:01:05 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: rxsid

You betcha! It’s been there all along.


55 posted on 06/21/2011 5:05:41 PM PDT by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/15/08 and why?)
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To: MHGinTN

I haven’t insulted anyone on this thread, yet. But it’s early.

Y’all twist anything I say to into something that was not intended or implied. Y’all b*tch when I disagree with you and b*tch even more when I agree with you.

If I mean to insult anyone, it won’t be a “stealthy effort to ridicule.” I’ll make my contempt perfectly damn clear.


56 posted on 06/21/2011 5:09:56 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. *4192*)
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To: MHGinTN
I almost got it totally right. I figured as much.
I was looking it up and replying while you made your defining reply.

I've always said it didn't matter where he was born and it still doesn't.

57 posted on 06/21/2011 5:14:11 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Herbster

Thank you!!! I was just being silly, so that is why I spelled it that way.


58 posted on 06/21/2011 5:14:15 PM PDT by Squeeky ("Truth is so rare that it is delightful to tell it. " Emily Dickinson)
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To: rxsid

Regarding the smiley face “A”: That one act alone typifies the degenerate and disrespectful nature of the “effete corp of impudent snobs” that runs interference for this administration. They should use it as their logo.


59 posted on 06/21/2011 5:18:37 PM PDT by Faith
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To: Squeeky; Silly
I was just being silly, so that is why I spelled it that way.
You can't be Silly. That user name is already taken. {;^)
60 posted on 06/21/2011 5:24:20 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: philman_36

Agreed. Leo has been clear about his opinion of the BC issue from the beginning.


61 posted on 06/21/2011 5:26:21 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. *4192*)
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To: Faith
That one act alone typifies the degenerate and disrespectful nature of the “effete corp of impudent snobs” that runs interference for this administration.

Remember this from the other day?

“Sometimes, it appears that criminals want to be caught,” says Tamara Loverich, Ph.D., a forensic psychologist and professor of psychology at Eastern Michigan University.
“But another possibility is that they’re so cocky they actually think they’ll get away with it.”

62 posted on 06/21/2011 5:27:48 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Kleon
I don't think we'll ever sort out how a pro-gay-marriage 9/11 truther who wanted Bush tried for treason ever became the Constitutional scholar of choice on this forum.
WOW! It seems like you should be able to back that up with something...other than rumors by Fogbow and related sites that is, Mr. I'm a lawyer.

Still waiting...

63 posted on 06/21/2011 5:36:18 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: philman_36
I don't think we'll ever sort out how a pro-gay-marriage 9/11 truther who wanted Bush tried for treason ever became the Constitutional scholar of choice on this forum.

WOW! It seems like you should be able to back that up with something...other than rumors by Fogbow and related sites that is, Mr. I'm a lawyer.

Do you think I'm just making this stuff up? It came from the dude's own blog!

64 posted on 06/21/2011 5:41:27 PM PDT by Kleon
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To: BuckeyeTexan
"My interest in Leo Donofrio is strictly based on his legal analysis. He sticks to discussion of the legal facts, which is what interests me. He discounts emotional ramblings and agenda-driven bending of the law."

That, and his historical research, is precisely why I "follow" him at his blog and why my tagline has had a quote from him for a long time now. It's because of him, and a select few others that got me interested in the NBC issue and the history surrounding it, back in 2008.

He doesn't need to be a Conservative across the board to offer intelligent and insightful legal examination on the issue and it's history.

65 posted on 06/21/2011 5:47:42 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: Kleon
Is this...I’m Not Who You Think I Am… what you're using for your diatribe?

I’ve just written and directed a feature film about two beautiful girls who fall in love in the post apocalyptic aftermath of a cellular apocalypse and who make a baby just by kissing.
ed. Just to keep the record straight- I’m straight. I simply made a film about two girls who fall in love at the end of the world… -Leo

Snip...I don’t believe the official 911 story and I don’t trust the Government at all in that regard.

Snip...I wrote a blog called “Citizenspook” (aka citizen spy) where I regularly argued that Bush administration officials should have been prosecuted under the Espionage Act for Treason by outing our own spys in the Plame affair.

Isn't that an Epic Fail on your part?

66 posted on 06/21/2011 5:48:16 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: philman_36
Remember this from the other day?

I do. And I agree with you. I remember reading once that most crimes are committed by people who truly believe they can get away with them. At present we have that mentality surrounding the White House. It's easy to understand why they can be so cocky and confident in their operation, but I am convinced their arrogance will embolden them to take one step too far.

67 posted on 06/21/2011 5:48:43 PM PDT by Faith
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To: Kleon
Do you think I'm just making this stuff up?
Well, you may not be making it up, but you're sure as hell twisting it, that's for sure.

For instance...
...who wanted Bush tried for treason... versus
...I regularly argued that Bush administration officials should have been prosecuted...

It came from the dude's own blog!
I know. See 66.
I posted what he said. You speculated as to what he said.

68 posted on 06/21/2011 5:55:06 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Kleon
But you've been down this path before.
69 posted on 06/21/2011 5:56:28 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Red Steel

It was good to see this case taken down by Donofrio.

The opinion in this case was a pure smokescreen.

As for the ruling...it was only this...”affirmed”. Thats it. No other legal ruling was made in that case.


70 posted on 06/21/2011 6:12:45 PM PDT by bluecat6 ( "A non-denial denial. They doubt our heritage, but they don't say the story is not accurate.")
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To: rxsid

Yes, the historical analysis is another good point. Several of us FReepers have been commenting at his blog since the beginning of this mess. (When he allows comments.)


71 posted on 06/21/2011 6:13:54 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. *4192*)
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To: philman_36
Did you gloss over the part where he says, ""I am one of those people who believes consenting adults should be able to marry each other regardless of sexual affiliation"? Yeah, I stand by my previous statement.

As for his position on Bush, I was also looking at his "Citizen Spook" blog, where he on numerous occasions points to the Bush administration and the "Bush, Cheney, Rove cabal" as the center of the conspiracy.

72 posted on 06/21/2011 6:14:41 PM PDT by Kleon
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To: rxsid
“Corsi has spent the majority of his time on the ‘B.C.’ issue and not the actual ‘natural born Citizen’ requirement.”

True, but Corsi is convinced that Obama was born in Kenya and his HI BC is a forgery so he really isn't that concerned about whether Obama would be NBC if he was born in the USA.

However, in “Where's the Birth Certificate?” Corsi has a whole chapter (3) discussing whether Obama was a dual citizen at birth and beginning on page 32 Corsi cites John Jay and Vattel

Corsi also devotes chapter 4 to refuting claims that Obama is a 14th Amendment natural born citizen and, like Donofrio, specifically debunks WKA explaining that WKA in no way established Wong as NBC but only as a citizen.

Corsi goes further to claim that if BHO Sr., a UK subject, was Obama’s father (and able to pass UK citizenship to Obama, which I dispute) Obama was NOT completely “subject to the jurisdiction” of the USA, as Wong's parents were.

73 posted on 06/21/2011 6:16:58 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: BuckeyeTexan; MHGinTN

Check again... he had cooled to it all recently, going back to his rock and roll and poker life.


74 posted on 06/21/2011 6:20:17 PM PDT by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: onyx; penelopesire; maggief; hoosiermama; SE Mom; seekthetruth; television is just wrong; jcsjcm; ..

... Ping!

Thanks, rx


75 posted on 06/21/2011 6:23:38 PM PDT by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: rxsid

Thank you for posting this! God bless Leo Donofrio!


76 posted on 06/21/2011 6:31:11 PM PDT by thecodont
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To: STARWISE

Check what again? I’ve been reviewing his analysis since 10/2008.


77 posted on 06/21/2011 6:35:24 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. *4192*)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

I said his recent .. I think his last post before this.


78 posted on 06/21/2011 6:44:48 PM PDT by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: Red Steel

Any time that ridiculous Ankeny decision gets shown
for the flimsy piece of fluff it was is so good.


79 posted on 06/21/2011 6:50:48 PM PDT by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
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To: Beckwith

I like the info contained in this article but it seems to me the courts are the ones to convince not me


80 posted on 06/21/2011 6:52:58 PM PDT by woofie
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To: Squeeky

Your welcome sweetheart!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqg_ZGcuybs&feature=watch_response_rev


81 posted on 06/21/2011 6:56:32 PM PDT by Herbster
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To: edge919
“I’m not sure why Donofrio is patting himself on the back over this. I’ve been citing the Minor decision and its definition of NBC for months, as well as the affirmation of that decision in Wong Kim Ark that the Minor decision recognized citizenship on the combined basis of BOTH jus soli and jus sanguinis criteria.”

It looks like Leo is correcting his own failure, dating back to late 2008, to recognize the plain language in Minor as precedent.

Back then Leo took that language about “regarding the latter there is doubt” to mean that the NBC definition was subject to doubt. Leo wrote then that there was no clear SCOTUS ruling on the definition of NBC. Now he has just realized that the “doubt” in Minor only applied to the citizenship of those with a foreign parent, not to doubt about the definition of true NBC citizens born on US soil of citizen parents.

82 posted on 06/21/2011 6:58:01 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: Seizethecarp

Took him a long time to get to the (right) answer. Maybe he’ll change his mind again on Monday.


83 posted on 06/21/2011 7:13:34 PM PDT by Fractal Trader
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To: READINABLUESTATE

LOL

Dork. /S


84 posted on 06/21/2011 7:33:52 PM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: BuckeyeTexan
Not surprisingly, you’ve missed the point of Leo’s analysis.

Not surprisingly, you've done nothing to prove this pointless claim.

85 posted on 06/21/2011 8:22:28 PM PDT by edge919
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To: Kleon

Amazing. Out of an essay of several hundred words, you point to one word and accuse Donofrio of being “Clintonesque.”


86 posted on 06/21/2011 8:23:57 PM PDT by edge919
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To: Kleon
Yeah, I stand by my previous statement.
And you don't make the same claim for the others.

As for his position on Bush, I was also looking at his "Citizen Spook" blog...
But that isn't what you gave as your source and justification for your statement, was it. Amending things now is a bit late.

Don't worry, Lawyer Leonard, I'll stop making your life difficult by pestering you.

87 posted on 06/21/2011 8:30:47 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: fightinJAG

Exactly.

At this point Obama could confess to being born out of the country to 2 people with no affiliation with the US at all, committing forgery, perjury, obstruction of justice, murder, etc, and specifically being inaugurated for the purpose of destroying the country.... and it would make no difference whatsoever because nobody who could do anything about it would do anything, and the media would call it a joke.

That should scare the heck out of every sane person in this country.

The fact that it doesn’t tells me we’re living in a nuthouse.

So what do we do about it?

Nebraska has a crazy (unconstitutional?) ballot initiative process - the sour grapes of a state senator who got kicked out by term limits passed by a ballot initiative. And Soros threatening Fox and other media companies is a bummer because it means there aren’t even any decent local radio people who will behave in a sane manner on this issue either. I can’t even stand to listen to any of them any more; they just disgust me.

I guess we need to read up on how placement on state ballots has to be challenged, when, and by whom. Maybe we need to get somebody to run as a democrat so they can challenge Obama in court during the primary. It might be painful to see the courts gyrate to claim lack of standing. Sigh.


88 posted on 06/21/2011 8:38:07 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: butterdezillion

Butter, don’t know if you saw, but Michelle Bachmann has already made sure her birth certificate is public. If she continues in the race, she or anyone for that matter, can challenge Obama’s inclusion on the presidential ballot in Hawaii and Illinois (if they file an objection at the right time). As such, she could certainly fit the direct and tangible interest requirement in Hawaii, and most likely have legal standing.


89 posted on 06/21/2011 8:42:58 PM PDT by edge919
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To: 83Vet4Life

Obama has forged 2 different documents and perjured himself, his lawyers have committed misprision of the felonies of both those things, and his handlers have blackmailed the heads of the media companies. In addition, almost all the government agencies in HI have committed misprision of those felonies as well as breaking a multitude of their own laws and possibly actually committing forgery themselves.

The birth certificate issue is not a “distraction”. It is a source of crimes that should put all these people away for a very long time, if we had the rule of law.

But what Leo found out in his pursuit of the NBC angle is the same thing that those pursuing the BC angle have found out: we have no rule of law in this country.

Neither angle is a distraction. They are both valid, and the only reason neither one has borne fruit is because we are a lawless banana republic at this point.

The question is what to do about it.


90 posted on 06/21/2011 8:44:49 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: rxsid

The mind, it is boggled.


91 posted on 06/21/2011 8:44:48 PM PDT by El Sordo (The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.)
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To: Triple

“Is anyone else wondering why it took so long for this precedent to surface?”

Because it’s the usual Birther misunderstanding, mischaracterizing, misinterpreting and misrepresenting of law?


92 posted on 06/21/2011 8:46:58 PM PDT by El Sordo (The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.)
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To: Kleon

“I don’t think we’ll ever sort out how a pro-gay-marriage 9/11 truther who wanted Bush tried for treason ever became the Constitutional scholar of choice on this forum.”

I blame all the Obots...


93 posted on 06/21/2011 8:51:22 PM PDT by El Sordo (The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.)
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To: El Sordo

I think there are a few “mis-sing” words from your post ... you know, the kind that actually make sense.


94 posted on 06/21/2011 8:51:58 PM PDT by edge919
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To: edge919

But would she do it? Right now I am so fed up with all the politicians I’m about ready to say it’s hopeless and just spend my potentially-short remaining time on earth gardening, remodeling, and playing with my kids. I’m sick of politicians who don’t get it, who act as if the rule of law is piddles. The more criminal Obama and his administration are revealed to be, the more the politicians toe the politically-correct line of doing and saying nothing about it, as if expecting the rule of law is way “too fringe” for any serious candidate to even consider. I feel like I’m living in an alternate universe.


95 posted on 06/21/2011 8:52:51 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: edge919

When you try to apply reason to this issue, you have to back up and remember that when Keyes, who was in fact an authorized candidate running for president, tried to challenge barry the bastard’s eligibility a corrupt court judge ruled that since he, the judge, believed Keyes had no chance to win the election that he did not have standing to challenge the winner of the election. Not one moment was spent questioning if barry had been tossed would Keyes have stood a much better chance to win since he was ‘the other black candidate’. The judge just ruled as his ruler’s goons dictated he rule.


96 posted on 06/21/2011 8:53:06 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

Judges making decisions by crystal ball, gazing into the future, claiming to know what “would have been”. A convenient tactic, since the crystal ball can say whatever the judge wants it to say.

Scary stuff. Again, I feel like I’m living in an alternate reality.


97 posted on 06/21/2011 8:59:28 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: edge919

You seem to think Leo is covering old information that you, personally, have been discussing for a long time. Thus your comment that you don’t understand why “he’s patting himself on the back.”

Let me give you a clue what the point of his article is: “precedent.”


98 posted on 06/21/2011 9:06:20 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. *4192*)
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To: philman_36
And you don't make the same claim for the others.

I didn't know posting them wasn't enough. Of course I stand by what I said.

I'll stop making your life difficult by pestering you.

More like you will quietly slip away after realizing what sort of person this guy you were defending really is.

99 posted on 06/21/2011 9:06:32 PM PDT by Kleon
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To: Kleon
Of course I stand by what I said.
Even the distortions? How noble.
100 posted on 06/21/2011 9:17:30 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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