Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Journal of the Federal Convention August 30th 1787
Avalon Project ^ | James Madison

Posted on 08/30/2011 2:02:22 AM PDT by Jacquerie

Articles XVII-XXI. Western Lands & New States, A Real Mess. More Threats to Leave the Convention. Republican Government. Rebellion. Amendment Process. Oaths. How Many States to Form a Government?

In Convention.

Art XVII [FN2] resumed for a question on it as amended by Mr. Govr. Morris's substitutes. [FN3]

Mr. CARROL moved to strike out so much of the article as requires the consent of the State to its being divided. He was aware that the object of this prerequisite might be to prevent domestic disturbances, but such was our situation with regard to the Crown lands, and the sentiments of Maryland on that subject, that he perceived we should again be at sea, if no guard was provided for the right of the U. States to the back lands. He suggested that it might be proper to provide that nothing in the Constitution should affect the Right of the U. S. to lands ceded by G. Britain in the Treaty of peace, and proposed a committment to a member from each State. He assured the House that this was a point of a most serious nature. It was desirable above all things that the act of the Convention might be agreed to unanimously. But should this point be disregarded, he believed that all risks would be run by a considerable minority, sooner than give their concurrence.

Mr. L. MARTIN 2ded. the motion for a committment.

Mr. RUTLIDGE is it to be supposed that the States are to be cut up without their own consent. The case of Vermont will probably be particularly provided for. There could be no room to fear, that Virginia or N. Carolina would call on the U. States to maintain their Government over the Mountains.

Mr. WILLIAMSON said that N. Carolina was well disposed to give up her western lands, but attempts at compulsion was [FN4] not the policy of the U. S. He was for doing nothing in the constitution in the present case, and for leaving the whole matter in Statu quo.

Mr. WILSON was against the committment. Unanimity was of great importance, but not to be purchased by the majority's yielding to the minority. He should have no objection to leaving the case of [FN5] new States as heretofore. He knew of [FN6] nothing that would give greater or juster alarm than the doctrine, that a political society is to be torne asunder without its own consent.

On Mr. Carrol's motion for commitment, N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [FN7]

Mr. SHERMAN moved to postpone the substitute for art: XVII agreed to yesterday in order to take up the following amendment "The Legislature shall have power to admit other States into the Union, and new States to be formed by the division or junction of States now in the Union, with the consent of the Legislature of such States." [The first part was meant for the case of Vermont to secure its admission.]

On the question, it passed in the negative N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [FN8]

Docr. JOHNSON moved to insert the words "hereafter formed or" after the words "shall be" in the substitute for art: XVII, [the more clearly to save Vermont as being already formed into a State, from a dependence on the consent of N. York to [FN9] her admission.] The motion was agreed to Del. & Md. only dissenting.

Mr. GOVERNR. MORRIS moved to strike out the word "limits" in the substitute, and insert the word "jurisdiction" [This also [FN10] meant to guard the case of Vermont, the jurisdiction of N. York not extending over Vermont which was in the exercise of sovereignty, tho' Vermont was within the asserted limits of New York]

On this question N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [FN11]

Mr. L. MARTIN, urged the unreasonableness of forcing & guaranteeing the people of Virginia beyond the Mountains, the Western people, of N. Carolina, & of Georgia, & the people of Maine, to continue under the States now governing them, without the consent of those States to their separation. Even if they should become the majority, the majority of Counties, as in Virginia may still hold fast the dominion over them. Again the majority may place the seat of Government entirely among themselves & for their own conveniency, [FN12] and still keep the injured parts of the States in subjection, under the guarantee of the Genl. Government agst. domestic violence. He wished Mr. Wilson had thought a little sooner of the value of political bodies. In the beginning, when the rights of the small States were in question, they were phantoms, ideal beings. Now when the Great States were to be affected, political societies were of a sacred nature. He repeated and enlarged on the unreasonableness of requiring the small States to guarantee the Western claims of the large ones. -It was said yesterday by Mr. Govr. Morris, that if the large States were to be split to pieces without their consent, their representatives here would take their leave. If the Small States are to be required to guarantee them in this manner, it will be found that the Representatives of other States will with equal firmness take their leave of the Constitution on the table.

It was moved by Mr. L. MARTIN to postpone the substituted article, in order to take up the following. "The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to erect New States within as well as without the territory claimed by the several States or either of them, and admit the same into the Union: provided that nothing in this constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the late treaty of peace. which passed in the negative: N. J. Del. & Md. only ay.

On the question to agree to Mr. Govr. Morris's substituted article as amended in the words following,

"New States may be admitted by the Legislature into the Union: but no new State shall be hereafter formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of the present States without the consent of the Legislature of such State as well as of the General Legislature"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [FN13]

Mr. DICKINSON moved to add the following clause to the last- "Nor shall any State be formed by the junction of two or more States or parts thereof, without the consent of the Legislatures of such States, as well as of the Legislature of the U. States." which was agreed to without a count of the votes.

Mr. CARROL moved to add-"Provided nevertheless that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the Treaty of peace." This he said might be understood as relating to lands not claimed by any particular States, but he had in view also some of the claims of particular States.

Mr. WILSON was agst. the motion. There was nothing in the Constitution affecting one way or the other the claims of the U. S. & it was best to insert nothing leaving every thing on that litigated subject in statu quo.

Mr. MADISON considered the claim of the U. S. as in fact favored by the jurisdiction of the judicial power of the U. S. over controversies to which they whould be parties. He thought it best on the whole to be silent on the subject. He did not view the proviso of Mr. Carrol as dangerous; but to make it neutral & fair, it ought to go farther & declare that the claims of particular States also should not be affected.

Mr. SHERMAN thought the proviso harmless, especially with the addition suggested by Mr. Madison in favor of the claims of particular States.

Mr. BALDWIN did not wish any undue advantage to be given to Georgia. He thought the proviso proper with the addition proposed. It should be remembered that if Georgia has gained much by the cession in the Treaty of peace, she was in danger during the war, of a Uti possidetis.

Mr. RUTLIDGE thought it wrong to insert a proviso where there was nothing which it could restrain, or on which it could operate.

Mr. CARROL withdrew his motion and moved the following. "Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to alter the claims of the U. S. or of the individual States to the Western territory, but all such claims shall be examined into & decided upon, by the Supreme Court of the U. States."

Mr. Govr. MORRIS moved to postpone this in order to take up the following.

"The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the U. States; and nothing in this constitution contained, shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the U. S. or of any particular State." -The postponemt. agd. to nem. con.

Mr. L. MARTIN moved to amend the proposition of Mr. Govr. Morris by adding- "But all such claims may be examined into & decided upon by the supreme Court of the U. States."

Mr. Govr. MORRIS. this is unnecessary, as all suits to which the U. S. are parties, are already to be decided by the Supreme Court.

Mr. L. MARTIN, it is proper in order to remove all doubts on this point.

[FN14]Question on Mr. L. Martin's amendatory motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no- [FN15] States not farther called the negatives being sufficient & the point [FN16] given up.

The Motion of Mr. Govr. Morris was then agreed to, Md. alone dissenting.

Art: XVIII [FN17] being taken up,-the word "foreign" was struck out. nem: con: as superfluous, being implied in the term "invasion."

Mr. DICKINSON moved to strike out "on the application of its Legislature, against" He thought it of essential importance to the tranquility of the U. S. that they should in all cases suppress domestic violence, which may proceed from the State Legislature itself, or from disputes between the two branches where such exist.

Mr. DAYTON mentioned the Conduct of Rho: Island as shewing the necessity of giving latitude to the power of the U. S. on this subject.

On the question, N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [FN18]

On a question for striking out "domestic violence" and insertg. "insurrections." It passed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [FN19]

Mr. DICKINSON moved to insert the words, "or Executive" after the words "application of its Legislature"-The occasion itself he remarked might hinder the Legislature from meeting.

On this question N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [FN20]

Mr. L. MARTIN moved to subjoin to the last amendment the words "in the recess of the Legislature" On which question [FN21] N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On [FN22] Question on the last clause as amended N. H. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [FN23]

Art: XIX [FN24], [FN25] taken up.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS suggested that the Legislature should be left at liberty to call a Convention, whenever they please.

The art: was agreed to nem: con:

Art: XX. [FN24], [FN25] taken up. - [FN26] "or affirmation" was [FN27] added after "oath."

FN27 In the transcript the word "was" is crossed out and "were" is written above it.

Mr. PINKNEY moved to add to the art: -"but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the authority of the U. States"

Mr. SHERMAN thought it unnecessary, the prevailing liberality being a sufficient security agst. such tests.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS & Genl. PINKNEY approved the motion. The motion was agreed to nem: con: and then then whole Article; N. C. only no-& Md. Divided.

Art: XXI. [FN28], [FN29] taken up. viz: [FN30] The ratifications of the Conventions of ---------- States shall be sufficient for organizing this Constitution."

Mr. WILSON proposed to fill the blank with "seven" that being a majority of the whole number & sufficient for the commencement of the plan.

Mr. CARROL moved to postpone the article in order to take up the Report of the Committee of Eleven (see Tuesday Augst. 28) [FN31]- and on the question

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [FN32]

Mr. Govr. MORRIS thought the blank ought to be filled in a twofold way, so as to provide for the event of the ratifying States being contiguous which would render a smaller number sufficient, and the event of their being dispersed, which wd. require a greater number for the introduction of the Government.

Mr. SHERMAN. observed that the States being now confederated by articles which require unanimity in changes, he thought the ratification in this case of ten States at least ought to be made necessary.

Mr. RANDOLPH was for filling the blank with "nine" that being a respectable majority of the whole, and being a number made familiar by the constitution of the existing Congress.

Mr. WILSON mentioned "eight" as preferable.

Mr. DICKINSON asked whether the concurrence of Congress is to be essential to the establishment of the system, whether the refusing States in the Confederacy could be deserted-and whether Congress could concur in contravening the system under which they acted?

Mr. MADISON, remarked that if the blank should be filled with "seven" eight, or "nine"-the Constitution as it stands might be put in force over the whole body of the people, tho' less than a majority of them should ratify it.

Mr. WILSON. As the Constitution stands, the States only which ratify can be bound. We must he said in this case go to the original powers of Society. The House on fire must be extinguished, without a scrupulous regard to ordinary rights.

Mr. BUTLER was in favor of "nine." He revolted at the idea, that one or two States should restrain the rest from consulting their safety.

Mr. CARROL moved to fill the blank with "the thirteen," unanimity being necessary to dissolve the existing confederacy which had been unanimously established.

Mr. KING thought this amendt. necessary, otherwise as the Constitution now stands it will operate on the whole though ratified by a part only.

Adjourned

FN1 The year "1787" is omitted in the transcript.

FN2 The word "being" is here inserted in the transcript.

FN3 The transcript uses the word "substitutes" in the singular.

FN4 In the transcript the word "was" is crossed out and "were" is written above it.

FN5 The word "the" is here inserted in the transcript.

FN6 The word "of" is omitted in the transcript.

FN7 In the transcript the vote reads: "New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, aye-3; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, south Carolina, aye-5; New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, GeorgiaM no-6."

FN9 The word "for" is substituted in the transcript for "to."

FN10 The word "was" is here inserted in the transcript.

FN11 In the transcript the vote reads: New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virnia, aye-7; New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgoa, no-4."

FN12 The word "conveniency" is changed to "convenience" in the transcript.

FN13 In the transcript the vote reads: "New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, aye-8; New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, no-3."

FN14 The words "On the" are here inserted in the transcript.

FN15 In the transcript the vote reads: New Jersey, Maryland, aye-2; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Virgini, no-6."

FN16 The word "being" is here inserted in the transcript.

FN17 See ante.

FN18 In the transcript the vote reads: "New Jersey Pennsylvania, Delaware, aye- ; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, no-8."

FN19 In the transcript the vote reads: New Jersey, Virginia, North CarolinaM South Carolina, Georgia, aye-5; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pensylvania, Delaware, Maryland, no-6."

FN20 In the transcript the vote reads: "New Hampshire, Connecticut, New Jersey, PennsylvaniaM Delaware, North Carolina, South Carolina, GeorgiaM aye- 8; Massachusetts, Virginia, no-2; Maryland, divided."

FN21 the transcript here adds the words: "Maryland only, aye," and omits the vote by States.

FN22 The word "the" is here inserted in the transcript.

FN23 In the transcript the vote reads: "New Hampshire, Massachusetts, connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, aye-9; Delaware, Maryland, no-2 "

FN24 See ante.

FN25 The words "was then" are here inserted in the transcript.

FN26 The expression "the words" is here inserted in the transcript.

FN27 In the transcript the word "was" is crossed out and "were" is written above it.

FN28 See ante.

FN29 The words "being then" are here inserted in the transcript.

FN30 The word "viz" is omitted in the transcript.

FN31 The words "the twenty-eighth of August" are substituted in the transcript for "Tuesday Augst. 28."

FN32 In the transcript the vote reads: "New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, aye-3; New Hampshire Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, no-8."


TOPICS: Government; Reference
KEYWORDS: constitution; convention; framers; freeperbookclub; madison
Article XVII resumed, “New States may be admitted by the Legislature into this Union: but no new State shall be erected within the limits of any of the present States, without the consent of the Legislature of such State, as well as of the Genl. Legislature."

Daniel Carroll (MD) asked the Convention to delete the power of states to subdivide, and grant western backlands to the US. This would remove the burden of State “building” from State Legislatures. It would also quell Small State fears of already Large States growing to enormous size. He moved to commit the Article.

Luther Martin (MD) seconded.

John Rutlidge asked if States were to be cut up without their consent. He attempted to soothe Small State fears, saying there was no way VA or NC would extend their government over the mountains. (Look at a relief map of the US. Their western borders, including West VA, are more or less just over the Appalachian Mountains.)

Hugh Williamson said NC was also inclined to give up her Western lands, but not to have them taken away. He was for doing nothing about it in the Constitution.

James Wilson was against commitment and would not yield on this point to the minority interest. He would not vote to allow a political society to be torn asunder without its consent.

Mr. Carroll’s motion to commit failed 8-3.

Roger Sherman motioned to postpone a vote on the substitute Article XVII agreed to yesterday, in order to consider, “The Legislature shall have power to admit other States into the Union, and new States to be formed by the division or junction of States now in the Union, with the consent of the Legislature of such States."

Mr. Sherman’s motion failed 6-5.

Dr. Samuel Johnson moved to insert “hereafter formed or,” to the substitute Article XVII so as to read, “New States may be admitted by the Legislature into this Union: but no new State shall be hereafter formed or erected within the limits of any of the present States, without the consent of the Legislature of such State, as well as of the Genl. Legislature.” His term, “hereafter formed or,” was intended to specifically remove the consent of NY from the business of admitting Vermont to the Union. (NY delegates left the convention several weeks prior.)

Dr. Johnson’s motion passed 9-2.

Governeur Morris motioned to replace “limits,” with “jurisdiction,” which was another effort to remove VT from NY dominance.

Mr. Morris’ motion passed 7-4.

(Luther Martin then let loose a broadside.) The new peoples of the western lands and Maine should not have to seek consent from VA, NC and MA to form states. They would end up oppressed in their small numbers by State Legislatures weeks away over dangerous mountain ranges. No, the Small States would guarantee the extended land claims of the Large. Mr. Martin sarcastically reminded Mr. Wilson of his earlier statements regarding states as mere phantoms of irrelevance, whereas now they were of the most incredible importance. He countered Mr. Morris’ threat yesterday to leave the convention with one of his own.

Mr. Martin motioned to substitute Mr. Morris’ substitution with, “The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to erect New States within as well as without the territory claimed by the several States or either of them, and admit the same into the Union: provided that nothing in this constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the late treaty of peace.”

Mr. Martin’s motion failed to pass, 8-3.

Mr. Morris’ motion from yesterday, the substitute amendment to Article XVII, “New States may be admitted by the Legislature into the Union: but no new State shall be hereafter formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of the present States without the consent of the Legislature of such State as well as of the General Legislature," passed 8-3.

John Dickinson motioned to add to Article XVII, "Nor shall any State be formed by the junction of two or more States or parts thereof, without the consent of the Legislatures of such States, as well as of the Legislature of the U. States," which passed without a formal vote.

Daniel Carroll motioned to add, -"Provided nevertheless that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the Treaty of peace." He so much as admitted his motion was vague.

James Wilson opposed the motion. Leave this litigated issue alone.

James Madison brought up the Judicial Power and its jurisdiction over such matters. He also thought it best to be silent on the subject aside from declaring to leave particular State claims alone.

Roger Sherman thought Mr. Carroll’s proviso harmless.

Abraham Baldwin (GA), as a delegate with an interest in western lands, did not press his state’s claims. But, he reminded the Convention that his State ran the risk of loss of territory during the war, in violation of Uti Possidetis. (Uti Possidetis, from a quick wiki search, is an ancient concept that a newly independent States should not lose territory to neighbors)

John Rutlidge would not accept the addition of near meaningless provisions to the Constitution.

Daniel Carroll withdrew his motion. But, he then motioned, “Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to alter the claims of the U. S. or of the individual States to the Western territory, but all such claims shall be examined into & decided upon, by the Supreme Court of the U. States." (Punting difficult issues to the Supreme Court is apparently an old American tradition.)

(I suppose by this time, many delegates were at wits end to come up with a solution. What to do over competing State and individual or corporate claims to lands given to the US by treaty? Do Sovereign States have just claims, or the US, or both? What of the claims of speculative companies (Illinois & Wasbash, Indiana Companies) to which Indians had sold large tracts? Some members of the Confederation Congress and influential State office holders had interests in these companies. Add political calculations over representation in a popularly elected House and equal State suffrage in the Senate, it was a real mess that befuddled our Framers.)

Governeur Morris motioned to postpone in order to consider, "The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the U. States; and nothing in this constitution contained, shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the U. S. or of any particular State," which was agreed to without opposition.

Luther Martin motioned to give the Supreme Court specific jurisdiction over the issue.

Governeur Morris pointed out that it was unnecessary. Scotus would have jurisdiction without it. Mr. Martin’s motion was defeated, 8-2.

Article XVIII was next. “The United States shall guaranty to each State a Republican form of Government; and shall protect each State against foreign invasions, and, on the application of its Legislature, against domestic violence.”

The word “foreign” was struck as superfluous.

John Dickinson moved to strike, "on the application of its Legislature, against." (If James Madison was Father of the Constitution, John Dickinson was parent to the Articles of Confederation. It is unfortunate Mr. Dickinson is another comparative unknown in this period.)

(Check Mr. Dickinson’s words closely. With his change, the National Government would have power to put down rebellion in any form, from slaves or perhaps a Legislature preparing to vote for secession.)

Jonathan Dayton brought up RI as an example of why the amendment was needed. (Man, I wish I knew what he referred to. Once again, the absence of a court recorder denied our look into history.)

Mr. Dickinson’s motion failed 8-3.

A motion made by an unidentified delegate to strike “domestic violence” and insert “insurrections” failed narrowly, 6-5.

John Dickinson moved to insert “or Executive,” after the words, “application of its Legislature.” A rebellion may prevent the meeting of a State’s Legislature.

Mr. Dickinson’s motion passed 8-2.

Luther Martin moved to add, “in the recess of the Legislature,” after “Executive, which failed to pass 10-1.

Article XVIII as amended, “The United States shall guaranty to each State a Republican form of Government; and shall protect each State against invasions, and, on the application of its Legislature, or Executive against domestic violence.

Article XIX was next, “On the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the States in the Union, for an amendment of this Constitution, the Legislature of the United States shall call a Convention for that purpose.”

Governeur Morris thought the Legislature should be able to do so at will.

Article XIX passed without opposition.

Article XX, “The members of the Legislatures, and the Executive and Judicial officers of the United States, and of the several States, shall be bound by oath to support this Constitution,” was taken up.

An unidentified delegate motioned “or affirmation,” after “oath.” The motion passed.

(I suspect the work of three months weighed heavily on Madison by now. His recent notes showed noticeably less detail than in the early days of the Convention.)

Charles Pinckney motioned to add, "but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the authority of the U. States."

Roger Sherman disfavored the motion as unnecessary considering the liberality of the times.

Governeur Morris and General Pinckney approved. The motion, and then Article XX passed 9-1-1. Article XXI, “The ratifications of the Conventions of ----- States shall be sufficient for organizing this Constitution,” was next.

James Wilson proposed seven, being a majority of the whole.

Daniel Carroll motioned for postponement, in order to consider the tabled report from the Committee of Eleven (Ports & Trade). His motion was defeated, 8-3.

Governeur Morris attempted to make allowance (perhaps expectation) for noncontiguous State ratification.

Roger Sherman suggested ten states. The Confederation required unanimity to make changes.

Edmund Randolph proposed nine, being the number to pass most laws under the Confederation.

James Wilson sought eight. (Mr. Madison must be exhausted. There is little texture left to his notes.)

John Dickinson asked some difficult questions. Must Congress concur with the Constitution? What of States that do not ratify? Could Congress recommend a system that contravened the one they served?

James Madison thought whatever the number, the Constitution could be put in force over all the people.

(Bad idea, Mr. Madison)

James Wilson said (obviously) only those States which ratify can be bound. The people of each State will decide.

Pierce Butler favored “nine.” It was ridiculous to be bound by the restraint of two States.

Daniel Carroll went the other way, and offered all thirteen; that being the number necessary to dissolve the existing Confederacy.

The Convention adjourned without a further vote.

1 posted on 08/30/2011 2:02:29 AM PDT by Jacquerie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Lady Jag; Ev Reeman; familyof5; NewMediaJournal; pallis; Kartographer; SuperLuminal; unixfox; ...
Constitutional Convention Ping!
2 posted on 08/30/2011 2:06:06 AM PDT by Jacquerie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jacquerie
(I suspect the work of three months weighed heavily on Madison by now. His recent notes showed noticeably less detail than in the early days of the Convention.)

Again, I must say I am impressed at the notes that Madison did write, being made by quill and parchment.

Again, I must say that our current invasion is being ignored by our government.

Constitution Day is coming up on September 17; it is also the first anniversary of my father's death. I'll keep him, and the future of this nation, in my prayers.

3 posted on 08/30/2011 4:00:08 AM PDT by Loud Mime (Democrats: debt, dependence and derision)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Loud Mime
Sorry about the sadness Constitution day brings to you.

Our government loses a little more legitimacy every day. The latest compromise of science, the hurricane/globull warming hype is just an example.

Like you, so many of us wonder why the government does not fulfill a basic function, protection from invasion? The unsaid answer is not “human rights” or social justice, but the reelection of democrat party members.

A government founded to secure our rights had evolved into an oppressive violator of those rights.

As for the delegates work schedule, a lot was done outside of the six day/week 1000-1600 routine. Since mid-July there had almost always been at least one committee working outside of Convention hours and delegates met at dinner and in the evenings to work things out. There are so many details we know nothing of.

4 posted on 08/30/2011 5:21:15 AM PDT by Jacquerie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Loud Mime

As will I — a fathers death leaves a void not easily filled nor completely healed. The death of a nation seems nearly equal in impact-differing mostly in the observation of
numbers. God gives us but one father. And a nation /government may be taken up —or put off perhaps many times in a mans life. Yet we come to rely on both almost equally for certain provisions and protection.


5 posted on 08/30/2011 5:55:21 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Jacquerie

This day in particular seems reflect the sum of the Convention questions of Big or small— of the Majority vs. Minority — of States rights to be surrendered to a new and national system.
what State today speaks with such jealousy for guarding States rights-Texas comes to mind -but I fear all will surrender to the power now entrenched in our national system.


6 posted on 08/30/2011 5:59:00 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: StonyBurk; Jacquerie

Thanks to both of you!


7 posted on 08/30/2011 7:41:01 AM PDT by Loud Mime (Democrats: debt, dependence and derision)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson