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Women in Orbit
DiogenesLamp

Posted on 08/31/2011 9:00:17 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp

Birth in Space!


TOPICS: Government; Politics; Society
KEYWORDS: bearsr4rugs; birth; born; citizen; ib4tz; natural; ozone; zotemifyagotem; zotisaszotdoes
Legal question for all you jus soli types. Suppose a foreign woman was orbiting the earth. Does the child become an American only if they happen to be over the United States when he pokes his head out?

This is why your argument is so stupid. Ponder that for a bit.

1 posted on 08/31/2011 9:00:24 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp
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To: DiogenesLamp

Yes only when over the U.S. ZOT


2 posted on 08/31/2011 9:02:54 AM PDT by I Hate Obama ("Sorry I had a fight in the middle of your Black Panther Party." -Forest Gump)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Kind of early to be hitting the bong isn't it?

NB4theZOT

3 posted on 08/31/2011 9:04:29 AM PDT by txroadkill (I hated 0bama before it was cool)
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To: DiogenesLamp

You are not in any nation when you are in orbit. Airspace does not extend to infinity.


4 posted on 08/31/2011 9:04:47 AM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: DiogenesLamp

Have you seen my moose? He’s a pretty thing and answers to the name `Brautigan.’


5 posted on 08/31/2011 9:05:31 AM PDT by tumblindice (It's the Donner-Reed show!)
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To: DiogenesLamp

If born over North Korea or China they are a commie.

P.S.
I am assuming pregnant women are not allowed to go into outer space.


6 posted on 08/31/2011 9:06:03 AM PDT by I Hate Obama ("Sorry I had a fight in the middle of your Black Panther Party." -Forest Gump)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Good question.

Also, if a woman time travels back to the middle ages and gives birth on land that will one day be America, is that baby a native born American?

Also, if a blue fairy turns a wooden puppet into a real boy on American soil, can that former puppet be president? What if the original wood was Canadian?

7 posted on 08/31/2011 9:07:14 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

[ Legal question for all you jus soli types. Suppose a foreign woman was orbiting the earth. Does the child become an American only if they happen to be over the United States when he pokes his head out?
This is why your argument is so stupid. Ponder that for a bit. ]

No they become the world’s first Extra-Terestial, well sides the ones that are stored at Area 51 ;)


8 posted on 08/31/2011 9:08:25 AM PDT by GraceG
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To: NonZeroSum
You are not in any nation when you are in orbit. Airspace does not extend to infinity.

Orbit is not infinity. What altitude would you suggest is sufficient to answer the question?

9 posted on 08/31/2011 9:13:08 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

Good luck pushing in space.


10 posted on 08/31/2011 9:15:05 AM PDT by Tanniker Smith (I didn't know she was a liberal when I married her.)
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To: I Hate Obama
If born over North Korea or China they are a commie.

Or Berkley. :)

P.S. I am assuming pregnant women are not allowed to go into outer space.

Suppose they didn't start out that way. It can get mighty boring on the ole international space station. :)

11 posted on 08/31/2011 9:15:05 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: dead

[ Also, if a woman time travels back to the middle ages and gives birth on land that will one day be America, is that baby a native born American?

Also, if a blue fairy turns a wooden puppet into a real boy on American soil, can that former puppet be president? What if the original wood was Canadian? ]

Answer #1: No the Baby is a “Time Lord- American” and should get dual citizenship from both Galifrey and the closest Native American Tribe they were born near.

Answer #2: Geppetto will be raided by the feds and arrested for working on the Indian Wood he obtained from his overseas supplier before the fairy even has a chance to work her magic.


12 posted on 08/31/2011 9:15:20 AM PDT by GraceG
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To: DiogenesLamp

Only if the baby has a freakishly huge head and the very top of it briefly touches the state of Texas before burning to a cinder.
There, I can play, too!


13 posted on 08/31/2011 9:16:07 AM PDT by ozark hilljilly (Sanitized for your protection)
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To: dead

Isn’t one president with a wooden head enough?


14 posted on 08/31/2011 9:16:24 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

What is the nationality of the father?


15 posted on 08/31/2011 9:17:37 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Tanniker Smith

[ Good luck pushing in space. ]

Women have given birth in pools which is a “zero bouyancy” same as space. Muscles still work in space.

Now the Neutonian reaction of th baby exiting the mother will cause a very small delta-V to the craft she is in, but no more than the people moving about inside of the cabin.


16 posted on 08/31/2011 9:19:01 AM PDT by GraceG
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To: DiogenesLamp

The child would be an illegal space alien and would be allowed to cross our borders with impunity.


17 posted on 08/31/2011 9:19:07 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (When scraping bottom of political barrel, the top layer of scum candidates isn't better than bottom.)
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To: OB1kNOb

Yes! Best answer, IMO.


18 posted on 08/31/2011 9:43:35 AM PDT by GreatRoad (O < 0)
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To: DiogenesLamp

19 posted on 08/31/2011 9:46:51 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The USSR spent itself into bankruptcy and collapsed -- and aren't we on the same path now?)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Your not a very bright Lamp ... borders end at space, no diff then when borders extent only so many miles out to sea
20 posted on 08/31/2011 10:06:18 AM PDT by tophat9000 (American is Barack Oaken)
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To: DiogenesLamp

Orbit isn’t infinity, but it’s above national airspace. That precedent was set with Sputnik. It’s what allows spy satellites to fly without being shot down. It’s a pointless question. If a woman bears a child in orbit, its citizenship would be based on hers, unless it was aboard a sovereign facility of some sort (ISS wouldn’t count as US territory, due to its international nature).


21 posted on 08/31/2011 10:08:51 AM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: DiogenesLamp

Birth in Space!
In space no one can hear you scream?


22 posted on 08/31/2011 10:09:07 AM PDT by tophat9000 (American is Barack Oaken)
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To: DiogenesLamp

Child will be a citizen of whatever country the space ship lands in??


23 posted on 08/31/2011 10:10:00 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: OB1kNOb

I like your answer.


24 posted on 08/31/2011 10:12:14 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: SampleMan
What is the nationality of the father?

It doesn't matter to jus soli adherents.

25 posted on 08/31/2011 10:31:32 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: OB1kNOb
The child would be an illegal space alien and would be allowed to cross our borders with impunity.

:)

26 posted on 08/31/2011 10:32:51 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: tophat9000
Your not a very bright Lamp ... borders end at space, no diff then when borders extent only so many miles out to sea.

Guess you never heard of a "Gedankenexperiment." (And you call me dull.) Dodging the question is dishonest in my opinion. You've been caught by the Lamp.

Fine, the Orbit is at whatever altitude that is necessary for the legal ramifications to demonstrate how stupid is the "jus soli" principle of citizenship.

27 posted on 08/31/2011 10:37:35 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
This is why your argument is so stupid.

No one made any argument, including you apparently.

28 posted on 08/31/2011 10:39:57 AM PDT by Brett66 (Where government advances, and it advances relentlessly , freedom is imperiled -Janice Rogers Brown)
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To: NonZeroSum
Orbit isn’t infinity, but it’s above national airspace. That precedent was set with Sputnik. It’s what allows spy satellites to fly without being shot down. It’s a pointless question. If a woman bears a child in orbit, its citizenship would be based on hers, unless it was aboard a sovereign facility of some sort (ISS wouldn’t count as US territory, due to its international nature).

You can orbit at any altitude in a thought experiment, which is what this is. Nitpicking about the irrelevant parameters of the thought experiment is just dodging the question. For those of you who simply cannot get beyond forcing an idea into a real world scenario, just think of it as a plane flying over the country in route to another country.

29 posted on 08/31/2011 10:41:26 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: tophat9000
Your not a very bright Lamp ... borders end at space, no diff then when borders extent only so many miles out to sea

You cannot fathom the purpose of a thought experiment and call me dull? I suppose that is the only argument you can make, because you certainly cannot seem to address the salient point.

30 posted on 08/31/2011 11:15:07 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
just think of it as a plane flying over the country in route to another country.

There is nothing intrinsic about being in national airspace that would confer citizenship on a child born in an airplane, either. For instance, if it were an Air France flight, the interior of the aircraft would be French territory. The woman wouldn't enter the US until she landed there and cleared customs.

31 posted on 08/31/2011 11:31:17 AM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: NonZeroSum
There is nothing intrinsic about being in national airspace that would confer citizenship on a child born in an airplane, either. For instance, if it were an Air France flight, the interior of the aircraft would be French territory. The woman wouldn't enter the US until she landed there and cleared customs.

So it is the Landing that would confer citizenship? What is the child before landing? In limbo?

This argument dovetails with the Abortion argument. There are those who are fond of legal technicalities that argue a child doesn't exist as a person till it exits it's mother. How do Freepers feel about THAT argument. I dare say most won't agree with it in regards to personhood, are fine with advocating it for citizenship.

32 posted on 08/31/2011 11:54:28 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
So it is the Landing that would confer citizenship?

No.

What is the child before landing? In limbo?

No, the child is the same citizenship as the mother, or a citizen of whatever country the airliner is from, depending on that nation's laws. If it were an American aircraft, it might be considered an American citizen, even if it occurred in another country's air space. Landing would change nothing.

33 posted on 08/31/2011 12:03:39 PM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: NonZeroSum
No, the child is the same citizenship as the mother, or a citizen of whatever country the airliner is from, depending on that nation's laws. If it were an American aircraft, it might be considered an American citizen, even if it occurred in another country's air space. Landing would change nothing.

What is the threshold for acquiring jus soli? If it's not being born inside the boundary, and it's not touching the soil, by what method does it operate? Again, I am reminded of the Liberal argument for "Instant Personhood" once a child emerges from the womb, but "non personhood" just prior to that time.

Of course the pro-life and jus sanguinius concepts are in complete agreement with each other. (From the moment of conception.) This sudden and wrenching change from one status to another seems to be a sort of ad hoc.

34 posted on 08/31/2011 12:10:14 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
What is the threshold for acquiring jus soli? If it's not being born inside the boundary, and it's not touching the soil, by what method does it operate?

I already explained, the interior of an aircraft in flight is sovereign territory of the nation in which it is registered. If it is an Air France flight, it would be as if the child were born in France. It has nothing to do with the air space in which it is flying.

I have no idea what kind of point you are attempting to make with this "thought experiment."

35 posted on 08/31/2011 12:18:19 PM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: NonZeroSum
I already explained, the interior of an aircraft in flight is sovereign territory of the nation in which it is registered. If it is an Air France flight, it would be as if the child were born in France. It has nothing to do with the air space in which it is flying.

Alien space ship of no Earth nationality?

I have no idea what kind of point you are attempting to make with this "thought experiment."

Sure you do. I am demonstrating how ridiculous is an idea of citizenship based on hair splitting about being born inside our borders.

It has been a useful exercise for me. It made me realize that Abortion and jus soli citizenship are connected by the same thread, while pro-life and jus sanguinius are also connected by a common thread.

Abortion proponents argue that an unborn child is NOT A PERSON until born. Jus Soli proponents argue that a child is not a CITIZEN until born, and then it depends on where the child is born.

Pro-life, and jus sangunius both argue that the characteristics of the person are created at the moment of conception, not at some later date by some threshold criteria.

36 posted on 08/31/2011 1:21:06 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

A fetus is a human being at conception. It is not a citizen. Having its citizenship be determined by time and place of conception would be ridiculous since, unlike a birth, it wouldn’t be possible to authenticate it.

This is a really dumb argument.

And if it was born on an alien spaceship, it would have the citizenship of whatever planet the ship was from.


37 posted on 08/31/2011 1:55:46 PM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: NonZeroSum
A fetus is a human being at conception. It is not a citizen. Having its citizenship be determined by time and place of conception would be ridiculous since, unlike a birth, it wouldn’t be possible to authenticate it.

This is a really dumb argument.

If you think it is a dumb argument, you aren't seeing the ramifications of it. The Liberal argument is that a fetus is not a person TIL BORN. The Jus Soli argument is that a fetus is not a citizen TIL BORN.

The Pro-life Argument is that a fetus is a person from the moment of conception. The Jus Sanguinus argument is that a person inherits their characteristics of citizenship from their parents at the moment of conception.

The Liberal Pro-Abortion argument shares a "qualification threshold" with the jus soli argument; That being Birth.

The Conservative Pro-Life argument shares an inherent characteristic of being a person with that same characteristic of being a citizen; by virtue of the parents passing on this characteristic.

And if it was born on an alien spaceship, it would have the citizenship of whatever planet the ship was from

Another dimension where they don't use planets. And where every molecule is the result of one shared multitasking particle. :)

The point is to boil down the "place of birth" argument to it's bare minimum threshold, and then show how silly it is to base citizenship on this minimum threshold. Citizenship ought not be decided by the few seconds or minutes it takes for the head to emerge, it ought to be regarded as a characteristic inherent in the child because of inheritance from the parents. It is the more logical way of looking at it, and it is consistent with the Pro-Life position.

38 posted on 08/31/2011 2:22:42 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: dead

“Also, if a woman time travels back to the middle ages and gives birth on land that will one day be America, is that baby a native born American?

Also, if a blue fairy turns a wooden puppet into a real boy on American soil, can that former puppet be president? What if the original wood was Canadian?”

you’re too good at this. you should be a trial lawyer.


39 posted on 08/31/2011 2:27:26 PM PDT by fnord (Republicans are just the right-wing of the left-wing of American politics)
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To: DiogenesLamp

What if the parents are from two different countries?

If you want to change the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment have at it, but this conception nonsense is unhelpful.


40 posted on 08/31/2011 2:39:05 PM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: NonZeroSum
If you want to change the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment have at it, but this conception nonsense is unhelpful.

Not at all. I am merely pointing out how silly it is to claim that birth alone within the boundaries makes someone a "natural born citizen". Since you find the idea to be nonsense, I have made my point. It IS nonsense to use the standard of birth within a border to claim that someone is a "natural born citizen." Our orbiting soviet cosmette demonstrates how silly it is for someones citizenship to be governed by a presence within an area.

41 posted on 08/31/2011 5:08:30 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Not at all. I am merely pointing out how silly it is to claim that birth alone within the boundaries makes someone a "natural born citizen". Since you find the idea to be nonsense

That's not what I find to be nonsense, but life is too short to argue any further with someone who doesn't seem to be good at reading comprehension.

42 posted on 08/31/2011 5:13:49 PM PDT by NonZeroSum
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To: NonZeroSum
That's not what I find to be nonsense, but life is too short to argue any further with someone who doesn't seem to be good at reading comprehension.

I'm sorry you have comprehension difficulty. I hope to waste no more time with you, and would like to not do so in the future.

43 posted on 08/31/2011 5:33:49 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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