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Vanity: Rush Limbaugh sleeps while Herman Cain attacks free market and federalism
10-23-2011 | JOHN W K

Posted on 10/23/2011 4:57:25 PM PDT by JOHN W K

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To: ConservativeMind

>> Herman is not clear about the difference between a flat or a retail sales tax at the national level and the fair tax. The article is a legitimate point to the confusion around the sales tax options. >>

He is if you understand the context of that article and the time in which it was written and what tax was being discussed at the time. Context people, context. It matters.


51 posted on 10/23/2011 5:27:24 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: C. Edmund Wright

In defense of the poster, did you read the article? It appears that in fact Herman is not clear in his article about the difference between a VAT, the Fair tax, and a national sales tax. What Herman appears to be suggesting in one of the nines in the 999 plan is in fact a national retail tax which he seems to deride in the article, despite it being part of the fair tax.


52 posted on 10/23/2011 5:28:58 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: C. Edmund Wright

ditto.


53 posted on 10/23/2011 5:29:04 PM PDT by ken21
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To: JOHN W K

Wow, you wrote a whole article an managed to not get a single fact correct.

Congratulations! You win the stupidest post EVER award!


54 posted on 10/23/2011 5:29:33 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

So I ask, is it evil to have a national sales tax or not? Herman appears to have said that it was just 12 months ago.


55 posted on 10/23/2011 5:31:13 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: ConservativeMind
Actually YOU need to read the article by Cain cited in the 1st line. Cain is abundantly clear to those who OPEN THEIR MIND, to what he has to say.

In that article he makes it very clear the difference between the fair tax and a VAT tax.

56 posted on 10/23/2011 5:31:13 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: JOHN W K

I guess you missed the fact Empowerment Zones were in Reagan’s tax plan.


57 posted on 10/23/2011 5:32:55 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: ConservativeMind
Sorry the person NOT clear on it is you. READ Cain's articles
58 posted on 10/23/2011 5:34:09 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: ConservativeMind

>> So I ask, is it evil to have a national sales tax or not? Herman appears to have said that it was just 12 months ago. >>

Come on, are you that shallow? Cain was talking about the commission’s plan to levy a national sales tax ON TOP OF THE EXISTING TAX CODE WE HAVE NOW. I REPEAT, ON TOP OF THE EXISTING TAX CODE WE HAVE NOW. ONE MORE TIME IN CASE YOU MISSED IT: HE SAID IT WAS WRONG TO LEVY A NATIONAL SALES TAX - OR A VAT TAX - ON TOP OF THE ONE MILLION WORD MONSTROSITY WE HAVE NOW.

That is totally 180 degrees away from what he proposes with either the FAIR TAX or with the 999 - which is - wait for it - I’ll write slowly - DESIGNED
TO
REPLACE
THE
EXISTING
TAX
CODE.


59 posted on 10/23/2011 5:34:13 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: MNJohnnie

The fair tax is a national sales tax in place of the income tax. Herman is not getting rid of the income tax with his 999 plan. It would seem that he is signing on to what he thought was wrong just 12 months ago. The thread poster seems to have hit on a legitimate point.


60 posted on 10/23/2011 5:34:36 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: JOHN W K

I’m sorry but your claim to know what the Founder intended based on nothing but your own opinions is absurd.


61 posted on 10/23/2011 5:35:27 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: ConservativeMind

>> In defense of the poster, did you read the article? It appears that in fact Herman is not clear in his article about the difference between a VAT, the Fair tax, and a national sales tax. >>

I did read the article, and I’ve read the VAT tax he was opposing in the article, and I’ve read the FAIR TAX book. If you had read any or all of that, you would have understood it too.


62 posted on 10/23/2011 5:36:16 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: GeronL

I find it odd how the critics of Empowerment zones always overlook the fact they were created by Reagan.


63 posted on 10/23/2011 5:37:07 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: GeronL

I agree.


64 posted on 10/23/2011 5:38:23 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: BereanBrain
You wrote:

Ho hum. So, I wonder who you support? How is a flat tax an attack? Seems to me we have the “entitlement class” paying nothing at one end (the occupy crowd), and the GE and Berkshire Hathaway crony capitalism at the other. Cain is the ONLY person who would make BOTH groups PAY their fair share.

Fair share? Our founding fathers wrote the fair share formula in our Constitution for any general tax laid among the States! Our founders understood a suicidal evil of democracy under which 51 percent of a nation’s population is free to tax away the property of the remaining 49 percent of the population. And to protect against such evil they adopted the rule of apportionment to be strictly enforced if imposts and duties (taxes at our water’s edge) and internal taxes on “judiciously selected” articles of consumption, were found insufficient to meet Congress’ expenditures, in which case a general tax was then to be laid among the States, but only in compliance with the rule of apportionment which predetermines each State’s fair share of a total sum being raised, and prevents the class warfare game. The formula being:

State`s Pop
. _________ X SUM NEEDED = STATE`S SHARE OF TAX BURDEN
U.S. pop.

But don’t take my word for it, let our founding fathers speak for themselves and explain the rule of apportionment!

Pinckney addressing the S.C. ratification convention with regard to the rule of apportionment says:

“With regard to the general government imposing internal taxes upon us, he contended that it was absolutely necessary they should have such a power: requisitions had been in vain tried every year since the ratification of the old Confederation, and not a single state had paid the quota required of her. The general government could not abuse this power, and favor one state and oppress another, as each state was to be taxed only in proportion to its representation“__ 4 Elliot‘s, S.C., 305-6

Also see: “The proportion of taxes are fixed by the number of inhabitants, and not regulated by the extent of the territory, or fertility of soil” 3 Elliot`s, 243, “Each state will know, from its population, its proportion of any general tax” ___ Mr. George Nicholas, during the ratification debates of our Constitution.

And, Mr. Madison goes on to remark about Congress’s “general power of taxation” that, "they will be limited to fix the proportion of each State, and they must raise it in the most convenient and satisfactory manner to the public." 3 Elliot‘s, 255

And then there is Mr. PENDLETON‘S comment which goes directly to the evil being corrected!:

“The apportionment of representation and taxation by the same scale is just; it removes the objection, that, while Virginia paid one sixth part of the expenses of the Union [under the Articles of Confederation], she had no more weight in public counsels than Delaware, which paid but a very small portion” 3 Elliot‘s 41

Our founding fathers understood the importance of tying both representation and taxation by the same standard and they commanded by our Constitution, representation with proportional obligation, or, one vote one dollar. And it is this part of the rule of apportionment (one vote one dollar) which pinko progressives disdain because it discourages the Congressional Delegations of those states with large pinko populations such as New York, California, Pennsylvania, etc., from using their large representation in Congress to recklessly spend money from the federal treasury, and it does this by requiring them to return home with a bill for their State to pay an apportioned share of the federal tab proportionately equal to their voting strength in Congress whenever a general tax is laid among the States. Progressives just love their one man one vote part of the Constitution, but when it comes time for that one vote one dollar part of our Constitution to be implemented they run and hide and pretend our Constitution does not mean what our founders intended it to mean.

Regards,

JWK

65 posted on 10/23/2011 5:38:43 PM PDT by JOHN W K
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To: TexMom7
Nice try but Cain was talking about a VAT in the statement you misquote.

So are you knowingly misleading here or do you simply have no clue what you are talking about?

66 posted on 10/23/2011 5:38:48 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: JOHN W K

The Constitution was amended as it was designed to be to allow for an income tax. I can see an argument for the same to happen for a national sales tax, but if you’re suggesting that we go back to a pre-1913 tax system, you’re dreaming.

It will NEVER happen.


67 posted on 10/23/2011 5:39:06 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Thank you for spelling out Cain’s actual intention, to REPLACE the existing tax code with his 999 plan.

I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen Freepers screaming about “adding” new taxes on top of the taxes we already have.


68 posted on 10/23/2011 5:39:34 PM PDT by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: ConservativeMind

>> Herman is not getting rid of the income tax with his 999 plan. >>

I hate to be snippy, but you are simply factually ignorant in every post you’ve made in this thread. Cain gets rid of a 70 thousand word code in his 999 plan and replaces it with a simple flat income tax piece. Are you being obtuse on purpose or is this really that complicated for you?

That’s a serious question, because your vapid assumptions are stunting any serious debate on the issue because kindergarten mistakes have to be corrected before we can even get to the philosophical issues.


69 posted on 10/23/2011 5:40:19 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: FReepers; everyone; All
marine-corps-di


PLEASE CONSIDER DONATING TO FREE REPUBLIC TODAY OR BECOMING A MONTHLY DONOR


CLICK ON THE IMAGE ABOVE TO DONATE



70 posted on 10/23/2011 5:40:39 PM PDT by onyx (You're here on FR, so support it! Compiling New Sarah Ping List. Let me know if you want on it.)
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To: marty60
Another lying opportunist.

Yep, jut like you Marty, the author of this article is another lying opportunist knowingly misrepresenting what Cain actually said.

Try reading the Cain articles for a change, don't just lie about them.

71 posted on 10/23/2011 5:40:43 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: JOHN W K
candidate whose mission is to give another taxing power to Congress

Think what you will of a national sales tax, but it's not "another" or even a new power. You pay a national sales tax every time you buy a gallon of gasoline or a tire (just to name two). The federal government has imposed excise taxes on goods and services for virtually our entire history.

You can certainly disapprove of the power, but you can't call it new.

72 posted on 10/23/2011 5:40:53 PM PDT by BfloGuy (Even the opponents of Socialism are dominated by socialist ideas.)
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To: JOHN W K

Probably all the talk show hosts know more than you on the subject....maybe you should reconsider your stand and maybe your the one that is wrong...Unless you see yourself as being smarter than all of them put together...(but I doubt that you are)


73 posted on 10/23/2011 5:42:13 PM PDT by goat granny
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To: Windflier; ken21

>> Thank you for spelling out Cain’s actual intention, to REPLACE the existing tax code with his 999 plan.
I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen Freepers screaming about “adding” new taxes on top of the taxes we already have. >>

You and Ken21 are going to have to take it from here on this thread - I can’t risk losing IQ points by continuing to debate a few of the folks involved here. It is giving me a headache.


74 posted on 10/23/2011 5:42:18 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: C. Edmund Wright
I don’t like the carve outs for Detroit

Yeah, that part is real stupid. Sort of like teachers and dem politicians saying with every spending bill that with out more money it is the children who will suffer. Cut us a break, we have spent BILLIONS on the department of education, and local taxing jurisdictions capping that with billions more.

Every student could have been given a million dollar trust fund over the last several decades and there would still be change with that happy meal. Making education spending completely unnecessary.
75 posted on 10/23/2011 5:43:03 PM PDT by JSteff ((((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.))))
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To: JSteff

Those carve outs are a legitimate concern with the plan. So is transition and a few other issues. What kills me are the ignorant misconceptions that so many keep repeating - which adds nothing to the discussion.

I would say 99.9% of the complaints about 999 are based in ignorance. I’d like to get to some real issues with it.


76 posted on 10/23/2011 5:44:51 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright
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To: JOHN W K
``A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane!

Are you just too stupid to comprehend what Cain said RIGHT in your 1st line?

9-9-9 REPLACES, it does not ADD to the Tax code.

Are you really this completely stupid?

77 posted on 10/23/2011 5:46:01 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: Windflier

Second in stupidity to “But 9-9-9 can become 25-25-25!” like all other tax systems are immune from rate increases. FUD is alive and well on FR, and it’s pathetic.


78 posted on 10/23/2011 5:46:22 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (Don't stop. Keep moving!)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
You and Ken21 are going to have to take it from here on this thread - I can’t risk losing IQ points by continuing to debate a few of the folks involved here. It is giving me a headache.

Friend, you've done an admirable job of rebutting the fallacious statements about Cain's tax proposal on this thread. None of us can do more than reiterate what you've already said.

Well done (and I'm outta here, too).

79 posted on 10/23/2011 5:46:38 PM PDT by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: JOHN W K
``A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane!

Are you unable comprehend what Cain said RIGHT in the very 1st line of your ignorant rant?

9-9-9 REPLACES, it does not ADD to the Tax code.

Are you really this completely stupid?

80 posted on 10/23/2011 5:46:50 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: JOHN W K
A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane!

Of course it is. That's why Cain is proposing not to put a National Sales Tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today but to eliminate all of the confusing and unfair taxes we have today and replace all of them with a simple 999 tax.

Is that so hard to understand?

81 posted on 10/23/2011 5:47:08 PM PDT by Prokopton
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To: JOHN W K

One of the things I have not yet heard asked or explained about the national sales tax leg of 999 is this...

WHO Will be collecting the tax???

If retailers will be expected to figure, collect, and pay the 9% sales tax, then a lot (not all) of the concerns about the new system are valid.

BUT... If manufacturers will be paying the tax, based upon reported sales, then what we have is more like a 18 - 9 - 0 plan. Much of the concern over taxes being increased goes away, because manufacturers already pay far more than 18% tax on income and the cost of goods sold.

What people would see is the overall price of goods drop (because the existing tax code is gone), and a little notice on their price tag saying that the cost of their item includes a 9% NST. The retailer adds to that the local/state sales tax as usual, and the end cost to consumers is LESS THAN WHAT THEY PAY NOW!.

Cain’s plan takes the invisible “Sneak-Attaxes” at all levels of production, and consolidates and shrinks them to a single visible tax at the point of sale.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BUSINESS TAX!....
It ALL ends up being passed on to the consumer.

We would be outraged if we knew how much tax we are actually paying to the federal government... especially those who think they are paying no tax at all.


82 posted on 10/23/2011 5:47:08 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: C. Edmund Wright

I understand what you’re saying but the existing tax code is an income tax. It is much higher than what Herman is now suggesting though. In his article Herman did not say an income tax in a smaller form was okay. He only said abolishing the income tax, which is what the fair tax does, was appropriate.

Understand that I am not disrespecting Herman on this; it’s just that it’s not clear. It is obvious that the idea of keeping the income tax is something new to Herman for him to offer at this time.


83 posted on 10/23/2011 5:47:25 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: ConservativeMind
``A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane!

Try actually READING what Cain said, not just put your own emotion based spin on it. 9-9-9 replaces, it does not add to, the existing tax code.

84 posted on 10/23/2011 5:48:22 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: MNJohnnie
You wrote:
I guess you missed the fact Empowerment Zones were in Reagan’s tax plan.

It was a violation of our Constitution then, and it is a violation of our Constitution now!

JWK

85 posted on 10/23/2011 5:50:56 PM PDT by JOHN W K
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To: JOHN W K

Somebody agues like a liberal, and that’s sad :(


86 posted on 10/23/2011 5:51:51 PM PDT by Dead Dog
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To: JOHN W K

What part of “on top of” do you not understand? Got to laugh at your post right out of the gate.


87 posted on 10/23/2011 5:51:55 PM PDT by avacado
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To: JOHN W K

Somebody agues like a liberal, and that’s sad :(


88 posted on 10/23/2011 5:52:04 PM PDT by Dead Dog
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To: JOHN W K

John - get out read more.

You assign “establishment” connections for Mr Cain due to what was his one time in the gulag of government policy - the Federal Reserve, at a location - the regional Federal Reserve Bank in Kansas City, far removed from the power center in Washington, and the controlling Federal Reserve Bank in New York, and a position for which he was selected because of his knowledge and successful experience in business and industry in the Midwest - he understood the banking needs and issues in the region. Actually, Mr Cain’s lifetime experience places him farther removed from the Washington establishment than just about all the GOP candidates, with the possible exception of Ms Bachman. Is she who you are shilling for?

That’s as much time as I can give to responding to your rant; not that a whole lot more couldn’t be said - it could.


89 posted on 10/23/2011 5:52:22 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: JOHN W K

John - get out read more.

You assign “establishment” connections for Mr Cain due to what was his one time in the gulag of government policy - the Federal Reserve, at a location - the regional Federal Reserve Bank in Kansas City, far removed from the power center in Washington, and the controlling Federal Reserve Bank in New York, and a position for which he was selected because of his knowledge and successful experience in business and industry in the Midwest - he understood the banking needs and issues in the region. Actually, Mr Cain’s lifetime experience places him farther removed from the Washington establishment than just about all the GOP candidates, with the possible exception of Ms Bachman. Is she who you are shilling for?

That’s as much time as I can give to responding to your rant; not that a whole lot more couldn’t be said - it could.


90 posted on 10/23/2011 5:52:40 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: JOHN W K

What a steaming load of ::censored::


91 posted on 10/23/2011 5:54:29 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: MNJohnnie
You wrote:

I’m sorry but your claim to know what the Founder intended based on nothing but your own opinions is absurd.

Did you read the various quotes I provided?

JWK

92 posted on 10/23/2011 5:54:57 PM PDT by JOHN W K
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To: JOHN W K
A national retail sales tax on top of all the confusing and unfair taxes we have today is insane!

In your very 1st line, you demonstrate you have NO idea what is in 9-9-9.

Your level of arrogant ignorance is simply inexcusable in a supposed adult mind. The very 1st line of the article you wrote proves the rest of what you wrote pure idiocy.

93 posted on 10/23/2011 5:55:02 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: JOHN W K

94 posted on 10/23/2011 5:55:39 PM PDT by iowamark (Rick Perry says I'm heartless.)
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To: JOHN W K
The reason NO one takes you seriously John is because you are totally ignorant of even basic facts.

Rather then try to defend the indefensible, try actually learning about 9-9-9 rather then write such ignorant drivel as this.

95 posted on 10/23/2011 5:56:52 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
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To: Future Snake Eater
Second in stupidity to “But 9-9-9 can become 25-25-25!” like all other tax systems are immune from rate increases. FUD is alive and well on FR, and it’s pathetic.

What so many detractors of Cain's plan fail to realize, is that it's politically impossible for Congress to raise a tax rate that affects EVERYONE.

That is one of the beauties of the 9% flat income tax portion. It's virtually untouchable by Congress. Same with the 9% sales tax. You can't raise it for just some of the people, while leaving your friends unaffected.

Those two pillars of Cain's tax plan strip the power to punish or reward certain constituencies from Congress forever. It completely tilts the balance of power back toward The People, which cannot be seen as anything but a vast improvement in the way our system of government operates.

96 posted on 10/23/2011 5:57:11 PM PDT by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: MNJohnnie

I am not being emotional and my words stand by themselves. I have given just shy of $100 to Herman. You appear to be the emotional one here.


97 posted on 10/23/2011 5:58:49 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: big'ol_freeper
"I smell a Romneybot"

That's ok, just scrape it off your shoe.

98 posted on 10/23/2011 6:02:22 PM PDT by atc23 (The Confederacy was the single greatest conservative resistance to federal authority ever.)
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To: Future Snake Eater
You wrote:

The Constitution was amended as it was designed to be to allow for an income tax. I can see an argument for the same to happen for a national sales tax, but if you’re suggesting that we go back to a pre-1913 tax system, you’re dreaming.

It will NEVER happen.

Are you saying you are content to accept and live under what "progressives" imposed upon us in 1913?

Join the fight and start promoting the 32 word plan:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

JWK

We are here today and gone tomorrow, but what is most important is what we do in between, and is what our children will inherit and remember us by.

99 posted on 10/23/2011 6:03:21 PM PDT by JOHN W K
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To: big'ol_freeper

“Which candidate are you trolling for here?”

I’m guessing Obama.


100 posted on 10/23/2011 6:03:21 PM PDT by Brilliant
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