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Does Vatican Realize Its About To Step Into A Socialistic Hornet's Nest?
http://www.webcommentary.com/php/ShowArticle.php?id=meekinsf&date=111026 ^ | 11/6/2011 | Frederick Meekins

Posted on 11/06/2011 7:07:21 PM PST by Morgana

Speaking on a Vatican proposal to restructure world finance, a Cardinal declared, "We should not be afraid to propose ideas even if they might destabilize pre-existing balances of power that prevail over the weakest."

And does this include the position enjoyed by the Vatican as well?

Or is this yet another example of the "don't do as I do, do as I say" mentality that prevails among globalist elites?

Before calling for the redistribution of global wealth, shouldn't an institution calling for such divest itself of its ostentatious finery that, despite having a certain beauty, wasn't necessarily part of the founder's original business plan when operating in the field?

Before lecturing the rest of us how we need a goodly portion of what we have taken away in the name of the downtrodden, how about telling the downtrodden to exercise a little control over themselves by refraining from having so many children that they can't afford?

Isn't that the greater act of selfishness, going through with one's own carnal enjoyment despite knowing the that the life of the resultant progeny will be likely destitution?

Shouldn't one of the world's foremost moral authorities instead be calling for more independent creation of wealth rather than the centralized bureaucratic redistribution of such resources?

The Vatican insists such reforms are required in order to make the world economy more responsive to democracy.

So what is going to protect Vatican assets when the enemies of all forms of Christianity vote to confiscate that institution's vast and historically varied holdings?

(Excerpt) Read more at webcommentary.com ...


TOPICS: Religion
KEYWORDS: catholic; partisanmediashill; plannedparenthood; prolife; religion; romancatholicism; vatican
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1 posted on 11/06/2011 7:07:26 PM PST by Morgana
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To: Salvation; NYer; Tax-chick

Normally I would not ask for a catholic ping, but I really need some help with this topic.

Some out there in ProtestantLand attack me for being Anti Birth control. Then this story about the Vatican breaks out.

Could you all PLEASE help me with both?
Thanks


2 posted on 11/06/2011 7:13:47 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: Morgana

the vatican is marxist

and anti-capitalist.


3 posted on 11/06/2011 7:14:38 PM PST by ken21
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To: Morgana
Speaking on a Vatican proposal to restructure world finance.....

When I posted the original story back on Oct. 24th, there were many who corrected me on the source. They said it wasn't from "The Vatican," but from an obscure dept of it named "Justice and Peace."

Nevertheless, here we are, a couple weeks removed. Since the original story broke, no Vatican officials (to my knowledge) have distanced the church from it.

Until then, I'll have to work on the assumption The Vatican accepts it.

4 posted on 11/06/2011 7:18:49 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: ken21

Actually the Vatican is opposed to Marxism and embraces responsible free markets.


5 posted on 11/06/2011 7:19:50 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: Morgana
Before lecturing the rest of us how we need a goodly portion of what we have taken away in the name of the downtrodden, how about telling the downtrodden to exercise a little control over themselves by refraining from having so many children that they can't afford?
In other words, if you can't feed 'em don't breed 'em!
6 posted on 11/06/2011 7:20:06 PM PST by Impala64ssa
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To: edpc

You wrote:

“Nevertheless, here we are, a couple weeks removed. Since the original story broke, no Vatican officials (to my knowledge) have distanced the church from it.”

Since it isn’t from the Church (i.e. an offical statement of the Church) why would ANYONE have to distance the Church from it?

“Until then, I’ll have to work on the assumption The Vatican accepts it.”

Boy, you have far less than a clue on this.


7 posted on 11/06/2011 7:21:50 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Pope On Economy: World Needs New Financial Order

NICOLE WINFIELD 07/ 7/09 04:38 PM AP

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI called Tuesday for a new world financial order guided by ethics and the search for the common good, denouncing the profit-at-all-cost mentality blamed for bringing about the global financial meltdown.

____________________________________________________________________

doesn’t sound very capitalist to me.


8 posted on 11/06/2011 7:23:59 PM PST by ken21
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To: Impala64ssa; All

Before lecturing the rest of us how we need a goodly portion of what we have taken away in the name of the downtrodden, how about telling the downtrodden to exercise a little control over themselves by refraining from having so many children that they can’t afford?

In other words, if you can’t feed ‘em don’t breed ‘em!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I want to remind you that the author is not Catholic. Although he is speaking of married couples. He is asking married couples to sin by taking contraception.

One would think that God would provide the husband and wife with everything they need for their baby? This is called “trust and faith” in God? HHHMMM?


9 posted on 11/06/2011 7:26:14 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: vladimir998

Is that department part of the church, or not? If a cabinet official made a controversial announcement and the WH did not respond, you’d be correct in assuming it’s accepted.


10 posted on 11/06/2011 7:27:15 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: ken21

Who cares how it sounds to someone sho doesn’t know what he’s talking about?

First of all do you really believe we live in a completely capitalist society? We don’t. We live in a limited free market society (and always have really). Secondly, I don’t think most people would object to “a new world financial order guided by ethics and the search for the common good, denouncing the profit-at-all-cost mentality”. I am all for people making money, but not at that cost of morals. Do you think morals have no place in the market place?


11 posted on 11/06/2011 7:28:27 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

you’re rude.

i shall not read any more replies from you.


12 posted on 11/06/2011 7:31:14 PM PST by ken21
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To: vladimir998
"I am all for people making money, but not at that cost of morals. Do you think morals have no place in the market place?" Morals! I do remember that in the workplace! I remember a very nice company too! Yes MORALS! Funny you should say that! Morals made the difference in the workplaces of the past! Something that today's places lack! If only, IF ONLY! Union Carbide: Simply Great Chemistry Thanks for the memories Vlad!
13 posted on 11/06/2011 7:32:28 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: edpc

You wrote:

“Is that department part of the church, or not?”

The office, yes. The statement, no. It’s a white paper. It has no impact upon Church teaching, governance, or the laity. Got that yet?

“If a cabinet official made a controversial announcement and the WH did not respond, you’d be correct in assuming it’s accepted.”

Are you really so out of touch as to think an institution established by Jesus Christ and 2,000 years old is going to function like the White House? That seems to be the number one problem with twits who go after the Vatican for what one department issues as a white paper. Most people are too stupid to actually know what their talking about in this because they have no clue as to how the Vatican works. This thread has already proved that much.


14 posted on 11/06/2011 7:32:38 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: ken21

I would much rather be rude than a liar. It is simply a lie to say the Vatican is Marxist.


15 posted on 11/06/2011 7:35:00 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: Morgana

The Pope and the Vatican need to tend to the pedophiles within its walls and matters of faith. Butt-out of the political and economic issues.


16 posted on 11/06/2011 7:36:17 PM PST by BlackjackPershing ("The Business of America is Business"--President Calvin Coolidge)
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To: vladimir998

Vlad I posted this because I wanted to know what was going on!!!

PLEASE tell me!!! PLEASE!!!!


17 posted on 11/06/2011 7:36:36 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: edpc

The Church doesn’t work that way. Officials can make a comment, but that is far from the Pope stating the same.


18 posted on 11/06/2011 7:40:41 PM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: vladimir998
Are you really so out of touch as to think an institution established by Jesus Christ and 2,000 years old is going to function like the White House?

Whatever credibility you thought you had on the subject evaporated with that idiotic statement. Anyone with a pedestrian knowledge of religion....any religion....knows The Vatican and other religious institutions have had times when they've functioned like a government bureaucracies.....and worse.

I'm out of touch? Open a history book.

19 posted on 11/06/2011 7:41:06 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: edpc; All

well....19 comments since I posted this thread and still I don’t have answers to my questions.......................................


20 posted on 11/06/2011 7:43:05 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: BenKenobi
If the article is to be believed, an official did comment. I'd prefer there was an attribution, rather than a quote from and unidentified "Cardinal."

What is one supposed to glean from that quote, assuming it's accurate?

21 posted on 11/06/2011 7:45:30 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: Chode

Chode if you are in the house will you please come in and help me with this????


22 posted on 11/06/2011 7:47:39 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: Morgana

This isn’t too surprising for the Vatican, if one studies the eschatology of Roman Catholicism.

The RCC firmly believes God has appointed the RCC as His Body on earth to rule His Creation.

One of the reasons “Liberation Theology” is so popular amongst Catholic roots and communist/socialist leaning agendas in Central America, was based upon the Catholic perspective that they have the moral imperative to direct where the wealth should go anyways, by Divine mandate issued through the Church.

Their position is not so based upon charity as upon their firm belief in their authority having been given absolutely, and legitimately by God through Peter and continued through the millenia by their definition of the Church.


23 posted on 11/06/2011 7:47:49 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Morgana
"Speaking on a Vatican proposal to restructure world finance, a Cardinal declared, "We should not be afraid to propose ideas even if they might destabilize pre-existing balances of power that prevail over the weakest."

Why is the Vatican speaking of worldly orders? Are they not supposed to be separate?

24 posted on 11/06/2011 7:49:17 PM PST by NoGrayZone (Stay involved..because stupid people are running America! - Herman Cain - Amen!!!)
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To: Morgana

Not surprising. Too many assume Catholic bashing is the issue. It’s not.


25 posted on 11/06/2011 7:49:33 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: edpc

That the media wants you to believe that X is true about the Catholic church.

It’s unattributed, and that’s your first red flag. You might as well grab a pilgrim and get him to fill in.


26 posted on 11/06/2011 7:51:58 PM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

Translation: Stick to saving souls and leave the secular stuff to the world. Once the church crosses the line, it becomes vulnerable to be being co-opted and corrupted by the world.


27 posted on 11/06/2011 7:54:09 PM PST by Kolath
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To: BenKenobi

I tend to agree stories like this are approached and brought forth with an agenda. I’d still be interested in knowing what the comment would mean, however, if it’s a valid quote.


28 posted on 11/06/2011 7:56:15 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: Cvengr

“This isn’t too surprising for the Vatican, if one studies the eschatology of Roman Catholicism.”

Eschatology? That word concerns the affairs of life after death. I’m not sure what you think it means.

“The RCC firmly believes God has appointed the RCC as His Body on earth to rule His Creation.”

No. The Catholic church believes that God chose Peter to be the head of His church here on earth, and gave Peter the command to spread the word of Christ amongst men. They also believe that there is an unbroken line of priests from Peter to now, where the current head of the Church, is of this line, ie, the Pope.

The Church teaches nothing about dominion over all the earth, except that it will be the province of Christ when he returns.

“Catholic perspective that they have the moral imperative to direct where the wealth should go anyways, by Divine mandate issued through the Church.”

Except that the Church doesn’t believe this and gaging the Church by liberation theologists, is no different than gaging Protestants by Mormon theology. Liberation theology is heretical and condemned by the Church.

I’m not sure where you are getting this, but you are very wrong about what the Church believes.


29 posted on 11/06/2011 8:00:30 PM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: ken21

denouncing the profit-at-all-cost mentality

Total strawman. Show me anyone who believes a profit-at-all-cost mentality which would countenance murder for profit, prostitution, theft, etc etc.


30 posted on 11/06/2011 8:01:58 PM PST by DManA
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To: edpc

“I’d still be interested in knowing what the comment would mean, however, if it’s a valid quote.”

If it were a valid quote it would be attributed. The reporter is just ‘reporting’ on his own opinion, nothing more.


31 posted on 11/06/2011 8:05:22 PM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: edpc

your correct edpc...


32 posted on 11/06/2011 8:09:12 PM PST by caww
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To: BenKenobi
So, if the WaPo, NYT, or any other liberal rag quotes an unnamed source making a detrimental comment about a Dem, will they be lying?
33 posted on 11/06/2011 8:13:42 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: ken21

Pope’s encyclical on Marxism explains why it is an evil philosophy and antithetical to Catholic Theology==the main reason (and there are lots besides being godless) is that they believe in “the end justifies the means”. In other words, you can kill a few people if it helps make the world a “better” place (according to the Marxist Masters).

Christians have to treat every single person with dignity and respect and it is never justified to use human beings as just a means to an end. Can’t use them like an object-—for selfish lust, or whatever. It removes human dignity.

They have acknowledged Capitalism is great if the people are moral, but if people are immoral, it can be extremely evil. Capitalism isn’t good or bad—just the people using the system. So, Capitalism is good if the people using it are good. That really works with most any system, though==even a Philosopher King.

I believe that I have read articles which have stated in the Catholic Press that Capitalism has led to the most wealth and freedom which is really noted by the amount of religious freedom which was so great in America. So they are noticing which system works best.....subsidiarity is a basic tenant of theirs, after all, but the Church has been infiltrated by Marxists/homosexuals, so you really have to read around those few radicals.

That latest article was written by one of there radicals.


34 posted on 11/06/2011 8:14:36 PM PST by savagesusie
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To: savagesusie

“So they are noticing which system works best.....subsidiarity is a basic tenant of theirs, after all, but the Church has been infiltrated by Marxists/homosexuals, so you really have to read around those few radicals.

That latest article was written by one of there radicals.”

THANK YOU SUSIE!!! FINALLY 34 COMMENTS INTO THIS I GET MY ANSWER!

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

deep breath...........calm..........


35 posted on 11/06/2011 8:18:18 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: edpc

You seem to really want this to be true. Why?


36 posted on 11/06/2011 8:22:45 PM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: edpc

This is kind of like bogus sexual harassemnt claims. Some “Catholic” group comes out and makes a statement and it is gospel unless the Vatican distances themselves from it. There are a billion Catholics out there and the “Vatican”, usually meaning the pope, can’t know what they are all saying and doing because they aren’t God, they are God’s representatives on earth.


37 posted on 11/06/2011 8:32:48 PM PST by tiki
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To: BenKenobi
If that's your conclusion based on what I've said, it's only reached because that's what you want to believe.

I want this "meaningless paper" written by "radicals" in the church to be addressed by the church. Whether it's the way "it works" or not, they need to rid themselves of this element if it's not where they stand.

38 posted on 11/06/2011 8:33:57 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: tiki

Little bit of a difference if the person in question is in a church department.


39 posted on 11/06/2011 8:36:49 PM PST by edpc (My silence IS an answer)
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To: Morgana

The Roman Catholic Church as ‘Holy Mother our Church’ has always legally avoided paying taxes whenever possible. The Church teaches ‘Catholic economics’ which is> ‘Love God above all things & Love your neighbor as yourself.’
It’s incorrect to view the teachings of The Roman Catholic Church as:> Marxists, Socialist, Capitalist or any other economic theory except> ‘Catholic-economics.’


40 posted on 11/06/2011 8:43:13 PM PST by gghd
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To: edpc

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/07/07/pope-benedict-xvis-encyclical-caritas-in-veritate/


41 posted on 11/06/2011 8:43:54 PM PST by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: Morgana

What about natural family planning?


42 posted on 11/06/2011 8:57:14 PM PST by Bellflower (Judas Iscariot, first democrat, robber, held the money bag, claimed to care for poor: John 12:4-6)
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To: Bellflower

There is always that, have nothing against it. However this author is pushing for contraception.

Plus one can still get pregnant by natural family planning.


43 posted on 11/06/2011 9:01:56 PM PST by Morgana (This space for rent.........cheap)
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To: ken21
the vatican is marxist and anti-capitalist

Related threads:
Age-old ‘distributism’ gains new traction
Mixed Blessing: The Ryan budget and the raging battle within the U.S. Catholic Church [lefty take]
Capitalist Fantasy: Pauper laborer, prince spender
Market Economy and Ethics By Cardinal Ratzinger(Pope Benedict XVI) 1985
What the Popes Really Say About Socialism
Let’s Get This Straight on Papal Infallibility [re Redistribution of Income & Environmental Science]
Church and economy-Excerpts from Cardinal Ratzinger(PopeBenedict XVI) 1984 interview
Pope to issue encyclical on economics
Economic Catholicism
Short-sighted speculation harms economy, endangers peace, Pope writes in World Peace Day message
Disney accused by Catholic cleric of corrupting children's minds
The Pope predicted economic Armageddon back in 1985
Chesterton’s genuine hope for a just society
Catholic Teachings on Capitalism, Marxism and Economics
The Pope Denounces Capitalism and Marxism
Day Five: Pope raps Capitalism, Marxism as 'blind alleys'' in a world without God
US Bishops – Our Clerical Keystone Cops

"Since the origins of modern capitalism around 1780, more than two-thirds of the world’s population has moved out of poverty. In China and India alone, more than 500 million have been raised out of poverty just in the last forty years. In almost every nation the average age of mortality has risen dramatically, causing populations to expand accordingly. Health in almost every dimension has been improved, and literacy has been carried to remote places it never reached before.
Whatever the motives of individuals, the system has improved the plight of the poor as none ever has before. The contemporary left systematically refuses to face these undeniable facts."
-- Robert Novak, from the thread Economic Heresies of the Left (Novak on Caritas in Veritate)
Despite what one might think, economics is not morally or theologically neutral. Every business action supports a certain economic paradigm and in doing so, supports a certain and specific theology. Every businessperson needs to understand that taking a specific economic position gives insight into your view of theology, morality and God. These insights must be addressed because it will affect how you run your business....For a business owner, it could be whether you maximize your profits or how you compensate your employees, issues like that....Economics is certainly not morally or theologically neutral. To take a stance as a Marxist, Keynesian, or an Adam Smith Capitalist reveals insight into your view of man, God and redemption....
....These truths are not the same as capitalism. Yet capitalism is the one economic paradigm that is most congruent with Calvin’s teachings and the Biblical economic “truths” I mentioned....Calvin believed wealth cannot be evil because God chooses to bless some with wealth. But, whether wealthy or poor, Calvin and the Bible exhort us to be content with our economic positions in life and to live a life following his word, not chasing after wealth....People who think of Calvin as equating material prosperity with eternal destiny are misreading him. But if someone is in difficulty, then maybe that is where that person needs to be in this life for the sake of his eternal life. That may be an expression of God’s will.
-- from the thread How theology ties into economics

44 posted on 11/06/2011 9:06:33 PM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: Morgana
....19 comments since I posted this thread and still I don’t have answers to my questions.......................................

Did you ask specific questions? - all you said was that you needed help.

45 posted on 11/06/2011 9:14:22 PM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: Morgana
The bottom line is that a Commission in the Vatican issued a 'White Paper' that dealt with what it sees as the injustice of many in the world having little while some have a lot. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Church teachings, because it has nothing to do with the Faith. Catholics are not bound by anything that comes out of commissions dealing with anything having to do with areas of politics or economics, because they are not part of the dogma or doctrine of the Catholic faith.

This Pope, like John Paul II before him, understands the horror of socialism and fascism, and knows that capitalism is the one system that works for free people. But the Pope also knows that there are areas of the world where people are not free to engage in capitalism, or may not have the resources to take advantage of it. The Church has always worried about the poor. This Commission is just part and parcel of that concern, and they're always having discussions on what might be done about poverty. But any findings that comes of it have no bearing on the teachings of the Church that bind Catholics.

46 posted on 11/06/2011 9:50:13 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: BenKenobi

Eschatology deals with things to come, not life after the first death.

Yes, Catholicism firmly believes Christ bequeathed the authority to bind and loose via Peter and that they ultimately and exclusively have such authority today.

Indeed they seek to remain obedient to other commands, such as the Great Commission, but when one fails to place faith alone in Christ alone, the object of their thinking corrupts their ability to work through faith in Him.


47 posted on 11/07/2011 3:10:48 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Morgana

Wish I could help, but Francisco has the Crud.


48 posted on 11/07/2011 4:21:42 AM PST by Tax-chick (I'm sure your dog likes you.)
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To: edpc

You wrote:

“Whatever credibility you thought you had on the subject evaporated with that idiotic statement.”

Okay, let’s test you: Tell me the exact year the Catholic Church was founded and by whom?

“Anyone with a pedestrian knowledge of religion....any religion....knows The Vatican and other religious institutions have had times when they’ve functioned like a government bureaucracies.....and worse.”

Did you fail High School Logic? Be honest, you never took logic, right? The fact that the Vatican has a bureaucracy does not mean it funstions like other bureaucracies. Your ignorance is showing.

“I’m out of touch? Open a history book.”

I have a PhD in History. My emphasis was Church History. Just keep embarrassing yourself there, chief.


49 posted on 11/07/2011 4:24:46 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: Kolath

I think you are forgetting much of the Old Testament. Remember how the prophets denounced those who oppressed the poor and powerless?

Economics is a human activity. As such it is open to scrutiny in regard to morality. It’s just that simple.


50 posted on 11/07/2011 4:27:22 AM PST by vladimir998
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