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2 recent Articles focusing on the testing of E-cat
Focus.IT magazine and Vortex-L Mailing List ^ | Nov 19 2011 | various

Posted on 11/20/2011 9:55:18 PM PST by Kevmo

2 recent Articles focusing on the testing of E-cat

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http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-refuses-new-test-offer-confirms-first-customer-as-military-agency-which-has-ordered-13-more-units/

Rossi Refuses New Test Offer, Confirms First Customer as Military Agency Which has Ordered 13 More Units
November 18, 2011
The Italian magazine Focus has published some public correspondence between Andrea Rossi and Dr. Francesco Celani, First Researcher at the Italian National Laboratory of Frascati. Celani has requested that Rossi provide an E-Cat which he, Celani, would put through rigorous and carefully measured week long or more test. Following the testing a scientific report would immediately be written and published.

Rossi politely declined the offer, stating, as he has many times before, that he sees no need to do another public test.”Those who have been following the developments of our adventure for months, like Focus’readers have, know that the critical moment has finally gone: our 1megawat pilot plant persuaded the investors.Soon it will be operative in a real industrial context, and as well as producing thermal power, it will be subject of studies itself. For all the reasons below, i don’t see any point in having another E-Cat test, that, in my opinion, doesn’t need to prove “weather” it works or not.”
It was also confirmed by Rossi that the customer who purchased the first plant was from a military organization, and that this same customer has ordered more units. Rossi said “It will be a 13 MW thermal power plant, consisting of 13 Energy 1MW catalyzers like the one in operation in Bologna on October 28″
Rossi also explains that the work he will be doing with the University of Bologna will go beyond merely testing the E-Cat units — they will be involved in studying the nuclear reaction phenomena with a view to coming to a solid theoretical understanding of what is happening. He said they may even arrive at a new theoretical model.

He writes, “Once we understand the phenomenon, we could discover new, unexpected ways to exploit it, as i believe it will happen. Today, it’s very hard for everyone to imagine an enegetic scenario where fossil fuels are no longer needed, still… i firmly believe that day isn’t that far away.”





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http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg56145.html
Re: [Vo]:Help in testing a E-Cat
Aussie Guy E-Cat
Sat, 19 Nov 2011 23:33:29 -0800
I intend to use a digital flow rate monitor, inserted into the intake water hose. The data logger will record 16 input and output data points every 100 ms or finer if necessary. Amazing what GB memories can do. Thanks for the lower flow rate and use of a bucket / basin for secondary checking suggestion. Always nice to double check the digitals, being an OLD analog (magazine and technology) man who, when first touching a CK722 transistor, said WTF?

AG


On 11/20/2011 5:51 PM, Robert Leguillon wrote:
For the secondary water flow, use a lower flow rate, creating a higher delta T.
Then, the output flow can be diverted into any basin (and periodically
emptied), with the temperature measured there. You could use a thermocouple
inside of the input water flow for measure, but keep a disconnect in the line
to double-check (by emptying some into a basin as well)

Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote:

I have just emailed Rossi with my interest in purchasing a 100 kW E-Cat
plant. I do thank Vortex members (on the forum and privately) for
providing the behind the scenes insight into the history of LENR that
helped to make this decision happen. My bags are ready to be packed,
funds locked down and I'm ready to fly to Bologna to see and test a
E-Cat reactor. What I didn't know or were a bit rusty about in measuring
a E-Cat has been provided by the excellent Vortex forum.


My intention is to pay the funds into a Escrow account, request a test
of a single E-Cat and if that is found to be OK, to proceed to pre
delivery testing the 100 kW plant. Failure of either test to meet a min
COP 6 result would trigger the return of all my Escrowed funds.


I would appreciate suggestions as to the necessary equipment (manuf and
model) you would suggest I would need to make the initial single E-Cat
test measurements. I do have many thermocouples and DVMs with temp
ranges but no flow meters. Does anybody know the manuf and model of the
heat exchanger used in the 6 Oct demo as I plan to use that setup to do
the delta T measurements. I do plan on taking a 16 channel data logger
and digital oscilloscope (both battery powered) to check the input
energy in ALL the wires going into the E-Cat.


From what I have read here, the 2 temp probes should be inserted
through the wall of the water hose feeding the heat exchanges enough so
they are approx central to the water flow, while not touching the inside
wall of the water hose and likewise for the outlet water hose. Is a 45
deg insertion angle acceptable?

AG




Re: [Vo]:Help in testing a E-Cat
Aussie Guy E-Cat
Sun, 20 Nov 2011 04:20:55 -0800
A working and reliable product with back-up and support is everything. I'm a Black Box kind of guy who has been a engineer long enough to know that both devices are very early stage work in progress. I don't expect to see what I would see if I visited ABB or GE. Have opened up a channel to Defkalion.

This could be a good match with a diathermic oil based LENR heat generator: http://www.ge-energy.com/products_and_services/services/oil_and_gas_services/oregen.jsp

AG


On 11/20/2011 10:26 PM, Peter Heckert wrote:
Am 20.11.2011 09:47, schrieb Aussie Guy E-Cat:
Amazing statements. Again with no basis in fact. Just more straw man totally negative spin stuff. I've been a power system engineer for probably longer than you have been alive. I do know how to construct a test of the E-Cat. I have also been used by several patent attorneys and investor groups around Australia to devise tests for OU devices, which I should add the inventors never agreed to.

What information I can share as I move through the process I will share. However that is not the intent of the process. My intent is to make money from the E-Cat.


Bottom of Form



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Politics; Science
KEYWORDS: cmns; coldfusion; ecat; lenr
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-refuses-new-test-offer-confirms-first-customer-as-military-agency-which-has-ordered-13-more-units/

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg56145.html

The Cold Fusion Ping List

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles

-------------------------------------------------------------- http://ecatnews.com/?p=1144

Unfortunately, if Rossi did the following:

1) hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps,

2) created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos,

3) bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos

4) arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real,

5) got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field,

6) got Bushnell to make a fool of himself,

7) and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum ----- or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow,

8) sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; ----- certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device ----- and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan

9) and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion ----- to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, ----- to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam

[the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars ----- until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table ----- because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes ----- and knows that they will just take his word for it ----- and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) ]

10) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out

then, yes, all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses.

1 posted on 11/20/2011 9:55:20 PM PST by Kevmo
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To: dangerdoc; citizen; Lancey Howard; Liberty1970; Red Badger; Wonder Warthog; PA Engineer; ...

http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-refuses-new-test-offer-confirms-first-customer-as-military-agency-which-has-ordered-13-more-units/
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex- href=”mailto:l@eskimo.com”>l@eskimo.com/msg56145.html

The Cold Fusion Ping List

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles

Note that the Vortex member’s motivation is to make money.


2 posted on 11/20/2011 9:56:12 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo
Get your plans for a fuelless engine at www.fuellesspower.com!
Since they want $70.00 for these plan I suspect their motivation is to make money too and so they must have a workable idea to...to...well, a fuel and his money are soon separated.
And....They take PayPal! Just read this from their site:

“FREE ENERGY - FREE POWER FOR YOUR HOME, GARAGE, CAR OR TRUCK!
These type of motors have been seen and demonstrated on the Johnny Carson TV show as well as
many news and radio shows all across the country in the early 1970’s and 1980’s

FREE POWER / FREE ELECTRICITY 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week!”

3 posted on 11/20/2011 11:30:51 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Kevmo
Note that the Vortex member’s motivation is to make money.
Note that Rossi turned him down. I guess he has bigger suckers customers in mind. [LINK]

Still waiting for:


4 posted on 11/21/2011 12:13:05 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Kevmo
Since you insist on repeatedly posting this drivel, I will, from time to time, post corrections
Unfortunately, if Rossi did the following:

1) hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps,
They're called "Shills" and they are a typical part of any big scam. Notice that after almost a month, there is still no evidence at all that Rossi's mysterious "NATO Colenel" actually exists.
2) created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos,
Again, not at all unusual for a big scam. STEORN has been doing this for over a decade. TILLEY and PRIEST kept their scams going for more than five years each.
3) bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos

Scientists are often the easiest to fool. They assume that everyone involved is telling the truth. They assume that any falsehoods will be uncovered when the experiments are replicated by independent researchers. Unfortunately, Rossi won't allow that, so all they have is Rossi's word.

Notice that Rossi refuses to share, even with his associates listed above, how the E-Cat works, how it is made and what nuclear reactions may or may not be occurring within. Levi wrote a paper where he speculated about what might be going on, but his paper doesn't match what little actual evidence Rossi has produced.

4) arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real,

5) got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field,

6) got Bushnell to make a fool of himself,
Whether "cold fusion" really exists is an entirely separate issue from whether or not Rossi is a con artist. They both could be true. After all, the fact that electric cars are real didn't prevent TILLEY from creating an elaborate, multi-year fraud around his phoney electric car.

NASA stated that Rossi had not proven his device is producing excess energy. [LINK]

SPAWAR has denied that they had, or were considering purchasing an E-Cat [LINK]

There isn't any actual evidence that either The Defense Threat Reduction Agency or The Defense Intelligence Agency have had anything to do with Rossi. Both are nothing more than rumors spread by Rossi's partner, Sterling D. Allan.

7) and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum ----- or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow,

8) sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; ----- certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device ----- and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan

9) and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion ----- to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, ----- to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam
Note that both Defkalion and AmpEnergo were created specifically to hype Rossi's claims. Also note that you can't show any evidence AmpErengo has actually paid Rossi anything.
[the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars ----- until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table ----- because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes ----- and knows that they will just take his word for it ----- and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) ]
There is no evidence that there was a "genuine" customer at the October 28th dog & pony show. There is no evidence that the mysterious "NATO Colonel" who supposedly ran the test for the "secret customer" actually exists. In spite of the massive amount of research being done on this story, no one has found even one reference to this man other than Rossi's claim. It's incredible that a NATO Colonel and professional engineer wouldn't leave any trace of himself anywhere. No professional organizations, no newpaper stories about his being promoted in NATO, no nothing.

10) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out
Rossi has tightly controlled every aspect of the dog & pony shows he has performed. Your friend, Jed Rothwell, turned down an invitation to attend a Rossi performance because Rossi wouldn't allow him to bring his own test equipment.

Interestingly, the one test that was supposedly performed to "silence the skeptics" (Febuary, 2011), had no outside observers at all, and Rossi never produced the actual data from that test. Performing a secret test and refusing to even release the raw data from that test is hardly a way to convince the skeptics.

then, yes, all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses.
No one has ever accused Rossi of being an idiot. There's no question that he's very smart. The question is whether he's used his intelligence to create a wonderful new invention, or just a new variation on the typical con job.

You choose to believe Rossi, even knowing that he's lying about at least some of his claims. I choose not to believe Rossi, for exactly the same reason.

5 posted on 11/21/2011 2:09:12 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Kevmo
The explanation of how the E-Sat works sounds similar this:
Entabulator

6 posted on 11/21/2011 3:26:35 AM PST by preacher (Communism has only killed 100 million people: Let's give it another chance!)
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To: preacher
The explanation of how the E-Sat works sounds similar this: Entabulator
Wow! It all makes sense now!
7 posted on 11/21/2011 3:50:36 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
FYI, you missed commenting on this thread about Defkalion. For that matter so did the rest of the E-cat bashing crowd. What's the reason for that? I miss Codetoads big alert and all the dismissive comments. :-)

Seriously, your proposal that Defkalion (not to mention Ampenergo) is simply a front organization operating at Rossi's behest suggests Rossi has some huge resources backing him. Now Defkalion says they have their own, improved E-cat device, and they appear to be operating in competition with him. That's quite a conspiracy theory now. It raises the question of who would have the funding necessary to put together this degree of an operation. I doubt Rossi has those kind of resources simply from selling his house!

8 posted on 11/21/2011 6:10:23 AM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Liberty1970
Seriously, your proposal that Defkalion (not to mention Ampenergo) is simply a front organization operating at Rossi's behest suggests Rossi has some huge resources backing him
I'm not aware that there is any "huge resources" behind either Defkalion or AmpEnergo. Their web sites certainly don't give any such information. The Defkalion site looks nice, but doesn't have any concrete information. The AmpEnergo site is a joke. (I spent too much time over the weekend trying to track down any useful information about any of the companies associated with Rossi, and couldn't find any.)

If you have any actual information about these companies (other than rumor-mongering by Sterling D. Allan, who is Rossi's shill) I would love to see it.

FYI, you missed commenting on this thread about Defkalion. For that matter so did the rest of the E-cat bashing crowd.
I did see it, but muawiyah had already turned it into his own wacky theory thread (North Korean Weak-Force bombs and such), so I didn't bother to post there. If you want me to, I'd be happy to do so.

We'll see if Defkalion actually produces a working device. Rossi so far has failed to provide any independent verification of any of his claims. So far, neither has Defkalion.

As soon as either one provides a device to an independent, credible (i.e. no "secret customer") organization, and that organization announces that they have tested the device and found that it does produce more energy than it consumes, I'll reevaluate.

Any excess energy would be very interesting news, but since both Rossi and Defkalion are claiming to be producing massive amounts of excess energy (enough to make it worth using these in industrial, commercial and residential areas), I'll expect to see that before I'm convinced that there is no fraud going on.

Until then, I'm skeptical.

9 posted on 11/21/2011 7:08:40 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.

I’m currently just standing down and waiting for an independent customer to come forward with a product review.


10 posted on 11/21/2011 7:52:52 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.)
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To: Liberty1970
Just some additional info:

Defkalion was created to sell Rossi's E-Cat. They say so themselves HERE. They have apparently removed the more obvious references to this from the web pages linked from their home page.

Over the weekend, I looked up the business record for the NH AmpEnergo, and found that they were created in April, 2011, which certainly suggests that they could have been created specifically for Rossi, since that was in the middle of Rossi's "publicity tour". Right now the NH web site to look up businesses is down, so I can't point you to the original record at the moment.

However, I did find THIS link, with the information at the bottom of the page. It shows AmpEnergo's New Hampshire address as:

116-G South River Road
Bedford NH 03110

According to THIS link, Rossi's Leonardo Corporation address is:

116 South River Road
Bedford, N.H. 03110

Looks like they have a pretty intimate relationship.

That's all I know about these businesses. If you have more information, please share!

11 posted on 11/21/2011 8:01:55 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.

Oh, I should have clarified what I meant. Of course Defkalion and AmpEnergo are created as a result of the E-cat. But if this is a scam someone has to be footing the bill for them while waiting for a payoff to make it all worthwhile.

As you mention, there may not be as much to them as one might assume. It depends on whether we can take anything at face value. For example, when Defkalion had an open forum a Defkalion rep said that 4 employees were taking turns fielding questions on the forum. And the photos from their lab show a normally equipped industrial lab comparable to what I’d expect.

This could all be a front. It’s conceivable there is one feverish associate of Rossi (or even Rossi himself) hammering out emails and posts on the Defkalion front, and photoshopping pics of the Hyperion in photos of a lab that doesn’t belong to him, and so on. Personally I wouldn’t take it that far. I suspect the ‘4 employees’ comment was an honest and candid one, and they represent only a fraction of their workforce. Likewise I suspect the lab photos are real enough. I don’t have proof. But if I’m right it does suggest someone with millions of $$ to invest is backing this, or multiple someones. I don’t think Rossi personally has those resources.


12 posted on 11/21/2011 11:06:23 AM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Liberty1970

I should add that the Defkalion press conference a while back showed several people associated with the company. I suppose that they could all be hired actors or something, but they’d have to know they were involved in a fraud. So I’m skeptical that such a stunt could be pulled off (and then repeated in subsequent videos and so forth) without something coming unglued sordid details start coming out.


13 posted on 11/21/2011 11:09:34 AM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Johnny B.
A bit more info on the many companies of Andrea Rossi...

Google Maps list 28 different companies at the "116 South River Road" address. Neither AmpEnergo nor Leonardo are listed.

However, HERE is a "NAI Global", a commercial real estate company, with the same address and the same phone number as the earlier post listed for Rossi's Leonardo company. The business manager is listed as Karl Norwood, the same name as the founder of AmpEnergo.

I'm not sure what to make of this, other than they have a very close relationship, for longer than any public knowledge of their relationship.

Later: I just discovered that "EON" which is the company that Rossi supposedly SOLD to pay for his E-Cat development, is also an unlisted tenant of "116 South River Road, Bedford NH" using the same phone number as all the others.

A quick review of the other tenants of the address shows that none of them are using the same phone number, so that number is not a common number for the building.

What a tangled web!

14 posted on 11/21/2011 11:40:47 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Kevmo
So a military customer gets only a single test of the ecat, in which it performs below 50% specification with a big generator hooked up to it. Not only are they stupid enough to buy and haul away this underperforming, rusty pot boiler, but they buy 13 more.

Sure, I'll believe that.

15 posted on 11/21/2011 11:53:24 AM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Liberty1970
Just for entertainment, while we're waiting for someone to step forward and proclaim Rossi's E-Cat legit...

HERE is a great example of just how sophisticated and involved a "long con" can be.

If Rossi is a con artist, he is nowhere near the most elaborate or sophisticated.

16 posted on 11/21/2011 11:58:44 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
What a tangled web!

I'll leave it to the prosecutor and jury to figure out.

17 posted on 11/21/2011 12:05:17 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Moonman62
So a military customer gets only a single test of the ecat, in which it performs below 50% specification with a big generator hooked up to it.
Based on the discussions on the Vortex, there's no particular reason to believe that the "MegaWatt" E-Cat generated any more than 70KW (7%) of the stated capacity.

That's based entirely on the data supplied by Rossi and his mysterious "NATO Colonel", with the assumption that they only boiled a trivial amount of the water in the system. There is no evidence that they really boiled all, or even most of the water. That's based entirely on Rossi's unsubstantiated claims (as has been true for all of his previous dog & pony shows).

18 posted on 11/21/2011 12:08:30 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Kevmo
A mailing list is not an article of news. This is just more blog pimping on your part.


19 posted on 11/21/2011 12:37:46 PM PST by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Johnny B.
If Rossi is a con artist, he is nowhere near the most elaborate or sophisticated.

Key difference: this link speaks of a financial scam. You can drag that out 'forever' because there is no physical product. Whereas Rossi at some point has to either get an investor to send him $$, or a buyer to do the same.

Of the two, scamming investors definitely makes more sense to me. The buyer is going to expect a product, and for the kind of large-scale devices we are talking about here at $2 million apiece, any real buyers are going to be sophisticated enough to judge whether they are getting net output (and how much) from an E-cat.

Yet things seem to be proceeding full-steam, with no calls from Rossi for investors. And if we are to believe them, they say buyers are to put funds in escrow until satisfied. (Even if they did not, it would only take a real buyer or two before the fraud was discovered and everything blew up).

So far the E-cat bashers have pointed, validly, to a lot of disappointing demonstrations and so forth as evidence for fraud. But I also recall many saying there would be no 1 MW unit, and that came to fruition. So what is Rossi's real game? Those of you saying the E-cat is a fraud are not giving any serious explanations as to how this fraud is supposed to be working. Linking to other frauds that have clear and important dissimilarities to the E-cat is no help.

20 posted on 11/21/2011 1:04:52 PM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Liberty1970
Key difference: this link speaks of a financial scam. You can drag that out 'forever' because there is no physical product. Whereas Rossi at some point has to either get an investor to send him $$, or a buyer to do the same.
Have you reviewed any of the links I have provided on "energy" and other investment scams? They typically run for at least five years, and bring in millions or tens-of-millions of dollars.

The complete lack of a working product has not stopped any of them.

21 posted on 11/21/2011 1:21:32 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Liberty1970
Linking to other frauds that have clear and important dissimilarities to the E-cat is no help.
Steorn is an investment scam still going on. They've been at it for a decade, and have received something like 20 million Euros. They've never demonstrated a working product, and they have had no customers in all that time.

Tilley (and here) lasted more than 5 years, and collected millions from investors. He boasted that there couldn't be any fraud because he wouldn't take any advance money from customers (sound familiar?). He had impressive demonstrations of his (fake) device, which fooled a lot of people, including Rossi's partner, Sterling D. Allan. LINK

These are the two I have on tap that are most like Rossi. There are more, but I would have to hunt them down and find reasonable links to provide (I don't want anyone having to take my word about anything).

22 posted on 11/21/2011 1:32:37 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Liberty1970
But I also recall many saying there would be no 1 MW unit, and that came to fruition.
Sorry I broke up these responses.

What evidence do you have that Rossi tested a 1MW unit? What evidence do you have that Rossi even tested a 450KW unit?

The only "evidence" we have is Rossi's unsubstantiated word. No outsiders were allowed to even monitor the test. His "secret customer" with his "secret NATO Colonel" supposedly ran the test, but no one has been able to dig up anything on either one. I find it incredible that, given all the interest in this story, that no one has found a single reference to this mystery retired NATO Colonel prior to the day Rossi did his test.

Also, there is significant doubt about even the 470KW number from Rossi. The data supports as little as 70KW (7% of what Rossi claimed the system should be able to do), and there is no particular reason to assume it was any more than that. And, given there was a 500KW generator hooked up and running the whole time, pulling 70KW out of it would be trivial.

23 posted on 11/21/2011 1:40:10 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
The examples you give both focus on the investment side as the vehicle for their scam, which is consistent with what I said earlier. So, we will want to watch and see if Rossi at some point asks for investment funds. So far he has not - so the analogy breaks down. But a big red flag goes up the minute he asks for investors without independent buyers confirming his device clearly. The fact that Rossi claims to be selling E-cats, not promising vaporware, is a huge distinction as well, though that needs to be verified obviously.

My point about the 1 MW unit was that people doubted it would exist and said that the October 28 demo would be canceled or delayed. I agree that the Oct. 28 demo was disappointing for those of us spectating. But the event did come off, and the 1 MW unit did appear. Someone built it, whether it is real or a sham. My basic point here has been that for this to be scam it has to be bigger than just Rossi. A good deal bigger. Maybe it's the mafia or something, but I think the E-cat-bashers focus is too limited.

24 posted on 11/21/2011 4:20:51 PM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Johnny B.
Wacky?

The greater part of my comments had to do with the second controlled test involved in actualizing virtual particles popping up out of the vacuum.

That's quite possibly SEVERAL TIMES MORE SIGNIFICANT than the first fission-fission bomb at Trinity Site.

Wacky stuff fur shur!

25 posted on 11/21/2011 5:32:47 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Johnny B.
The way you find the con-artists co-located at a single address is you find out WHAT OTHER ADDRESSES that single site may have and then you track them down and find out who else does business there that you wouldn't otherwise know about.

If you don't find the OTHER ADDRESSES that may mean that site only has one address.

Such sites are actively NOT preferred by con-artists.

Give you some examples ~ an office building is on a corner. It could have an address directly on two streets. However, one of those streets (typical in Europe, less common in America) may have TWO or more names ~ one was given to it for main thoroughfare purposes ages ago. The other name or names showed up as honorable mentions for famous men who may or may not have lived there.

You have have a THIRD group of addresses focused on that one building if they call it a PLACE.

Conrad Black's publishing group looks for places like that to set up shop ~ not saying he's a conman but he did spend time in jail for defrauding investors and stockholders in his own company (where he even screwed himself).

Finding that two companies appear co-located at a single address may mean nothing more than that they are owned by a holding company and this is a lawyer's office where the papers are kept.

Keep digging guys. Give us multiple addresses for single sites where Rossi or his buddies ever did business, come up with the other names, and let's see who does which to who with what.

26 posted on 11/21/2011 5:43:42 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: CodeToad

This is posted in Blogs, so... kindly get lost.


27 posted on 11/21/2011 6:18:21 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Moonman62

This will be my standard post to you that says you’re not worth trying to have reasonable discussion, also says “buzz off” & doesn’t leave crickets. But if it offends you to the point that you get it removed like my prior innocuous citation then I’ll have to come up with some other ‘ignore button’ post.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/2800058/posts?page=55#55
To: Moonman62

This means I have nothing more to say to you about LENR. Bye.

55 posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:41:07 PM by Kevmo (Caveat lurkor pro se ipso judicatis: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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28 posted on 11/21/2011 6:31:52 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Johnny B.

Since you insist on repeatedly posting this drivel, I will, from time to time, post corrections
***that is your right as a FReeper, your right to be wrong.


29 posted on 11/21/2011 6:52:36 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Johnny B.

Keep waiting and keep arguing from silence, a classic logical fallacy.


30 posted on 11/21/2011 6:56:50 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Liberty1970
So, we will want to watch and see if Rossi at some point asks for investment funds. So far he has not
How do you know he isn't? Because he said so?
The fact that Rossi claims to be selling E-cats, not promising vaporware, is a huge distinction as well, though that needs to be verified obviously.
I haven't seen any E-Cats, have you? I haven't seen anyone admitting to being a customer, let alone receiving an E-Cat, working or not, have you? So far, Rossi is selling vaporware.

Review Tilly. He had several public demonstrations of what he claimed to be a working "self-powering" car. Sterling Allen wrote about how he drove the car all day and at the end of the day, it was still fully charged. Keep in mind that Tilly was proven beyond a doubt to be nothing but a fraud.

31 posted on 11/22/2011 2:10:15 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: muawiyah
The way you find the con-artists co-located at a single address is you find out WHAT OTHER ADDRESSES that single site may have and then you track them down and find out who else does business there that you wouldn't otherwise know about.
Maybe it's just that I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but I don't follow that at all!

All I'm pointing out is that Rossi's old company, his current company and his new American business partner (AmpEnergo) all operate out of a single office.

I'm not sure what this proves, except that they obviously have a far closer and longer relationship than they are presenting to the public.

It also suggests (but doesn't prove) that this is a much smaller operation than people are being led to believe.

32 posted on 11/22/2011 2:19:31 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Kevmo
Keep waiting and keep arguing from silence, a classic logical fallacy.
Frankly, I can't think of anything to say that would make you look any more loony than what you yourself post.
33 posted on 11/22/2011 3:04:27 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Liberty1970; All
I'll throw this out to anyone who cares to comment...

Since Rossi's "secret customer" wanted to remain secret, why did they allow Rossi to invite a bunch of outside observers to the test, and why did they allow Rossi's friends to videotape the event and post it to YouTube?

They could have easily keep the test, if not secret, at least private, so they wouldn't have to worry about being "outed".

Rossi could have held a separate event showing off his MegaWatt E-Cat, and then he could have allowed the observers to actually take measurements and examine the actual operation of the device, instead of just standing around and looking at, essentially, nothing.

So, it makes no sense to combine a public demonstration with a secret acceptance test by a secret company. Especially if it were true that the "secret customer" was running everything and Rossi was simply there as an observer (as has been suggested).

What does make sense is that this was not a "secret company acceptance test" at all, but a publicity stunt by Rossi.

Please feel free to explain to me why a "secret company" doing acceptance testing on a multi-million-dollar purchase, would turn it into a dog & pony show. I'd really like to know.

34 posted on 11/22/2011 3:46:58 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
Some situations are quite normal. There are, for example, small law offices in the State of Delaware that are the site of the papers of incorporation for THOUSANDS of corporations.

If a court wants to "git holt" of one of those corporations they simply send a notice to that law office.

There's never a reason to get excited about several firms at one address.

On the other hand if the site actually has SEVERAL DIFFERENT ADDRESSES (something your typical layperson seems to never understand) and your cluster of compadres you are looking into are involved in the NAMES at those multiple addresses at that one site, that's your first clue that something may not be quite kosher.

Then there are the commercial mail receiving agencies.

If you were the post office you would understand all of these things else you could never deliver the mail or catch non-payers or criminals.

35 posted on 11/22/2011 5:14:40 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
There's never a reason to get excited about several firms at one address.
You're missing the point.

THIS is the office building in question. HERE is a list of the other companies in this small "professional office" park. It is clearly not some sort of "mail drop".

Note that the other companies located in this office park (mostly insurance or financial branch offices) each have their own phone numbers.

However, Rossi, AmpEnergo and NAI Global (run by Karl Norwood, the founder of AmpEnergo) are using the same phone number. That's strong evidence that they are not just neighbors in the same office park, but in fact they are sharing the same office.

According to the Internet Archive, Rossi's company has been there since before May, 2010 (LINK).

I'm not sure what this means other than the founder of AmpEnergo and Rossi have been sharing an office for at least 18 months. This doesn't prove, or even suggest anything illegal, but it does show that they have a longer and closer relationship than they've publicly admitted. It also opens the possibility that this is a much smaller operation than the observers have been led to believe.

36 posted on 11/22/2011 6:03:01 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
You are not sure what it means ~ how about THEY use the same secretarial service ~ co-located there or somewhere else ~ the magic machine behind that is called a PBX.

These guys might well be somewhere else.

Many small firms hire secretarial support services ~ and in this incredibly interconnected world, you might be able to find one in India to support your operations in Brazil (if you wanted English support), or maybe in China to support an operation in Malaysia or a number of other countries.

This has been going on for a very long time.

37 posted on 11/22/2011 6:11:31 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Johnny B.
I'm not sure what this means other than the founder of AmpEnergo and Rossi have been sharing an office for at least 18 months. This doesn't prove, or even suggest anything illegal, but it does show that they have a longer and closer relationship than they've publicly admitted. It also opens the possibility that this is a much smaller operation than the observers have been led to believe.

This whole multi-faceted dog and pony show smells to high heaven. No matter how you turn it around, it gives you the same appearance of fraudulence, deceit and showmanship.
38 posted on 11/22/2011 6:28:11 AM PST by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: Johnny B.

NAI Norwood, founded by a couple named Karl and Louise Norwood back in 1968 ~ would now logically be owned by the same couple in their late 60s or early 70s. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/business/899720-192/norwood-group-times-its-real-estate-sales.html featuring Karl Norwood of the Karl and Louise Norwoods (that’s his sister BTW ~ she has a different married name). NAI is their company. This picture has more of your conspirators !!


39 posted on 11/22/2011 6:28:11 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
You are not sure what it means ~ how about THEY use the same secretarial service ~ co-located there or somewhere else ~ the magic machine behind that is called a PBX.
Except that all three companies (Rossi's EON company, AmpEnergo and NAI Global [owned by the same man who founded AmpEnergo]) list this address as their primary business address with the state of New Hampshire.

Even if they were using a phone service, it is unusual to use the same number for separate companies (such phone services usually provide separate numbers to each of their customers so they can provide custom greetings for each customer).

And, it's obviously not a common number for the businesses in that building, since all of the other companies in the building have their own phone numbers.

My brother runs a machine shop, and at one point they created a new, wholly-owned subsidiary to build automated assembly lines. The new company was in the same building (which made sense since they were owned by the same people and the machine shop was making the parts to go into the assembly lines), but they had additional phone numbers created for the new company so that when they answered the phone they could give the appropriate company name.

Sharing the same phone number means they have to ask every caller which company they are trying to call, which is not very professional.

This suggests that both Rossi's company and AmpEnergo may only be separate companies "in name only". If this is true, it would be deceptive (but not necessarily illegal) to publicize their "deals" as between independent companies.

40 posted on 11/22/2011 6:41:21 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
I have a lawyer friend. His wife is a CPA. They have DOZENS of companies under which they do business. They answer the phones the same way for each.

This is not unusual particularly where you do not have a high volume of "call ins" (like walk ins at a shopping center).

NO ONE CARES in those cases.

So, they share a phone number in New Hampshire. They seem to do business in Italy and Florida.

41 posted on 11/22/2011 6:56:32 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: ZX12R
If this was designed to deceive then why is it so easy for me to dive in and find them?

Can you imagine how many guys named Andrea Rossi live in New England? Bet some of the old mob families have half a dozen of them each.

They get a drop in New Hampshire just to evade the Massachusetts state police ~ or maybe even the FBI. Some of them are fairy naive about cops. They don't realize the post office has the Postal Inspection Service which is essentially the same thing as all the other federal police agencies.

Once upon a time they had half the Inspectors assigned out to the DEA!

White Pages says there are 71 of these guys with listed non-cell phone numbers in the United States.

42 posted on 11/22/2011 7:05:09 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Can you imagine how many guys named Andrea Rossi live in New England? Bet some of the old mob families have half a dozen of them each.
Nice attempt to try to change the subject.
43 posted on 11/22/2011 7:25:15 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: muawiyah

I guess I’m just noting how convenient it is that Rossi and AmpEnergo were able to put together their big distribution deal without even having to walk down the hallway.


44 posted on 11/22/2011 7:29:08 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: muawiyah

It seems to me you are trying very hard to avoid the simplest explanation to an unknown. Occam’s Razor might be a useful tool here.


45 posted on 11/22/2011 7:30:34 AM PST by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: Johnny B.
You're the guy claiming you know exactly who this Andrea Rossi is and yet you claimed the same about the old guy and his sister ~ noting the existence of 70 OTHER Andrea Rossi's is quite relevant to this debate.

Frankly, the last time there was a guy with my particular name on this Earth France was Catholic, and the Black Death had yet to happen ~ this guy has 70 doppelgangers already!

46 posted on 11/22/2011 7:33:26 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: ZX12R
Occam's Razor has its uses in evaluating the utility of any given mathematical proof ~ on the other hand it has little use in sorting names ~ and here you have 72 Andrea Rossi's.

Statistics tells me that if I have 12 characters each with 10 characteristics, I will need at least 20 results for each combination of characters with characteristics possible to be able to prove or disprove significance.

47 posted on 11/22/2011 7:38:01 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Did you forget to take some prescription medicine this morning?


48 posted on 11/22/2011 7:51:23 AM PST by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: muawiyah
You're the guy claiming you know exactly who this Andrea Rossi is and yet you claimed the same about the old guy and his sister ~ noting the existence of 70 OTHER Andrea Rossi's is quite relevant to this debate.
We both know that this conversation is about the Andrea Rossi who is currently trying to sell his E-Cat, and the Karl Norwood who founded AmpEnergo and who is involved with The Norwood Group and NAI Global.

As usual, you are bringing in all sorts of irrelevant comments into the conversation. You're obviously a smart person, but you veer off on so many tangents that it's not worth trying to follow your tortured reasoning.

49 posted on 11/22/2011 7:52:18 AM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.

Karl in New Hampshire is involved in NAI Norwood. He also has a business deal with the adjacent dairy farm. They build little office buildings with driveways and parking, then sell them to investors who rent them out. You can find the entire NAI operation worldwide at: http://www.naiglobal.com/naimembersites.aspx


50 posted on 11/22/2011 7:59:55 AM PST by muawiyah
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