Posted on 11/20/2011 9:55:18 PM PST by Kevmo
2 recent Articles focusing on the testing of E-cat
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http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-refuses-new-test-offer-confirms-first-customer-as-military-agency-which-has-ordered-13-more-units/
Rossi Refuses New Test Offer, Confirms First Customer as Military Agency Which has Ordered 13 More Units
November 18, 2011
The Italian magazine Focus has published some public correspondence between Andrea Rossi and Dr. Francesco Celani, First Researcher at the Italian National Laboratory of Frascati. Celani has requested that Rossi provide an E-Cat which he, Celani, would put through rigorous and carefully measured week long or more test. Following the testing a scientific report would immediately be written and published.
Rossi politely declined the offer, stating, as he has many times before, that he sees no need to do another public test.”Those who have been following the developments of our adventure for months, like Focus’readers have, know that the critical moment has finally gone: our 1megawat pilot plant persuaded the investors.Soon it will be operative in a real industrial context, and as well as producing thermal power, it will be subject of studies itself. For all the reasons below, i don’t see any point in having another E-Cat test, that, in my opinion, doesn’t need to prove “weather” it works or not.”
It was also confirmed by Rossi that the customer who purchased the first plant was from a military organization, and that this same customer has ordered more units. Rossi said “It will be a 13 MW thermal power plant, consisting of 13 Energy 1MW catalyzers like the one in operation in Bologna on October 28″
Rossi also explains that the work he will be doing with the University of Bologna will go beyond merely testing the E-Cat units — they will be involved in studying the nuclear reaction phenomena with a view to coming to a solid theoretical understanding of what is happening. He said they may even arrive at a new theoretical model.
He writes, “Once we understand the phenomenon, we could discover new, unexpected ways to exploit it, as i believe it will happen. Today, it’s very hard for everyone to imagine an enegetic scenario where fossil fuels are no longer needed, still… i firmly believe that day isn’t that far away.”
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http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg56145.html
Re: [Vo]:Help in testing a E-Cat
Aussie Guy E-Cat
Sat, 19 Nov 2011 23:33:29 -0800
I intend to use a digital flow rate monitor, inserted into the intake water hose. The data logger will record 16 input and output data points every 100 ms or finer if necessary. Amazing what GB memories can do. Thanks for the lower flow rate and use of a bucket / basin for secondary checking suggestion. Always nice to double check the digitals, being an OLD analog (magazine and technology) man who, when first touching a CK722 transistor, said WTF?
AG
On 11/20/2011 5:51 PM, Robert Leguillon wrote:
For the secondary water flow, use a lower flow rate, creating a higher delta T.
Then, the output flow can be diverted into any basin (and periodically
emptied), with the temperature measured there. You could use a thermocouple
inside of the input water flow for measure, but keep a disconnect in the line
to double-check (by emptying some into a basin as well)
Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote:
I have just emailed Rossi with my interest in purchasing a 100 kW E-Cat
plant. I do thank Vortex members (on the forum and privately) for
providing the behind the scenes insight into the history of LENR that
helped to make this decision happen. My bags are ready to be packed,
funds locked down and I'm ready to fly to Bologna to see and test a
E-Cat reactor. What I didn't know or were a bit rusty about in measuring
a E-Cat has been provided by the excellent Vortex forum.
My intention is to pay the funds into a Escrow account, request a test
of a single E-Cat and if that is found to be OK, to proceed to pre
delivery testing the 100 kW plant. Failure of either test to meet a min
COP 6 result would trigger the return of all my Escrowed funds.
I would appreciate suggestions as to the necessary equipment (manuf and
model) you would suggest I would need to make the initial single E-Cat
test measurements. I do have many thermocouples and DVMs with temp
ranges but no flow meters. Does anybody know the manuf and model of the
heat exchanger used in the 6 Oct demo as I plan to use that setup to do
the delta T measurements. I do plan on taking a 16 channel data logger
and digital oscilloscope (both battery powered) to check the input
energy in ALL the wires going into the E-Cat.
From what I have read here, the 2 temp probes should be inserted
through the wall of the water hose feeding the heat exchanges enough so
they are approx central to the water flow, while not touching the inside
wall of the water hose and likewise for the outlet water hose. Is a 45
deg insertion angle acceptable?
AG
Re: [Vo]:Help in testing a E-Cat
Aussie Guy E-Cat
Sun, 20 Nov 2011 04:20:55 -0800
A working and reliable product with back-up and support is everything. I'm a Black Box kind of guy who has been a engineer long enough to know that both devices are very early stage work in progress. I don't expect to see what I would see if I visited ABB or GE. Have opened up a channel to Defkalion.
This could be a good match with a diathermic oil based LENR heat generator: http://www.ge-energy.com/products_and_services/services/oil_and_gas_services/oregen.jsp
AG
On 11/20/2011 10:26 PM, Peter Heckert wrote:
Am 20.11.2011 09:47, schrieb Aussie Guy E-Cat:
Amazing statements. Again with no basis in fact. Just more straw man totally negative spin stuff. I've been a power system engineer for probably longer than you have been alive. I do know how to construct a test of the E-Cat. I have also been used by several patent attorneys and investor groups around Australia to devise tests for OU devices, which I should add the inventors never agreed to.
What information I can share as I move through the process I will share. However that is not the intent of the process. My intent is to make money from the E-Cat.
Bottom of Form
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg56145.html
The Cold Fusion Ping List
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles
-------------------------------------------------------------- http://ecatnews.com/?p=1144
Unfortunately, if Rossi did the following:
1) hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps,
2) created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos,
3) bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos
4) arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real,
5) got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field,
6) got Bushnell to make a fool of himself,
7) and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum ----- or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow,
8) sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; ----- certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device ----- and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan
9) and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion ----- to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, ----- to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam
[the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars ----- until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table ----- because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes ----- and knows that they will just take his word for it ----- and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) ]
10) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out
then, yes, all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses.
http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-refuses-new-test-offer-confirms-first-customer-as-military-agency-which-has-ordered-13-more-units/
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-
The Cold Fusion Ping List
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles
Note that the Vortex member’s motivation is to make money.
“FREE ENERGY - FREE POWER FOR YOUR HOME, GARAGE, CAR OR TRUCK!
These type of motors have been seen and demonstrated on the Johnny Carson TV show as well as
many news and radio shows all across the country in the early 1970’s and 1980’s
FREE POWER / FREE ELECTRICITY 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week!”
Note that the Vortex member’s motivation is to make money.Note that Rossi turned him down. I guess he has bigger
Still waiting for:
Unfortunately, if Rossi did the following:They're called "Shills" and they are a typical part of any big scam. Notice that after almost a month, there is still no evidence at all that Rossi's mysterious "NATO Colenel" actually exists.
1) hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps,
2) created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos,Again, not at all unusual for a big scam. STEORN has been doing this for over a decade. TILLEY and PRIEST kept their scams going for more than five years each.
3) bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos
Scientists are often the easiest to fool. They assume that everyone involved is telling the truth. They assume that any falsehoods will be uncovered when the experiments are replicated by independent researchers. Unfortunately, Rossi won't allow that, so all they have is Rossi's word.
Notice that Rossi refuses to share, even with his associates listed above, how the E-Cat works, how it is made and what nuclear reactions may or may not be occurring within. Levi wrote a paper where he speculated about what might be going on, but his paper doesn't match what little actual evidence Rossi has produced.
4) arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real,Whether "cold fusion" really exists is an entirely separate issue from whether or not Rossi is a con artist. They both could be true. After all, the fact that electric cars are real didn't prevent TILLEY from creating an elaborate, multi-year fraud around his phoney electric car.
5) got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field,
6) got Bushnell to make a fool of himself,
SPAWAR has denied that they had, or were considering purchasing an E-Cat [LINK]
There isn't any actual evidence that either The Defense Threat Reduction Agency or The Defense Intelligence Agency have had anything to do with Rossi. Both are nothing more than rumors spread by Rossi's partner, Sterling D. Allan.
7) and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum ----- or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow,Note that both Defkalion and AmpEnergo were created specifically to hype Rossi's claims. Also note that you can't show any evidence AmpErengo has actually paid Rossi anything.
8) sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; ----- certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device ----- and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan
9) and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion ----- to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, ----- to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam
[the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars ----- until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table ----- because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes ----- and knows that they will just take his word for it ----- and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) ]There is no evidence that there was a "genuine" customer at the October 28th dog & pony show. There is no evidence that the mysterious "NATO Colonel" who supposedly ran the test for the "secret customer" actually exists. In spite of the massive amount of research being done on this story, no one has found even one reference to this man other than Rossi's claim. It's incredible that a NATO Colonel and professional engineer wouldn't leave any trace of himself anywhere. No professional organizations, no newpaper stories about his being promoted in NATO, no nothing.
10) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him outRossi has tightly controlled every aspect of the dog & pony shows he has performed. Your friend, Jed Rothwell, turned down an invitation to attend a Rossi performance because Rossi wouldn't allow him to bring his own test equipment.
then, yes, all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses.No one has ever accused Rossi of being an idiot. There's no question that he's very smart. The question is whether he's used his intelligence to create a wonderful new invention, or just a new variation on the typical con job.
The explanation of how the E-Sat works sounds similar this: EntabulatorWow! It all makes sense now!
Seriously, your proposal that Defkalion (not to mention Ampenergo) is simply a front organization operating at Rossi's behest suggests Rossi has some huge resources backing him. Now Defkalion says they have their own, improved E-cat device, and they appear to be operating in competition with him. That's quite a conspiracy theory now. It raises the question of who would have the funding necessary to put together this degree of an operation. I doubt Rossi has those kind of resources simply from selling his house!
Seriously, your proposal that Defkalion (not to mention Ampenergo) is simply a front organization operating at Rossi's behest suggests Rossi has some huge resources backing himI'm not aware that there is any "huge resources" behind either Defkalion or AmpEnergo. Their web sites certainly don't give any such information. The Defkalion site looks nice, but doesn't have any concrete information. The AmpEnergo site is a joke. (I spent too much time over the weekend trying to track down any useful information about any of the companies associated with Rossi, and couldn't find any.)
If you have any actual information about these companies (other than rumor-mongering by Sterling D. Allan, who is Rossi's shill) I would love to see it.
FYI, you missed commenting on this thread about Defkalion. For that matter so did the rest of the E-cat bashing crowd.I did see it, but muawiyah had already turned it into his own wacky theory thread (North Korean Weak-Force bombs and such), so I didn't bother to post there. If you want me to, I'd be happy to do so.
We'll see if Defkalion actually produces a working device. Rossi so far has failed to provide any independent verification of any of his claims. So far, neither has Defkalion.
As soon as either one provides a device to an independent, credible (i.e. no "secret customer") organization, and that organization announces that they have tested the device and found that it does produce more energy than it consumes, I'll reevaluate.
Any excess energy would be very interesting news, but since both Rossi and Defkalion are claiming to be producing massive amounts of excess energy (enough to make it worth using these in industrial, commercial and residential areas), I'll expect to see that before I'm convinced that there is no fraud going on.
Until then, I'm skeptical.
I’m currently just standing down and waiting for an independent customer to come forward with a product review.
Defkalion was created to sell Rossi's E-Cat. They say so themselves HERE. They have apparently removed the more obvious references to this from the web pages linked from their home page.
Over the weekend, I looked up the business record for the NH AmpEnergo, and found that they were created in April, 2011, which certainly suggests that they could have been created specifically for Rossi, since that was in the middle of Rossi's "publicity tour". Right now the NH web site to look up businesses is down, so I can't point you to the original record at the moment.
However, I did find THIS link, with the information at the bottom of the page. It shows AmpEnergo's New Hampshire address as:
116-G South River Road
Bedford NH 03110
According to THIS link, Rossi's Leonardo Corporation address is:
116 South River Road
Bedford, N.H. 03110
Looks like they have a pretty intimate relationship.
That's all I know about these businesses. If you have more information, please share!
Oh, I should have clarified what I meant. Of course Defkalion and AmpEnergo are created as a result of the E-cat. But if this is a scam someone has to be footing the bill for them while waiting for a payoff to make it all worthwhile.
As you mention, there may not be as much to them as one might assume. It depends on whether we can take anything at face value. For example, when Defkalion had an open forum a Defkalion rep said that 4 employees were taking turns fielding questions on the forum. And the photos from their lab show a normally equipped industrial lab comparable to what I’d expect.
This could all be a front. It’s conceivable there is one feverish associate of Rossi (or even Rossi himself) hammering out emails and posts on the Defkalion front, and photoshopping pics of the Hyperion in photos of a lab that doesn’t belong to him, and so on. Personally I wouldn’t take it that far. I suspect the ‘4 employees’ comment was an honest and candid one, and they represent only a fraction of their workforce. Likewise I suspect the lab photos are real enough. I don’t have proof. But if I’m right it does suggest someone with millions of $$ to invest is backing this, or multiple someones. I don’t think Rossi personally has those resources.
I should add that the Defkalion press conference a while back showed several people associated with the company. I suppose that they could all be hired actors or something, but they’d have to know they were involved in a fraud. So I’m skeptical that such a stunt could be pulled off (and then repeated in subsequent videos and so forth) without something coming unglued sordid details start coming out.
Google Maps list 28 different companies at the "116 South River Road" address. Neither AmpEnergo nor Leonardo are listed.
However, HERE is a "NAI Global", a commercial real estate company, with the same address and the same phone number as the earlier post listed for Rossi's Leonardo company. The business manager is listed as Karl Norwood, the same name as the founder of AmpEnergo.
I'm not sure what to make of this, other than they have a very close relationship, for longer than any public knowledge of their relationship.
Later: I just discovered that "EON" which is the company that Rossi supposedly SOLD to pay for his E-Cat development, is also an unlisted tenant of "116 South River Road, Bedford NH" using the same phone number as all the others.
A quick review of the other tenants of the address shows that none of them are using the same phone number, so that number is not a common number for the building.
What a tangled web!
Sure, I'll believe that.
HERE is a great example of just how sophisticated and involved a "long con" can be.
If Rossi is a con artist, he is nowhere near the most elaborate or sophisticated.
I'll leave it to the prosecutor and jury to figure out.
So a military customer gets only a single test of the ecat, in which it performs below 50% specification with a big generator hooked up to it.Based on the discussions on the Vortex, there's no particular reason to believe that the "MegaWatt" E-Cat generated any more than 70KW (7%) of the stated capacity.
That's based entirely on the data supplied by Rossi and his mysterious "NATO Colonel", with the assumption that they only boiled a trivial amount of the water in the system. There is no evidence that they really boiled all, or even most of the water. That's based entirely on Rossi's unsubstantiated claims (as has been true for all of his previous dog & pony shows).
Key difference: this link speaks of a financial scam. You can drag that out 'forever' because there is no physical product. Whereas Rossi at some point has to either get an investor to send him $$, or a buyer to do the same.
Of the two, scamming investors definitely makes more sense to me. The buyer is going to expect a product, and for the kind of large-scale devices we are talking about here at $2 million apiece, any real buyers are going to be sophisticated enough to judge whether they are getting net output (and how much) from an E-cat.
Yet things seem to be proceeding full-steam, with no calls from Rossi for investors. And if we are to believe them, they say buyers are to put funds in escrow until satisfied. (Even if they did not, it would only take a real buyer or two before the fraud was discovered and everything blew up).
So far the E-cat bashers have pointed, validly, to a lot of disappointing demonstrations and so forth as evidence for fraud. But I also recall many saying there would be no 1 MW unit, and that came to fruition. So what is Rossi's real game? Those of you saying the E-cat is a fraud are not giving any serious explanations as to how this fraud is supposed to be working. Linking to other frauds that have clear and important dissimilarities to the E-cat is no help.
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