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How to deal with the likes of Stalin/Putin - brief lesson from WWII
01/03/2012 | WesternCulture

Posted on 01/03/2012 5:41:30 AM PST by WesternCulture

Edited on 01/03/2012 6:47:15 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator. [history]

In Russia, many unaware people dream of a new era of expansion.

It won't happen.

Stalin is gone. Capitalism is not.

Russia is far more inferior by technological and overall societal standards than most Russians are willing to realize.

The Soviet Union of the late 1930's and early 1940's were ridiculed in combat by "tiny" Finland.  

The reasons the brainwashed Soviets managed to invade lunatic Nazi Germany were:

- Allied bombings

- The war on three fronts that Germany faced (counting Northern Africa)

- The internal chaos of the Wehrmacht 

The Soviet Union never has been a well organized part of the World. If it ever had been, East Germany would have been prosperous when it united with West Germany. But it was not.

In 1991, my father got to know a family in former DDR through work. They were well educated but lived in a small, poorly built apartment and didn't even own a car. Ten years after the reunion of Germany, they owned a very nice, well built house and when our family came to visit them, they drove up in front of the railway station, picking us up in brand new Volvos of the kind we drive here in Sweden!

I believe in Capitalism and in Nationalism. I've seen what it could do. I've witnessed what the opposite is unable of doing..

The future of Europe and Russia as well is Christianity and Capitalism, or there will be no future.


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: finland; winterwar; ww2; wwii

1 posted on 01/03/2012 5:41:41 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture

I agree with everything you say, but how does that tell us exactly how to deal with Putin (your title)??


2 posted on 01/03/2012 5:46:11 AM PST by PGR88 (Sic transit gloria mundi)
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To: WesternCulture
Like to make an adjustment to the "weak Finland" comment ~ the Swedes built enough artillery pieces to supply the Finns with most of what they needed to stop any sized infantry army.

The technique was later used by the United States on the Western front ~ friend of mine who'd been in the Germany Army as a 15 year old said you had to see it to believe it. From his vantage point in the bottom of a ditch he said the Americans had as many artillery pieces as the Germans had rifles.

The Finns also had the advantage of playing on the home ground, properly dressed, equipped with skis, and later on there were as many as 180,000 German troops on hand (doing lord only knows what).

As part of the "terms" for the cease fire Stalin demanded half of Finland ~ which he got ~ and he wanted the Germans kicked out of Finland ~ which he also got. They were booted North to enter Norway in the Winter .

Still, after defeating both Russia and Germany, Finland survived.

It took the Allies another 50 years to accomplish both tasks!

3 posted on 01/03/2012 5:52:16 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: WesternCulture

Finland vs. the Soviet Union:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLvhyfpSwEM

As war between the Soviet Union and Finland broke out, Sweden changed its diplomatic status from “neutral” to “non belligerent” and started supplying Finland with goods including weapons.

In sheer economical terms, the value of these shipments estimated to around half of Finland’s GDP or more on an annual basis.


4 posted on 01/03/2012 5:55:42 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: PGR88

“I agree with everything you say, but how does that tell us exactly how to deal with Putin (your title)??”

- Sorry for not being that very clear perhaps.

Either you tell them to give up on Socialism like most people already have done in former DDR and other parts of Eastern Europe, or you send in the Finns.


5 posted on 01/03/2012 6:10:15 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture

The Allied supply line to the Soviets (via Murmansk) also played a role.

My own experience with the Russians (from my own family no less): every Russian is part drama queen. If you understand that, a lot of things make sense. On the other hand, they are an extremely tough people when they need to be. Its an interesting combination.


6 posted on 01/03/2012 6:10:49 AM PST by rbg81
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To: rbg81

Thanks for the insight. My own feeling is that Russia will re-emerge under Putin while the US continues to evanesce under Obama — largely because Putin has two qualities the US president does not: Putin is a strong leader and he believes in the greatness of his own country.


7 posted on 01/03/2012 6:16:15 AM PST by hampdenkid
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To: rbg81

Really, there’s nothing much wrong with the Russians.

Basically.

The thing that really bothers me is their leaders.

Most Russians are good natured folks who’ve been exploited tricked and led astray throughout most of history.

We Swedes have a special relation to the people living in Russia and the Ukraine.

Swedish Vikings once were welcomed to this part of the World to build functioning societal structures.

A quote from the so called “The Primary Chronicle”:

“Our country is large and has everything in abundance except that we lack order and justice; come take possession and govern us.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle


8 posted on 01/03/2012 6:22:11 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: rbg81

Murmansk was decisive, and for decades since, revisionists of many stripes have tried to keep that fact buried.

The Russians would not have been able to launch the massive counter-offensive against the Axis had it been otherwise.

Thank you, too, for your observation.


9 posted on 01/03/2012 6:29:09 AM PST by Stalwart
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To: muawiyah

Thanks for pointing this out.

The major reason to Finland’s defeat of the Soviets in that war was them being a well prepared, patriotic, well organized nation.

Swedish support played a role, but their victory truly belongs to them and no one else.


10 posted on 01/03/2012 6:29:33 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture
Either you tell them to give up on Socialism like most people already have done in former DDR and other parts of Eastern Europe, or you send in the Finns.

Well, since they may not listen to mere words I guess what is left to do is to send in the Finns, right? So, when does the Finnish assault on Russia commence? Lol. I respect you WC, but every now and then you post funny stuff (like one of a Swedish submarine taking out St Petersburg, or another asking what would happen if Russia nuked London, Paris and Stockholm ...if Moscow nuked London and Paris it wouldn't matter if it nuked Stockholm or Timbuktu). Anyways, the Finns don't have the military to invade Sweden let alone Russia, and the only defense against Russian nukes for countries like Finland and Sweden still remains Uncle Sam. As for the dictator Putin - the growing resentment in Russia (which has been eroding his popularity), as well as the continued rise of the church, shows that the grasp of communism and evil in Russia is hopefuy getting blunted. But any rescue or destruction of Russia is completely out of the grasp of Sweden and Finland.

11 posted on 01/03/2012 6:32:59 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: WesternCulture
Either you tell them to give up on Socialism like most people already have done in former DDR and other parts of Eastern Europe, or you send in the Finns.

Well, since they may not listen to mere words I guess what is left to do is to send in the Finns, right? So, when does the Finnish assault on Russia commence? Lol. I respect you WC, but every now and then you post funny stuff (like one of a Swedish submarine taking out St Petersburg, or another asking what would happen if Russia nuked London, Paris and Stockholm ...if Moscow nuked London and Paris it wouldn't matter if it nuked Stockholm or Timbuktu). Anyways, the Finns don't have the military to invade Sweden let alone Russia, and the only defense against Russian nukes for countries like Finland and Sweden still remains Uncle Sam. As for the dictator Putin - the growing resentment in Russia (which has been eroding his popularity), as well as the continued rise of the church, shows that the grasp of communism and evil in Russia is hopefuy getting blunted. But any rescue or destruction of Russia is completely out of the grasp of Sweden and Finland.

12 posted on 01/03/2012 6:33:32 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: WesternCulture
And one whale of a lot of artillery pieces.

Frankly no one saw that coming ~ Russian thought at the time was more toward small rockets, and the Germans thought tank supported infantry was still the big item.

Boy were those guys wrong.

13 posted on 01/03/2012 6:35:09 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: rbg81

Seen that one too!

One minute crying like a baby over a percieved slight, then next working six fourteen hour shifts in a row for weeks on end.

Crazy.


14 posted on 01/03/2012 6:35:31 AM PST by Keith Brown (Among the other evils being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised Machiavelli.)
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To: spetznaz
I respect you too, if I fail to express respect for the Russians as a people, I hereby apologize.

The source of my irritation is the kind of Russians who fail to believe in what blessings close cooperation between Russia, Western European nations and America could provide.

Anyhow;

You know damn well you lost a war against the Finns.

You also know Russia was the real loser of the Great Nordic War.

Trade patterns had already changed much in the Baltics before Denmark, Poland, Lithuania and Russia declared war on Charles XII. Crushing Sweden was not your solution.

This is one of the biggest mistakes Russia ever has made throughout history.

Russia defeated Sweden at Poltava, yes, but instead of creating an alliance of trust and trade, you were left with nothing but scorched earth and emperor's new clothes.

15 posted on 01/03/2012 6:57:58 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture
I am not Russian - I unfortunately share a common trait with Obama (I am Kenyan, but unlike him I do not try and hide my birth certificate LOL). The reason I use 'Spetznaz' stems from my angst at Islamic terrorism around the time I joined FR, and I had just read how the Spetsnaz handled some Islamic chaps who had abducted some Soviet citizens in Lebanon ...te Spetsnaz kidnapped (allegedly) the families of the Islamic terrorists, chopped off some heads and stuffed gonads into the mouths, and sent the 'package' to the terrorists with a promise of similar action unless the hostages were released - which they were. Hence my name choice - it could just have easily been Vlad Tepes (due to him being a bastion against Islamic expanionism centuries before). It is not becaUse I am Russian or love Russia.

As for the Finns vs the Russians - yep, the Finns showed the world that they could fight (the sent the Russians a veritable 'butchers bill'), and the Swedes have a martial history that should definitely be respected. No argument at all there from me.

My point on this thread stemmed out if logic. The Finns (and/or Swedes) simply cannot take on the Russians today. The Russian military is a shadow of what it was during the Cold war, and even during the Cold war the Soviets relied on a lot of smoke and mirrors, but they are still beyond the Finns and Swedes. That is not disrespect against Sweden by the way - you, sir, have a lot to be proud about. Sweden is a great country with a rich history (talking to you over time led me to dredge up info in Sweden, and you have a lot to be proud of), but a Gotland would do anything to St Petersburg apart from destroy a couple of buildings, while ONE Borei could destroy all of Stockholm with ONE missile.

16 posted on 01/03/2012 7:16:25 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

“I am not Russian”

- You are, more or less.

“The Finns (and/or Swedes) simply cannot take on the Russians today”.

- Not instantly perhaps, but given no time for preparations at all, the French probably couldn’t take Luxemburg.

If we Swedes could manage to defend our air territory (which we probably could do), we could use our automotive plants to manufacture tanks at a rate you couldn’t even imagine.

Today, the largest automotive plant in Scandinavia, the main plant of Volvo Cars, has a daily capacity of around 600-800 vehicles. This is just one single plant in one city.

Russia is not able of building 800 decent tanks a day given one year of preparations.

Question is if Russia could educate 800 tank drivers in one year.


17 posted on 01/03/2012 7:50:04 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture

Most Russians are good natured folks who’ve been exploited tricked and led astray throughout most of history.


If you haven’t already, read Dostoyevsky’s “Notes from Underground”. Very illuminating about the Russian character.


18 posted on 01/03/2012 8:46:42 AM PST by rbg81
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To: rbg81

“If you haven’t already, read Dostoyevsky’s “Notes from Underground”. Very illuminating about the Russian character.”

- I have read like 50% of what he has written, but so far I’ve not dealt with that title.

Sincere thanks for reminding me I should!


19 posted on 01/03/2012 9:13:24 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture
The major reason to Finland’s defeat of the Soviets in that war was them being a well prepared, patriotic, well organized nation.

It's hard to make a very good argument that the Finns defeated the Soviets in the Winter War. They put up a good show against long odds, caused the Soviets an embarrassing number of casualties and showed the Germans how hollow the Russian military leadership was after Stalin's purges, but at the end of three and a half months of fighting, the Finns signed a peace treaty that gave 15% of their territory and 30% of their economic resources to the USSR. Pretty feeble kind of victory.

20 posted on 01/03/2012 9:27:19 AM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

I view it this way;

Stalin tried to make Finland a part of the Soviet Union.

He failed.

This equals Finnish success in a struggle between Mannerheim and Stalin.

The Russians backed off and gave up. I interpret this as a decisive Finnish victory.

What do you wish to call it?


21 posted on 01/03/2012 9:46:15 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture
Dear WC, I honestly couldn't care less where you think I hail from. If adding some logic into some (not all, just some) of your threads makes me Russian or Klingon or the Lobster Man from Mars simply raises queries on YOUR ability to be lucid.

Some of the threads you have brought up in the past have been absolutely ludicrous (one can search for the one where you said a single Gotland submarine can take out the city of St Petersburg; or the classic thread that made many laugh where you raised a scenario asking what would happen if Moscow nuked London, Paris and STOCKHOLM!!!! I was not the only one questioning your sanity on that thread).

Ok, so a Gotland DE submarine has torpedos (totally useless against buildings) and, optionally, naval mines (also useless against buildings) and Conventional cruise missiles (which can damage a couple of buildings). Russia has a number of SSBNs (each armed with a dozen or more nuclear SLBMs that can take out multiple cities half a world away), SSGNs (armed with nuclear tipped Granit cruise missiles with a range of 3,000kms), and SSNs (that can pack shorter ranged cruise missiles). Any ONE of the SSGNs (for instance) is able to absolutely devastate Sweden. Any one of the SSBNs and they wouldn't have to use more than one SLBM if they opt for one that has MIRVs. Sweden has a history of facing up to stronger countries and winning, andas I said you have an amazing history and are a proud people. However, the moment the Soviets went nuclear decades ago the only hope of the Swedes against them was NATO, and specifically the United States of America. The current Russia, in a real war not some silly skirmish like the Georgia debacle, can do more against Stockholm with one submarine than Sweden can against St Petersburg with a Gotland. That is common sense. If that makes me a motley-speckled nightingale then so be it. It doesn't change the fact though that Sweden versus Russia in a fullscale war is as silly as Uganda versus the US.

As for what can be done against Putin - I have faith that the rise of freedom loving Russians and the rise of the church will have a mark (and already is). Furthermore their demographics are not exactly promising, and if they don't watch out they will have the Chinese as a far greater threat than Sweden ever could be ...and anyways Sweden is facing it's own demographic threat, this time with a Muslim tint).

22 posted on 01/03/2012 10:43:12 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

“I have faith that the rise of freedom loving Russians and the rise of the church will have a mark.”

- Let’s both agree to hope so.

Greetings to a spetznaz from a country of kustjägare (although I, admittedly, never served as one)!


23 posted on 01/03/2012 11:01:32 AM PST by WesternCulture
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24 posted on 01/03/2012 12:08:16 PM PST by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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To: WesternCulture
I interpret this as a decisive Finnish victory.

Like I said, a victory in which you give up 15% of your territory, including your second-largest city, 30% of your industrial capacity, a third of your hydroelectric capacity, 75 locomotives, 2000 rails cars, render over 100,000 refugees from the lands handed over as refugees and are forced to lease other bases to your enemy seems an odd kind of "decisive victory."

What do you wish to call it?

A negotiated surrender with something better than unconditional terms.

The fact is that after their initial humiliations, the Soviets reorganized and reinforced their forces. They began punching holes in the Mannerheim line. The Finns, running out of men and ammunition, saw the writing on the wall and asked for terms. And while the Soviets made noise about conquering all of Finland, what they settled for was more than what they'd been demanding during the October, 1939 negotiations, terms the Finns rejected at that time. So if you want spin that conceding to terms more harsh than those you'd rejected four months earlier constitutes a decisive victory, be my guest.

25 posted on 01/03/2012 2:41:23 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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