Once Again I will Posit Adoption for Barack Obama.

Various | 3/1/2012 | DiogenesLamp

[lonestar]

The smartest person in the entire mix is Barack Sr.

He split!! probably thinking, "Those White people are crazy!"

[UCANSEE2]

Still “too young to know that I needed a race,” as he describes himself in Dreams, Obama was sent back from Indonesia in 1969 or ’70. Gramps Stanley Dunham began a bizarre project which involved introducing Obama to Frank Marshall Davis and making secret visits to Chinatown’s disreputable Smith Street bars – located one block away from Oka’s Corner Liquor Store. Obama describes the “excitement” of these visits in Dreams, page 77-78:

“Don’t tell your grandmother,” he would say with a wink, and we’d walk past hard-faced, soft-bodied streetwalkers into a small, dark bar with a jukebox and a couple of pool tables. Nobody seemed to mind that Gramps was the only white man in the place, or that I was the only eleven-or twelve year old. Some of the men leaning across the bar would wave at us, and the bartender, a big, light skinned woman with bare, fleshy arms, would bring a Scotch for Gramps and a Coke for me. If nobody else was playing at the tables, Gramps would spot me a few balls and teach me the game, but usually I would sit at the bar, my legs dangling from the high stool, blowing bubbles into my drink and looking at the pornographic art on the walls — the phosphorescent women on animal skins, the Disney characters in compromising positions. If he was around, a man named Rodney with a wide-brimmed hat would stop by to say hello. …”

Frank Marshall Davis too, described adventures on Smith Street at “The Green Goose,” a bar “operated by one of my friends.” Group sex and voyeurism at the Green Goose fill two pages in his pseudonymous porno book, Sex Rebel: Black (Memoirs of a Gash Gourmet), published just before Obama returned from Indonesia.

[UCANSEE2]

If the child was the progeny of grandpa and a hooker, and he wanted to ‘adopt’ the child, what better way than to have your daughter appear in Hawaii with a new ‘grandchild’ who is then left with the grandparents to raise? A granddaughter who had a meaningless ‘convenience’ marriage (to a man that was already married ) to give the child a legal ‘father’ ???

[UCANSEE2]

I'm not ready to go so far as to say that Hawaiian officials are corrupt

When I was a teenager I went there, and it was well known by the locals (I had friends who lived there) that Hawaii was completely controlled by the organized crime syndicate.

As usually follows, the crime syndicate becomes the 'government'.

[UCANSEE2]

Back then unmarried pregnant girls were sent away before they began to "show." And they didn't have many cameras in Kenya.

So one would assume your answer is 'no'.

[UCANSEE2]

No, but that doesn't prove anything.

True. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

However, if there was just one picture, that would be good evidence. Yet none is to be seen.

You would think that the proud grandparents would have taken at least one picture of her pregnant. Wasn't she supposed to be pregnant when she got married? Where is that picture?

[SvenMagnussen]

Anyone of any age can move out of the US, renounce their US citizenship, and naturalize with a foreign state. Proof is available by examining Barry Soetoro’s school record ... Indonesian National born in Hawaii.

[SvenMagnussen]

Anyone of any age can move out of the US, renounce their US citizenship, and naturalize with a foreign state. Proof is available by examining Barry Soetoro’s school record ... Indonesian National born in Hawaii.

[UCANSEE2]

You are a newbie TROLL who seeks only to further muddy the waters of the issue

Gee whiz. It seems everyone's a troll anymore. Even me.

[DiogenesLamp]

FWIW, at 6:48 PM - 27 Apr 11, Savannah Guthrie, of NBC, tweeted, "I saw the certified copy of long-form POTUS birth certificate today, felt the raised seal, snapped this pic http://plixi.com/p/96540721".

Then, of course, there is that correspondence the White House revealed in which Judith Corley gets the HDoH to make and release the two certified copies, which she allegedly flew to Honolulu to pick up and hand-carry back to the WH. That could all be fake, of course, and, if so, it would be a sadistic pleasure to see Judy Corley's law license yanked for abetting a fraud. But, again, don't hold your breath!

Yes, I was aware that they had physical copies. (Albeit without the green anti-copy paper.) *I* have a physical copy as well. Two of them. They say different things. One of them is the truth, the other is what the state currently says is the truth.

If they can create a forgery for me, they can certainly do it for him. And certify it too!

[DiogenesLamp]

The smartest person in the entire mix is Barack Sr.

He split!! probably thinking, "Those White people are crazy!"

:)

[DiogenesLamp]

If the child was the progeny of grandpa and a hooker, and he wanted to ‘adopt’ the child, what better way than to have your daughter appear in Hawaii with a new ‘grandchild’ who is then left with the grandparents to raise? A granddaughter who had a meaningless ‘convenience’ marriage (to a man that was already married ) to give the child a legal ‘father’ ???

This theory violates the premise of Occam's Razor in my opinion. Why needlessly complicate what is already complicated? (Unless there is compelling evidence to do so.)

[DiogenesLamp]

When I was a teenager I went there, and it was well known by the locals (I had friends who lived there) that Hawaii was completely controlled by the organized crime syndicate.

I have read other articles discussing corruption in Hawaii. Specifically, the use of that state to create fake birth certificates for foreign nationals. I don't know how much credibility I should give the stories but i'm keeping them in the back of my mind.

As usually follows, the crime syndicate becomes the 'government'.

Government and crime syndicate appear to always be opposite sides of the same coin. Throughout History, government always started with the bad-ass of the tribe taking everyone else's stuff. This is the guy who became King, and the same basic methodology has continued ever since.

[DiogenesLamp]

True. Lack of evidence is not evidence.

However, if there was just one picture, that would be good evidence. Yet none is to be seen.

You would think that the proud grandparents would have taken at least one picture of her pregnant. Wasn't she supposed to be pregnant when she got married? Where is that picture?

As far as I know, there are no pictures of my mother when she was pregnant, and she had 5 of us. I have no pictures of my wife when SHE was pregnant. My family has never been much for photography. I just don't see it as being very indicative of anything.

[DiogenesLamp]

Gee whiz. It seems everyone's a troll anymore. Even me.

:)

[Apollo5600]

[quote]This question has come up before. I think they have both. I think the “physical document” is a print out of that PDF file from the DOH in Hawaii. I would point out that very few people have actually SEEN the physical version of the document, and when it was shown that one time, Obama’s attorney guarded it like it was the Crown Jewels of England.[/quote]

Whatever the case, this does not fit with what the White House claimed they were releasing at the time. They claimed it was a scan of a document they received from Hawaii. In reality, the copy released over the internet was a purely digital creation. It could not have been a print that was scanned. The “evidence” that was provided to the American people, and was represented as proof and a valid copy of a physical birth certificate, was, in fact, nothing of the sort.

[DiogenesLamp]

I agree.

[x]

Stanley Ann may not have had to DO anything. I have read quite a bit from others on this subject. It is my current understanding that Under 1960s Indonesian law, a child is AUTOMATICALLY adopted if he is under the age of five when his mother Marries an Indonesian citizen. (Here is the law in effect at that time.) The only requirement is that the father must identify the child as his in front of a government official who comes to the house.

But that doesn't sound like something our government would recognize. In fact, your "adoption" of Barack sounds a lot like my "non-adoption." How likely is it that something like this would have gotten back to the State Department or the Hawaiian Department of Health and meant a change in his passport or birth certificate. From what we know, it's not at all clear that such an "adoption" or "non-adoption" would have meant any change at all in Obama's citizenship.

In fact, it probably wouldn't have. I'm not sure about the exact law at the time, but nowadays the child (if he had reached the right age) would have had to swear before a US official that he was abandoning his citizenship, and I'd be willing to bet that never happened (though we won't know for years if it did or if it didn't). If you want to argue that Obama was adopted and this changed his passport or his citizenship or his birth certificate, a very informal or irregular "adoption" makes your case weaker than a more correct and formal adoption would.

SHE may not have been much for paperwork, but Bank Vice President Madelyn Dunham lived by it. I have little doubt she sought legal advice for what to do.

One problem with all the theorizing is that people have an ability to compartmentalize their lives. The woman who's a tiger about paperwork at work, may not want forms and red-tape cluttering up her relationships with her children and grandchildren. I can't say for sure what if anything happened, but I suspect the laxity of the two Stanleys and Madeline's maternal feelings could have outweighed any desire to formalize or legalize their guardianship through adoption. As I've said, though, it would have been possible to become the child's guardians without going so far as to adopt him.

It makes sense that his financier for the trip (and the Hotel Room where he stayed) was Madelyn Dunham, Vice President of the Bank. If this is the case, then his presence must have been necessary for some reason, and I can only assume it was to sign legal documents and affirm before a Judge.

That's possible, but as I've said, we want to make other people far simpler than they are in fact, especially if we don't like them. That's part of what I meant by "compartmentalization": a bank VP isn't always a bank VP in all her interactions and relationships. It's not impossible that family troubles and uncertainties got to the point where they felt -- however silly it might have looked later on -- that Barack Sr would have been a positive influence on Barack II.

But one thing you might already know: the Soetoros did adopt Lia, an Indonesian girl. If they legally and formally adopted Lia it might lend support to your theory. But once again, it's something we won't know about for years to come, if even then.

[little jeremiah]

Here it is, sorry it took me so long to reply. Until I read the entire thread, I still thought that Stanley Ann was his mother but likely another man the father. The evidence presented on this thread plus a few more things convinced me that he is not the child of either purpoerted parent.

The truth about the usurper in the WH is totally different from the propaganda.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2702976/posts

[DiogenesLamp]

But that doesn't sound like something our government would recognize. In fact, your "adoption" of Barack sounds a lot like my "non-adoption." How likely is it that something like this would have gotten back to the State Department or the Hawaiian Department of Health and meant a change in his passport or birth certificate.

This is a good question, and it depends on a lot of factors. My understanding is that Lolo married Ann in 1965, but didn't go back to Indonesia till later. If he married her in Hawaii, he may very well have adopted Barry in Hawaii. Would Ann have insisted on it? Again, it depends.

If Lolo didn't adopt him in Hawaii, would an Indonesian adoption be a problem for Barry? There's evidence that in 1968 it might have caused a little problem with Ann's Passport. My understanding is that this was when Barry was being taken off her passport and required to get one of his own.

From what we know, it's not at all clear that such an "adoption" or "non-adoption" would have meant any change at all in Obama's citizenship.

I'm not suggesting it changed his citizenship, i'm suggesting that it may have complicated his life by creating issues, questions, and confusion about it. It is my understanding that a guardian cannot revoke the citizenship of their children, and that the citizenship will always be available to be claimed at a later date. However, the Guardian can make a mess of their documentation by naturalizing them into another country.

One way to undo this mess may have been an adoption or legal guardianship.

In fact, it probably wouldn't have. I'm not sure about the exact law at the time, but nowadays the child (if he had reached the right age) would have had to swear before a US official that he was abandoning his citizenship, and I'd be willing to bet that never happened (though we won't know for years if it did or if it didn't). If you want to argue that Obama was adopted and this changed his passport or his citizenship or his birth certificate, a very informal or irregular "adoption" makes your case weaker than a more correct and formal adoption would.

For this issue, there is a probability tree with many branches. The strength or weakness of my adoption theory will depend on which branch was actually traversed. Right now, we are speculating based on what we CAN discover. There are several pieces of evidence to indicate that Barack Obama was actually adopted under Indonesian law. What the effects of this may be regarding American law are not readily apparent. There is a possibility that he was adopted under Hawaiian law, and if that is actually the case, then that WOULD have serious legal consequences for him.

*IF* Barack Sr. was flown to Hawaii for some legal purpose involving Barry, then it reinforces the notion that the Indonesian or Hawaiian adoption needed undoing.

One problem with all the theorizing is that people have an ability to compartmentalize their lives. The woman who's a tiger about paperwork at work, may not want forms and red-tape cluttering up her relationships with her children and grandchildren. I can't say for sure what if anything happened, but I suspect the laxity of the two Stanleys and Madeline's maternal feelings could have outweighed any desire to formalize or legalize their guardianship through adoption. As I've said, though, it would have been possible to become the child's guardians without going so far as to adopt him.

Others have pointed this out as well. Again, I regard this as a probability tree. Each subsequent piece tends to depend heavily on a previous not clearly known piece, and the divergent branches can have wildly different consequences. It may very well be that a legal guardianship may have been all that is necessary, but I think it is an odd coincidence that Stanley Ann and Barack Sr. just happened to be in Hawaii at the same time (both normally living thousands of miles away) and when they both left, Barry remained with his Grandparents thereafter.

Christmas 1971.

Here is a good source for details regarding this event.

But one thing you might already know: the Soetoros did adopt Lia, an Indonesian girl. If they legally and formally adopted Lia it might lend support to your theory. But once again, it's something we won't know about for years to come, if even then.

I think more will come out. I don't know if it will all come out, but it enough might. There are a lot of eyes looking at this issue.