Posted on 03/03/2012 7:02:42 AM PST by Erik Latranyi
This is a year old... http://www.wnd.com/2011/01/254401/
Do you know what the word "prejudice" means? It literally means "pre-judging." Judging something before any facts. It has been my observation that these officials never make any statements that are clear and unambiguous. Take that stamp on his birth certificate for example. It says it is either a copy of the original, or an ABSTRACT OF THE RECORD ON FILE.
Well I know for a fact that the "Record" can be changed after the fact, and so saying something might be an "abstract of the record on file" means that it will say whatever they put in there.
The Stamp on Birth certificates used to say "A TRUE AND CORRECT COPY OF THE ORIGINAL RECORD." No ambiguity. Clear and precise legal meaning.
Why don't we wait till someone in Hawaii can say something which cannot be construed as weasel words before we decide how "birthers" are going to react to it?
We wouldn't put up with equivocation from a witness, and that's what these people are supposed to be.
And Hawaiian law is pretty clear on BC’s for children not born there. They will get the new COLB and it will list the actual place of birth.
Among other things mentioned by the Sheriff's cold case posse is that they have discovered individuals who were NOT born in Hawaii, yet have Hawaiian birth certificates which says they were. They also mentioned that some of these individuals were willing to come forward and testify about the circumstances surrounding their birth.
If this is true, it becomes apparent that Hawaiian law is proof of nothing.
“Sheriff Joe needs to step up and conduct an official investigation.”
Yeah, but there’s no money in that.
I think letting people stew without a clear resolution is what is doing the harm. Had Obama popped out with his latest long form in July of 2008, it would have nipped the bulk of this issue in the bud.
The Fact that he gave everyone inquiring the finger, only stirred up the passions all the stronger. A man went to JAIL because the truth was ambiguous. As I mentioned at the time, NO DECENT President would leave his military officers GUESSING whether or not he was legitimate!
The destructiveness of this issue lies entirely at the feet of the man who didn't feel it was necessary to allay people's suspicions. (And also at the feet of those conservatives who demanded we trust that liar regarding this subject.)
And I would advise being skeptical of any evidence the Birther Dumpling Gang claims to have. There is a definite pattern here as well. Grandiose claims of a smoking gun that never, ever pan out.
I could not get a drivers license without a legitimate BC. We now have county Law enforcement officials telling the SOS that there is no BC for Soebarkah.
If the SOS should hold a press conference and explains why they need cooperation from the whitehouse, and put the screws to Obama.
Play good cop to Arpaio bad cop, "I need to prove Arpiao wrong, allow us to go to Hawaii and inspect the Microfilm and original document to end this. Without seeing the original and the microfilm, we must rely on our Sheriffs evidence and numerous sworn depositions that your BC is a forgery and keep you off the Ballot. Please, either cooperate and help us get you on the ballot or remove your name from the Arizona ballot. You choose."
I agree. This is a great tactic. Unfortunately I don't think any governmental official in this nation has the guts to do such a thing. Arizona almost passed a law requiring accurate proof, and Jan Brewer vetoed it because she didn't want "one person" (other than the Head of DOH in HAWAII!) deciding who is legitimate. I personally think she was more afraid of losing Federal Grants and being made fun of by the media than she was concerned about too much power in the hands of the Secretary of State.
I cannot believe that such a great country has fallen to the point where it can be pimp-slapped by a con artist. Public officials not only don't have any guts and determination, they don't even know what is their job!
Registered mail straight from Hawaii to Arizona with the WH out of the loop.
They won't give them out without Obama's permission, and he isn't giving it. He wouldn't even send a copy to his lawyer in Georgia.
But yeah, your idea would be a good thing to do if it were possible.
Nobody will touch anything which questions Obama's legitimacy. It's not because there isn't something fishy about it, it's because they are TERRIFIED of what the media will do to them. Being accused of being a Closet Racist is the FIRST thing they will have to deal with.
When two investigators are selling a book on the investigation, one investigator is a prominent birther who has written a birther book in the past, and the editor of a prominent birther website is using the posse for fund raising, only a fool would believe that the posse was fair and impartial.
You are referring to Jerome Corsi, who I understand is not Part of the Posse, but is instead a person who gave them information. The guy HEADING the posse is NOW writing a book after the fact of discovering various inconsistencies surrounding the issue. Impartiality is important PRIOR to the investigation, but after the evidence leads to the conclusion that people are lying, it is no longer reasonable to be impartial.
The SoS will not risk professional embarrassment by associating with the birther movement.
You mean he won't risk being made a mockery of by the News Media. Our society now expects people to be brow beaten into submission when they question the first "black" President.
You may be right about this, but it has to do more with fearing the propaganda barrage which will be unleashed against him than any confidence in Obama's truthfulness or that of his documents.
If you are going after the president on the United States, you need at a minimum an official criminal investigation conducted by sworn Arizona peace officers. Sheriff Joe needs to step up and conduct an official investigation.
If he isn't legitimate, he never was President. People should have had this discussion prior to the election instead of wasting 3 1/2 years to finally look at his papers.
You put all the blame on one side. You CANNOT parse the words:
"A TRUE AND CORRECT COPY OF THE ORIGINAL RECORD..."
They simply refuse to use such words.
And I would advise being skeptical of any evidence the Birther Dumpling Gang claims to have. There is a definite pattern here as well. Grandiose claims of a smoking gun that never, ever pan out.
You are right. Everyone said he was legitimate and a "natural born citizen" and yet all those Grandiose claims have been demonstrated to be ambiguous. We still do not know the answer yet. All we have are assertions.
But I trust law enforcement officials more so than the politicians, so i'm inclined to believe they have something if they say they have something.
Hawaii says that the LFBC is a “True copy or abstract of the record on file..” and you gripe because you want them to say something different. Yet we both know you wouldn't buy it for a minute if they said that. You'd simply move on to something else.
And when Birthers reject anything and everything that contradicts their worldview, yeah they are gonna think that the question is still open.
So down the track the crazy train goes.
I am tired of Obama apologists who are quick to ridicule others but cannot defend their position based on facts. Have you read 338-18 (d)? How does it prevent Abercrombie to resolve the “top priority issue” (his words) and shut the birthers down?
Hawaii DoH could open up their vault and show the original birth registration index today, if they wanted to do so. Abercrombie promised to release everything that is allowed according to the law - yet they keep this information hidden from public.
Anyhow, Hawaii has apparently learned the hard way that there is no benefit to trying to reason with conspiracy fanatics.
Without out an official investigation with sworn Arizona peace officers nothing will happen. It is simple as that.
Hawaii says that the LFBC is a “True copy or abstract of the record on file..” and you gripe because you want them to say something different.
I want them to be UNAMBIGUOUS. You might need to look the word up. Apparently you don't understand what it means. Hawaii used to use the words "A TRUE AND CORRECT COPY OF THE ORIGINAL RECORD". This is what you call CLEAR and DIRECT.
Yet we both know you wouldn't buy it for a minute if they said that. You'd simply move on to something else.
You know no such thing. It is my understanding that they can be held legally accountable for swearing to something false. If they certify a document as being a "TRUE AND CORRECT COPY OF THE ORIGINAL RECORD" they have no wiggle room. If it is later determined to be untrue (Supposing Obama passed away and the Record became available to the public) They could be held legally accountable for attesting to a false statement.
They use those wiggle words to PROTECT THEMSELVES from false swearing or attestation. I don't WANT them protected. I want them facing LEGAL PENALTIES for attesting to something which is NOT TRUE.
We simply cannot accept their word as proof as long as they are using ambiguous words. They are like O.J. Simpson with his "If I did it" book thesis.
Maybe not even then. Also, I wouldn't characterize anything about this issue as "simple."
You've already decided that things are thus and so, why should they make any effort to work with you when your stated purpose is to accuse them of further mischief?
“Sheriff Joe needs to step up and conduct an official investigation.”
El Sordo: “Yeah, but there’s no money in that.”
So Sordo, if you believe that everyone is motivated by money, who is paying you to post vitriol on all the birther threads?
I have no problem with those who legitimately differ in opinion and provide compelling argument against some of these theories. And I will grant you that there are some pretty far out theories flying around on the birther threads. But so many times I’ve noticed your response to be one of attack instead of legitimate skepticism.
In light of recent events where reputable experts in their field have proven those associatd with Obama have falsified documents, do you still believe there is nothing to investigate? That it is all manufactured “coincidence” and that Arpaio is chasing shadows in the wind?
What is your threshold of belief? What more evidence or what more would have to occur before you begin to see the deception of this administration (and specifically, Obama)?
The birther movement started as a seed back in 2008 on FR and seemed a bit far-fetched at the time. But it’s grown to become a knarled and twisted tale with many surprising discoveries. After four years of stonewalling and counter-attacks by this administration, how can you look at Obama with confidence and say, “This man has nothing to hide”? That all these birther revelations are merely political posturing and bias?
If you truly think this is all a pile of crap, please provide the evidence or proof that discredits the findings of Arpaio and the Posse. Please address the issues and stop attacking those who honestly work to find the truth.
And please, please, please explain to me exactly why Obama has yet to release legitimate proof of birth in Hawaii.
Lets start with “reputable experts”.
Lets examine how this “posse” came about:
1. A group of birthers went to Sheriff Joe with Corsi’s nonsense from the birther book he wrote.
2. Joe said “I am not willing to spend my time and money looking into this. If you want to do it for free, you can join my posse.”
3. So the birthers round up a group of “investigators” to look into it. Corsi is their main source of data.
4. In a shocking surprise they discover that Corsi was right all along and the BC was forged.
5. Big press conference is held.
6. Immediately following the press conference, the lead “investigator” Zullos announces that he and Corsi have an e-book for sale detailing the results of the investigation. Also Farrah (head birther) puts out fund raising requests for WND and the posse.
That is why no one believes them. They have no credibility. They had a financial incentive to come to a certain answer. They have a documented history that proves their bias.
The birthers were just boned by Sheriff Joe and they don’t even know it. He played it perfectly - pleased his core constituency while not doing anything of any legal consequence.
Sheriff Joe needs to announce an official criminal investigation. One that would be recognized by the Arizona legal system as valid and impartial.
What are you doing on this forum if we are conspiracy fanatics? You have no explanation/answer for my question: Which law prevents Abercrombie to fulfill his promise? He could release the original birth index yet refuses to do so. I asked you this question several times and you keep avoiding it. Abercrombie said one thing but his action did not match his words.
What is a reasonable explanation for his behavior? You obviously don't have one.
They were addressed to two Obama apologists who could not answer it. Perhaps you can.
Harlan:”Without out an official investigation with sworn Arizona peace officers nothing will happen. It is simple as that.”
But as soon as they do, people like yourself will start hollering and complaining that Sheriff Joe is wasting tax-payer dollars on loony birth certificate conspiracies!
As it stands, they can continue to pursue the facts with the volunteer posse and use Sheriff Joe’s office as a force of credibility. As far as I can tell, nothing that Joe has signed onto has been disproven...
I won’t complain - I am not an Arizona tax payer.
How can Sheriff Joe be a voice of credibility? Nothing he says will give credibility to Corsi or Farrah.
Nothing that he has signed on to has been proven to a standard that would be acceptable to a DA or a judge. It nothing more than hearsay. In the American legal system, a group of private citizens is not allowed to first make accusations and then be allowed to conduct an official legally valid investigation of those accusations. Do I really have to explain to you why that is such a bad idea?
He’s a Democrat - he is a fool and a simpleton.
I do know this. The former Republican governor of Hawaii has said that Obama was born there. They have not denounced the post COLB as a forgery.
When everyone in Hawaii keeps saying he was born there, I suspect that he was born there, birther fantasies withstanding.
How do you explain the fact that the state of Hawaii has said many times that he was born there? That the long form BC he posted was valid?
Ariz. Rev. Stat. § 21-402 A. In a county with a population of two hundred thousand persons or more a grand jury shall be called every four months each year by the presiding judge of the superior court. Each grand jury shall sit until a new grand jury has been impanelled to replace it or until its term expires pursuant to section 21-403. Additional grand juries shall be called on petition of the county attorney stating the reasons therefor. (emphasis added)
The function of the Office is to keep accurate and complete records. It is the Duty of the personel of that Office to do so and, if called upon, to attest to the accuracy of those records.
Anyone should face legal penalties for attesting to something which is not true.
Those who keep legal records must face legal penalties for attesting to something which is not true.
Your characterization that those who desire legal penalties be incurred for those who give false attestation is really only a pretense "to accuse them of further mischief" is very misguided, at best.
Accurate record keeping is essential for a sound legal system. Surely you agree, yes?
Unattended home birth registration. This explanation fits the available information. Providing cover for Obama's false birthplace story is the name of the game played by the DoH. It explains motivation for government lies about destruction of passport records (prior to 1965), ...
Former Gov. Lingle never claimed that she personally saw Obama's birth certificate, her statements were based on Dr. Fukino's words.
Under Dr. Fukino's leadership Hawaii DoH refused to confirm that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. I have personally asked them about it and they never replied.
Now it is your turn (you avoided answering this question in your first reply) - Does the Hawaii statute 338-18 (d) or any other law prevent the DoH from publishing the original birth registration index?
rslc.com
No DA would accept this investigation. It was not official and was not conducted by real law enforcement officers.
There is a proven history of bias and several prominent participants would in violation of Arizona conflict of interest laws if they were real LEO. Their credibility would no survive a second in a courtroom.
If you are going after the president of the united states then everything has to be perfect because you know there will be a firestorm. An investigation by a self selected group of citizen volunteers is far from perfect. Sheriff Joe needs to step up and conduct an official investigation with real Arizona peace officers.
The rest of the country very much disagrees with you. They have accepted the BC and Hawaii’s pronouncements.
I don’t have every answer to every minute detail but if you have to accept an elaborate conspiracy that encompasses the entire state of Hawaii, both national political parties and the entire US legal system then perhaps there is less to your theories then you think.
I suspect the DoH refuses to show you the index because they are tired of wasting time and money dealing with out of state birthers. They have a real job to do and dealing with irrational conspiracy theorists is not one of them.
Just a question, but “hospital-generated” birth certificate doesn’t make sense. The state dept of health or other government body generates the birth certificate, do they not? IIRR when my kids were born, somebody came by from the state and took the information from me (names etc). Here in FL they even tell you a hospital birth cert is not valid identification.
Harlan:”How can Sheriff Joe be a voice of credibility? Nothing he says will give credibility to Corsi or Farrah.”
Instead of gross generalizations, perhaps we should speak more in specifics.
Do you think the finding of Obama’s Selective Service forgery is compelling or do you think that Corsi and Farrah have illegitimized this finding in some way? I had personally never seen this mentioned previously by Corsi or Farrah.
Do you think the analysis of the PDF file from the White House is compelling? There is nothing that Corsi or Farrah could have done to taint the evidence since it is a file provided by the White House on the White House server. Have they somehow tampered with this digital evidence? Does their involvement make the evidence suspect? There have been many different sources that have investigated these files and as far as I know, the file can be duplicated in it’s exact “original” form such that even YOU could evaluate the veracity of the Posse’s findings.
Instead of harping on those who bring this evidence forward, perhaps you should spend more time either disproving the evidence (since you seem inclined to do so), or following the path of deception that leads to successive cover-ups.
That’s the problem with liars. They start by telling little “innocent” white lies like the first Obama BC that was posted back in 2008. Then they realize that people aren’t going to just let it die, so they have to pursue much grander lies and schemes to cover-up the initial lies. Pretty soon those lies become forgery and fraud and perjury.
I don’t know exactly what Obama is trying to cover up here (although there have been many speculations on these threads) but at this point, the cover-up may be the larger crime than what was initially covered up. The same was true of Bill Clinton and now seems to apply to Obama as well. These Democrats never learn...
I am not trying to accuse them of anything. I am AWARE of the situation that they are in. Any efforts on their part to hide information regarding birth certificates (and adoptions) are consistent with the requirements of their job.
They are between a rock and a hard place on this. The State Law says they cannot divulge any information regarding people's birth certificates, and they cannot divulge any information regarding adoptions.
In most ordinary states of affairs, this poses no problem. However, in the case of the Presidency, it pits the requirements of Hawaiian law, against the requirements of Constitutional law, and the Duty of each state to confirm credentials.
In reality, it isn't so much that Hawaii DOH is causing the problem, they are actually acting within the requirements of Hawaiian Law. The main problem is that those people who were supposed to enforce the CONSTITUTIONAL requirements (election officials in all the states) have failed to do their job, because they didn't require Original records to demonstrate compliance. (This has been a non-issue in the past, because for most candidates, there never were any suggestions that they were not born in the country of two American Parents.)
The Election officials of the States ought to have a right to know if they are looking at an actual ORIGINAL birth certificate, or a replacement one for an adopted child created by a court order. (Which at this point is a possibility)
Hawaiian privacy law (or any other state's privacy law) ought to be set aside in the instance of the Presidency.
You don't understand how it works.
An investigation is conducted by the grand jury.
The grand jury has broad investigative powers. Ariz. Rev. Stat. § 21-408. A. The county attorney or other prosecuting officer shall attend the grand jurors when requested by them, and may do so although not requested for the purpose of examining witnesses, in their presence, or of giving the grand jurors legal advice regarding any matter cognizable by them. He shall also, when requested by them, draft indictments and cause process to issue for the attendance of witnesses and other evidence. (emphasis added)
If you are going after the president of the united states then everything...
The issue is a private individual seeking ballot access. Identity documents publicly displayed by said individual appear to be fake. An investigation by a grand jury is called for.
Harlan:”The rest of the country very much disagrees with you. They have accepted the BC and Hawaii’s pronouncements.”
I beg to differ based on recent polls:
Sorry Obama: Lots Of Republicans Still Think You’re Not Even An American
http://www.sheriffin.com/article_read.php?idLink=2441872
You are third Obot apologist who failed to answer the question I posted on this thread. Your excuse is that you don't have an answer to every question. Will you stop ridiculing birthers? If you cannot answer a simple question, something is wrong with your argument.
There is no law preventing DoH to release the original birth index. Gov. Abercrombie said that torpedoing the birther controversy was his top priority (not second or third but first). Why did he stop talking - If Obama' birthplace story were true it would have been trivial for Abercrombie to fulfill his promise.
That is extraordinarily mature. I am impressed. A lot of people have suggested you are an Obot, but I have long argued against it. Your tagline, for example argues to the contrary. So do your postings on other issues. I have noticed that there are some people on your side of the issue who can and will be reasonable. (Sometime lurker comes to mind.)
It is my habit to present reasonableness against reasonableness and to present snark against snark. I much prefer civility.
"Arizona Revised Statutes - Title 21 Juries
Section 21-407 Duties of grand jurors
21-407. Duties of grand jurors
A. The grand jurors shall inquire into every offense which may be tried within the county which is presented to them by the county attorney or other prosecuting officer at the request of the county attorney, or by the attorney general as a special prosecutor appointed by the presiding judge of the superior court for the purpose of proceedings under section 21-408, subsection B, or section 38-344, and shall have access to all jails, public institutions, and public records."
No judge or DA is going to use Sheriff Joe's posse investigation as probable cause to go to a grand jury.
The Maricopa County County Attorney has his own investigators. I would imagine he could conduct his own investigation if he wanted to - I doubt he will.
There is no credible evidence that the documents are fake. The "investigation" was tainted - therefore the results are tainted too.
The governor is sick of birthers. Why can’t you see that? Nothing he says or does will end the craziness - you will simply pick fault with his reply or move on to the next argument.
You are right - there is no law preventing DoH from releasing the original birth index. He is simply ignoring you. Which proves nothing except he is ignoring you.
A lot of people have suggested you are an Obot, but I have long argued against it.
___________________________________
You posted this to El Sordo. What is your definition of an obot?
The common definition of an Obot is this : The word “Obot” came about mostly to describe a paid blogger.
But I don’t think you have to be paid to be an Obot.
Examples of obots:
http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/10575/whats-an-obot/
My definition of an Obot is anyone that spends most of their time on the internet defending Barry Hussein the homo Marxist. Now if I look at el sordo’s past posting history, for months all he has done is attack freepers and defend Barry on the BC issue. Therefore, he meets my definition of an Obot.
There is nothing compelling about their investigation. It recycles stuff that has been posted here before. I spent some time looking back at old FR threads - all the PDF issues were discussed many times. They clearly show that it is not a black and white issue like you believe and there are more likely explanations besides deliberate forgery. They clearly show a lot of amateur analysis by people that are clearly not experts.
And then I consider the sources.
Jerome Corsi has his fingerprints all over this investigation. There is not a nutty theory in the world he isn’t willing to dabble in - from 911 to NAU to abiotic oil. He called for the impeachment of GW Bush for covering up the “truth” about 911.
And the lead investigator Mike Zullo, while conducting the “investigation”, was simultaneously writing a book with Corsi about the investigation. A book that was put on sale the day after the press conference.
Corsi is a nut case and a liar. I believe nothing that comes from him. Zullo prostituted whatever credibility he had to make a buck.
It should not be a surprise that most people are ignoring this event. It should be crystal clear why it has not gained any traction in the legal system.
The birthers were played by both sheriff Joe and Corsi.
and the establishment knows that their guy the RINO Romney would never expose the truth or order an investigation into this or even how the MSM worked with the white house to help him win election and cover many issues up.
Like many in the establishment said about Newt and others, “we do not need someone rocking the boat”
All it takes is a republican to get in office and then expose obama, the left and the MSM but sadly the GOP has no balls and will only help their kind of yes sir guy.
This is not a matter of saying he is not this or that, this is about just show the damn thing and why do you refuse to show your past and why do you even fight this at all levels if you have nothing to hide and you can put all of this to bed.
I heard one liberal mouthing off some months ago how the likes of Perry are stupid and dumb and so I asked if obama was bright.
She said he was the smartest guy in the white house for some time but when I asked what grades he got or what were his papers like she couldn’t answer like all of his supporters
sadly not if we keep getting the likes of Romney and others with no balls to uncover this.
Yeah it would have taken them 10 minutes to resolve this but insrtead they chose to hide records unlawfyully change lase and do everything to prevent the truth from coming out. So they spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to hide the truth instead ofd complying with their own laws yeah waht is their real job? covering for Obama or their own corruption? You are an ignorant or deceptive obot.
The Cold Case Posse presentation has more credibility than your unsubstantiated assertions.
They are ignoring birthers. They know nothing will resolve the issue for birthers. Even if you were satisfied, someone else will find reason to disagree and will bombard the DoH with even more requests.
How can they be spending hours and dollars if they are ignoring you? How much does it cost to throw away a letter or delete an email?
It is pretty simple - birthers are a fringe group with no influence that can be ignored with complete impunity.
Jerome Corsi has his fingerprints all over this investigation. There is not a nutty theory in the world he isn’t willing to dabble in - from 911 to NAU to abiotic oil. He called for the impeachment of GW Bush for covering up the “truth” about 911.
And the lead investigator Mike Zullo, while conducting the “investigation”, was simultaneously writing a book with Corsi about the investigation. A book that was put on sale the day after the press conference.
Corsi is a nut case and a liar. You think for a second any DA would believe anything from Corsi? He has a track record of peddling any conspiracy theory to make a buck. He can’t run away from that record.
If Zullo was still a cop, he would have been fired for his conduct. No DA is going to give him the respect and credibility due a LEO - he just pissed that away to make money.
Are you familiar with Ace of Spades HQ? It is one of my favorite websites. Every single member of the staff there argues that Obama is legitimate, up to and including Ace. (Ace said it was those newspaper announcements that convinced him.)
Now I know they are conservatives. Everything they write is from the conservative perspective, but on this particular issue, they are most decidedly against me.
I define "Obot" as anyone who is actually on Obama's side, whether they be paid or not. Dr. Conspiracy is an example of one of these, and I have no doubts that a lot of liberals are coming to free republic just to post defenses of Barack Obama's legitimacy.
However, I do recognize that there are actual conservatives who believe he is legitimate. I have argued with too many of them to doubt their existence, and the Entire Staff of Ace of Spades HQ is an example of these type of people.
El Sordo and I have had plenty of testy exchanges, but I have seen nothing in his writing (except for his defense of Obama's legitimacy) to make me think he is not a conservative. I think he is a misguided conservative as opposed to being an actual Obama supporter pretending to be a conservative.
If any evidence comes forward which shows El Sordo to be other than a conservative, I will of course re-evaluate my original opinion. I've been wrong before. (Not very often, but once in a while. :) )
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