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Is Santorum Right? How to Revive American Protestantism (and Why It is So Important)
ReligiousLiberty.TV ^ | 03/12/2012 | Michael Peabody

Posted on 03/14/2012 5:43:21 PM PDT by ReligiousLibertyTV

Protestantism has indeed fallen on hard times as many American churchgoers have grown tired of theology and moral standards that are as wishy-washy as pop culture and look for churches that emphasize a clear moral standard and upright living. And it is true that no church has produced as monolithic a structure along these lines as the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic leaders long ago learned that the best way to address moral issues is to state a moral standard and stick with it regardless of whether people agree with it or live by it. Protestants continue to swim around in Laodicean tap water and are in danger of circling the drain as they are afraid to espouse standards even within their own congregations. While Protestant churches tend to see themselves as democracies, there is no such thing in Catholic thought. In the Catholic Church there is God, the saints, the Church hierarchy which handles the spiritual welfare, then the Government which serves the civic functions of life, then you. In Protestantism, there is God and then there is you. When Martin Luther wrote his 95 Theses and nailed them to the wall of the chapel at Wittenberg, his Biblical discoveries led him to realize that it was God, then you. In Protestant thought, you could assemble with other people and make a church, or not.

(Excerpt) Read more at religiousliberty.tv ...


TOPICS: Politics; Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: catholicism; protestantism; santorum
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1 posted on 03/14/2012 5:43:29 PM PDT by ReligiousLibertyTV
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

martin luther’s biblical “discoveries.” Right. And Al Gore invented the internet.


2 posted on 03/14/2012 5:52:05 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (knowledge puffeth; information deludeth.)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

He stated it was ‘mainline Protestants’ which tend to be the more liberal churches (Episcopal, ELCA, Methodists).

It is NOT true of Evangelical churches. IMO, what people are tired of is the ‘frozen chosen’ churches, because most Evangelical churches and Charismatic churches are growing from among these groups in great numbers. They don’t have the hierarchy but stand firm on moral ground. IMO, it is that that makes them grow. People are tired of churches who are lax or ambivalent on moral standards.


3 posted on 03/14/2012 5:53:11 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV; T Minus Four; Godzilla; Elsie; ejonesie22; MHGinTN; pennyfarmer; annieokie; ...

Protestants continue to swim around in Laodicean tap water and are in danger of circling the drain as they are afraid to espouse standards even within their own congregations.

- - - - -
That is an untrue statement regarding ALL (or even most) Protestant churches. There are some who have moved to the left and behave this way, but not all Protestants at all.

I quit reading after what you posted because you are pimping your blog and this comes across as a Catholic hit piece on Protestants and I don’t support things that divide the Body of Christ.


4 posted on 03/14/2012 5:58:09 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

This article gets several things wrong. Santorum didn’t attack Protestantism. He lamented that SOME Protestants are no longer really Christians.

In particular, he said “Mainline Protestants,” the accepted term for the more liberal, fashionable, upper-class churches, of which the Episcopal Church is the best known.

And it’s true. I was born and bred Episcopalian, before I became a Catholic, and I take no pleasure in seeing how that communion has degenerated over the years.

It’s noticeable that Southern Evangelicals have had no problems voting for Rick, after he said that. They understand what the problem is, too. That, in spite of the fact that the mainstream press has distorted and demonized what Rick actually said. He was not attacking Protestantism, but the betrayal of all that was good in Protestantism. But writers for papers like the NY Times wouldn’t understand what Christianity is really about if you hit them over the head with it. (That’s a metaphor, by the way!)


5 posted on 03/14/2012 6:09:03 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: reaganaut
He stated it was ‘mainline Protestants’ which tend to be the more liberal churches (Episcopal, ELCA, Methodists).

I'll have to take your word for it.

If it's important enough for someone to print an excerpt of a blog on FR, surely they can post the whole thing.

FR is a discussion forum, not a "link to my stuff so that I can get more hits", forum.

Perhaps Religious blog pimping will become a new trend on FR.

6 posted on 03/14/2012 6:09:34 PM PDT by Col Freeper (FR is a smorgasbord of Conservative thoughts and ideas - dig in and enjoy it to its fullest!)
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To: reaganaut
I don’t support things that divide the Body of Christ.

Bump! Just left another insulting thread by "Catholics" who insist on throwing rocks at Protestants. I accused them of throwing "stupid rocks". It reflects very poorly on them.

Nothing further here either. Sick of this nonsense. STUPID STUPID STUPID

7 posted on 03/14/2012 6:29:34 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one)
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To: Col Freeper

There was a thread the other day about Santorum’s comments and it was ‘mainline’ which is not ‘mainstream’ (’mainline’ is actually a reference to location - along the Main Line of the Railroad).

I agree that the whole thing should be posted. Blog pimps annoy me when they expect you to go to the link. Its not like there is a copyright issue.


8 posted on 03/14/2012 6:32:20 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

If Protestantism is, as Santorum suggests, on life support, then it desperately needs revival as a belief system that recognizes the value of the unfiltered grace of God. Protestantism, indeed Christianity in general, is here to tell the world that there is something more than what we see around us and to point to transcendent truths. If the American church wants to really reach its Divine potential, it needs to elevate humanity, not by confirming itself to the secular society or forcing secular society conform to its religion, but by pointing the world to a better alternative.
If the faith community can truly embrace this calling, and it is a calling, not a prodding, it will achieve the transformation that it seeks to achieve in the hearts of Americans and people around the world.


9 posted on 03/14/2012 6:44:40 PM PDT by Linda Frances (Only God can change a heart, but we can pray for hearts to be changed.)
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A likely scenario:
The Protestant mainline denominational churches have already succumbed to Secular Humanism and belief in big government, the nanny state. When govt. coercion or worse hits the Catholic Church and the smaller evangelical and fundamentalist churches with full force, the smaller churches(not Catholic) , the individual pastors/preachers/reverends will have to make a decision to either have smaller congregations and risk not paying bills and closing or adjusting their message and adjusting their preaching to new cowed wider audience, to the new standard...capitulation! This will happen as most of these smaller congregations are not part of a group where the weaker congregations are being supported financially by the group.
Protestanism in the main will fold.

Of course there will always be heros and martyrs, but financial realities and being of the world and in the world dictate alot of things.


10 posted on 03/14/2012 6:56:12 PM PDT by RBStealth
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To: reaganaut

The evangelical churches are a major problem because, although the conservative ones might teach reasonablygood theology, they completely fail to require any serious biblical applications. The sum total of the teaching in most of those churches is “be nice”. Demands that members not divorce, fornicate, render their children to Caesar, or take a soft position on the sodomite lifestyle are entirely missing from the typical evangelical or pentecostal church. There are exceptions, but not many...


11 posted on 03/14/2012 6:58:48 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: Linda Frances

We need to start acting like the Bride of Christ rather than the Whore of Babylon - but that is true of all Christians in general not just Protestants.


12 posted on 03/14/2012 7:32:00 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: RBStealth

Actually, from what I have seen the opposite will be true. It is the ‘mainline’ churches that are closing, the Evangelical churches are growing. Financially, some will fold but not all of them, not by far.

Christians are looking for churches who will not compromise and are leaving those that have already.

I know many pastors who will give up their non-profit status and continue to speak the truth, and financially they are stable.


13 posted on 03/14/2012 7:35:52 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: achilles2000; T Minus Four; svcw; colorcountry; Godzilla; Elsie; MHGinTN; pennyfarmer; annieokie

The evangelical churches are a major problem because, although the conservative ones might teach reasonably good theology, they completely fail to require any serious biblical applications. The sum total of the teaching in most of those churches is “be nice”. Demands that members not divorce, fornicate, render their children to Caesar, or take a soft position on the sodomite lifestyle are entirely missing from the typical evangelical or pentecostal church.

- - - - - - -
Not sure where you are getting your information but in my 18+ years as an Evangelical and in various congregations in several states you could not be further from the truth.

Most of the Evangelical churches I have attended are deep into biblical teaching, not ‘be nice’ types at all, but rather “SPEAK the truth no matter what”, and place demands on their members not divorce, fornicate, render their children to Caesar, or take a soft position on the sodomite lifestyle.

What you describe is a disease of liberal churches like the ELCA, UMC, PCUSA - all churches who are losing members left and right - not Evangelical/Pentecostal churches AT ALL.


14 posted on 03/14/2012 7:41:14 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

..and there is a major revolt occurring in the PCUSA, lots of congregations lining up to get out rather than accept the wholesale repudiation of scriptural teaching on morality by the denominational leaders.


15 posted on 03/14/2012 7:50:20 PM PDT by cookcounty (Newt 2012: ---> Because he got it DONE.)
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To: reaganaut
I go to an Evangelical Free church which teaches biblical principals. Last Sunday the Pastor had a couple come forward and give their story.

They had visited our church a few times and together, committed their lives to Christ. Neither had ever been to a church, so everything was new to them. They started getting to know people and liked the church so much that they decided to become members. The Pastor, noted when he was reading their membership paperwork that they had the same address. He asked if they would meet with him and they did. He asked them if they were living together; they were. He quoted scripture and explained to them what God thought of what they were doing. They had intended to married, so they moved the date up and lived apart until the wedding. It was actually a very funny interview, because the guy kept saying how hard it was, but he was determined to do the right thing.They have been married over a year.

Our Pastors all make it clear what God expects of us. Before elections we are reminded to carefully study each candidate; prior votes, where they stand on the life issue, ......does their values line up with God's word. It is a really great church.

16 posted on 03/14/2012 7:55:59 PM PDT by Linda Frances (Only God can change a heart, but we can pray for hearts to be changed.)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

To avoid an accusation of “blog pimping” here is the whole thing.

By Michael D. Peabody
Like it or not, the GOP Primary season seems to be winding down. Mitt Romney is emerging as the clear winner, and while there may be some chance for another candidate to take the flag, it is “mathematically unlikely.”

So let’s debrief. More than any other time in recent history, specific religious beliefs took the center stage throughout this election. One of the things that deserves closer attention is Rick Santorum’s statement that mainline Protestantism is essentially dead in America, or as Santorum, a Catholic, so delicately put it during a 2008 speech at Ave Maria University in Florida, “mainstream Protestantism is gone from the world of Christianity.”
As a Protestant (i.e. a non-Catholic or non-Anglican Christian), this statement first struck me as borderline offensive. I wanted to jump up and down and shout, “I’m still here!” In fact, there are 45 million of us according to the National Council of Churches which claims that 16% of the electorate belong to their churches. And while the media excoriated Rush Limbaugh for bloviating about a law school student’s choice of extracurricular activities, where were the Protestants when Santorum was essentially saying that the “world of Christianity” had given them the boot and that they were now “in the grasp of Satan”?

Not only did Santorum ignore separation of church and state, he focused on the church side of the divide and argued that Protestantism was separated from Christianity – there was Catholic and there was something akin to Satanism. It seems incredulous to even be typing what Santorum said, but oddly enough, the only people who seemed to take a serious look at it were the secular media. Protestants seemed to shrug their shoulders and say, “Yeah, that’s us.” But what if Santorum is actually right? Is Protestantism actually dying or negotiating itself away? Then it ought to take lessons on Catholic consistency. There are liberal and conservative Protestant churches and they run the gamut of the American political spectrum on almost every issue.

Protestantism has indeed fallen on hard times as many American churchgoers have grown tired of theology and moral standards that are as wishy-washy as pop culture and look for churches that emphasize a clear moral standard and upright living. And it is true that no church has produced as monolithic a structure along these lines as the Roman Catholic Church. Catholic leaders long ago learned that the best way to address moral issues is to state a moral standard and stick with it regardless of whether people agree with it or live by it. Protestants continue to swim around in Laodicean tap water and are in danger of circling the drain as they are afraid to espouse standards even within their own congregations.

While Protestant churches tend to see themselves as democracies, there is no such thing in Catholic thought. In the Catholic Church there is God, the saints, the Church hierarchy which handles the spiritual welfare, then the Government which serves the civic functions of life, then you. In Protestantism, there is God and then there is you. When Martin Luther wrote his 95 Theses and nailed them to the wall of the chapel at Wittenberg, his Biblical discoveries led him to realize that it was God, then you. In Protestant thought, you could assemble with other people and make a church, or not.

Of course, by removing the Divine seal of approval from the church or civic hierarchy, the very foundations of those establishments were threatened. Kings could no longer claim to rule for generations by Divine Right, and the Pope didn’t hold the keys to salvation and require people to jump through various hoops in order to get into Heaven. In Protestant thought, salvation was only through Jesus Christ and it was indeed possible to have a very real, personal relationship directly with Christ. The structures of the Holy Roman Empire gradually lost their relevance in Protestant countries. In Protestant thought, one could no longer involuntarily participate in sacraments and benefit spiritually from those exercises. You couldn’t find yourself in Heaven just because somebody else did something on your behalf. You, yes you as an individual, needed to intellectually accept certain spiritual realities. While sacraments remained important, they were useless without a concurrent “renewal of the mind,” which was aided by prayer and Bible study, which, until the Reformation, was unavailable to individuals. In fact, before the Reformation, the mere act of translating scripture into a common language was considered heresy as John Wycliffe found out the hard way after he translated parts of the Latin Vulgate into vernacular English. Although Wycliff died of a stroke in 1384, he had so irritated the ecclesiastical powers that be that his bones were dug up and burned in 1415 at the command of Pope Martin V.

The priesthood of all believers, or the idea that believers were seen as equals in the eyes of God was fundamental to the formation of American democracy where any citizen could become active in government and any citizen older than 35 could run for President. People could group together to form churches, and separation of church and state preserved the rights of religious groups and protected them from each other, and preserved the right to be non-religious, or even form your own church. So long as you didn’t hurt anybody else, your beliefs were welcome at the table and your right to believe, or not believe, was jealously guarded.

As an American, you could benefit from unprecedented individual civil and religious freedom brought about by two keeping the sphere of church distinct from the sphere of state. What happened between you and God was your business, and the state didn’t get involved in what your church taught and your church was not allowed to set the agenda for the state. It was this combination of the Protestant ethic and the republican form of government that made America a free country and set the standard for true freedom of religion. This reality was preserved through the rule, not of politicians or prelates, but of law, specifically the United States Constitution and its Bill of Rights which kept government from being involved in affairs of the church and vice versa. This environment gave religion, faith, property rights, and entrepreneurship the room to thrive. The only times of challenge were when people tried to use force to rob other people of their God-given freedom and inherent human worth.

While Christianity in Europe has struggled with dying national churches, and where birthright determined the likelihood of individual success, the American form of government has proved a blessing to generations of America.

What threatens American Protestantism the most is when Protestants stop believing in God and begin believing in belief. When belief becomes bigger than God, there is pressure to use the power of the church to influence religious politicians and to extend the power of the church to the government and beyond. We need to remember is that America is not the church. Just because we believe something doesn’t mean that we need the government to make a law to force it on everybody. To put it bluntly, in America, it is legal to believe things that could compromise your own eternal salvation. The state won’t stand in the way of your own theological stupidity. And it would be wrong for the state to assume such power because, in Protestant thought, spiritual actions and even knowledge without a change of heart is worthless.

Conservatives who express great concern about an emerging “nanny state” ought to take notes.

If Protestantism is, as Santorum suggests, on life support, then it desperately needs revival as a belief system that recognizes the value of the unfiltered grace of God. Protestantism, indeed Christianity in general, is here to tell the world that there is something more than what we see around us and to point to transcendent truths. If the American church wants to really reach its Divine potential, it needs to elevate humanity, not by confirming itself to the secular society or forcing secular society conform to its religion, but by pointing the world to a better alternative.

If the faith community can truly embrace this calling, and it is a calling, not a prodding, it will achieve the transformation that it seeks to achieve in the hearts of Americans and people around the world.

“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” 1 Peter 2:9 (NIV).
###


17 posted on 03/14/2012 8:00:20 PM PDT by ReligiousLibertyTV
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To: reaganaut
.


This ONE article exposes Santorum's "Infantile" thought processes ...


Is Santortum "probably" a decent man ? Yes ...




Should he STOP confusing getting elected POTUS for serving as Billy Graham's assistant pastor ?

Yes ...




I am an Evangelical Christian ...

I am likewise "mind numbed" by the "pure" political ignorance of my fellow believers in Christ ...



.
18 posted on 03/14/2012 8:00:49 PM PDT by Patton@Bastogne (Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin in 2012 !)
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To: achilles2000

What are you talking about?
I have seen misinformation before but this post of yours must have been pulled out of a septic tank.


19 posted on 03/14/2012 8:01:10 PM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER & Education http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: reaganaut

I wish you were right, but I spend a great deal of time on this subject with pastors and denominational leaders, and I can assure you that they are mostly happy to to teach the literal ressurection, virgin birth, etc., but they most assuredly do not emphasize the things I mentioned. The SBC, for example, is going in the wrong direction (while protesting that they are just trying to “contextualize” and be “culturally relevant”).


20 posted on 03/14/2012 8:17:03 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: svcw; achilles2000

“What are you talking about?
I have seen misinformation before but this post of yours must have been pulled out of a septic tank.”

Gross ignorance at any rate, or wishful thinking.


21 posted on 03/14/2012 8:20:39 PM PDT by Psalm 144 ("I think we ought to listen to Alinsky." - Governor G. Romney, father of Bishop Willard M. Romney.)
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To: achilles2000
What in the Sam Hill are you talking about? I think you are mixing up "evangelical" with churches with the words "Unitarian" or "Universal" in them.

I have regularly attended three different evangelical churches in the last six years, as well as visited several dozen. My present congregation is on the Pentecostal side. It's the BIBLE and Jesus all the way. Straight up preaching from the word, and no soft-pedaling.

22 posted on 03/14/2012 8:25:03 PM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: svcw

You don’t get out much, do you?

Try, for example, getting the typical evangelical or pentecostal pastor to tell his congregation not to render their children to Caesar. If that is too daunting, just try to get them to tell the congregation that the church must do a careful investigation of the local school district to determine whether it is promoting promiscuity and the sodomite lifestyle as normal. Virtually every school district does this, by the way. But pastors don’t want to know (definitively) any more than the congregants with their children in government schools want to know. Pastors, of course, know that questioning the congregants’ government school habit would threaten their job security and, therefore maintain silence on this issue.

More broadly, the SBC has adopted an amnesty resolution (last June in Phoenix), is selling the “new” NIV ( which is the old TNIV) and other heresy (e.g. “The Shack”) through Lifeway, is getting squishy on the sodomite lifestyle, and has elements moving toward embracing environmentalism. The leadership is also now openly pushing affirmative action for SBC leadership posts and trying to smear any opposition as “racist”.

Bear in mind that I am mentioning the SBC just for illustration. These things are happening to one degree or another in the vast majority of churches.


23 posted on 03/14/2012 8:33:58 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: reaganaut

Yes, mighty dandy but the fit hasn’t hit the shan!


24 posted on 03/14/2012 8:35:39 PM PDT by RBStealth
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To: T Minus Four

See 23. Bear in mind that teaching theology and holding congregants accountable for what they are doing are different things.

I probably spend more time in the field on this issue than anyone on FR. While there are certainly variations, the overall situation is a travesty.


25 posted on 03/14/2012 8:36:43 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: Texas Fossil

I think that the criticism of Protestants is largely right. Unfortunately, the situation among Catholics is much worse. Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster theologically for them, and it weakened standards so that sodomites flooded into the priesthood - particularly the Jesuits. That is where the “pedophile priest” problem came from, along with the cover-up.

Serious Catholics need to repair a lot of damage, and we do too, in general.


26 posted on 03/14/2012 8:41:18 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: achilles2000

What churches you are talking about I know nothing about.
I attend a Bible believing Spirit filled church.


27 posted on 03/14/2012 8:41:46 PM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER & Education http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: svcw

I didn’t say that there aren’t exceptions. Family integrated churches, for example, as a whole, are doing a great job. Perhaps yours is too.


28 posted on 03/14/2012 8:43:40 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: reaganaut; ReligiousLibertyTV; T Minus Four; Godzilla; Elsie; ejonesie22; MHGinTN; pennyfarmer; ...

Behind all the incense, in reality, Roman Catholicism competes with mainline Protestant denominations for last place in commitment and 1st place in liberal moral views, in contrast to evangelical faith: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html

And the more literal the Catholic overall takes the Bible - like as evangelicals and contrary to most Roman Catholic scholarship, including that which is behind his own official Bible for America - than the more conservative in moral views he is.


29 posted on 03/14/2012 8:55:04 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a morally destitute+damned+sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you+live..)
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To: achilles2000

I never throw rocks at Catholics (figuratively or literally).

Yes, many Protestant groups are off track. Some are not.

I have NO desire to argue Protestant/Catholic differences. But I find the constant jabs from them here annoying.

“Stupid Rock” throwing.


30 posted on 03/14/2012 8:59:23 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one)
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To: achilles2000

saw it. You should come to my church.


31 posted on 03/14/2012 9:02:05 PM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: achilles2000

saw it. You should come to my church.


32 posted on 03/14/2012 9:02:17 PM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: achilles2000

saw it. You should come to my church.


33 posted on 03/14/2012 9:02:17 PM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: achilles2000

We do see increasing compromise, yet as stated, they are still much in contrast to the typical Catholic counterparts: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html


34 posted on 03/14/2012 9:17:05 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a morally destitute+damned+sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you+live..)
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To: reaganaut
Sorry about that. I thought your comment was referring to something contained in the unposted part of the blog being pimped, vice what Santorum himself said in another thread.

Have a nice evening.

35 posted on 03/14/2012 9:18:43 PM PDT by Col Freeper (FR is a smorgasbord of Conservative thoughts and ideas - dig in and enjoy it to its fullest!)
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To: reaganaut

Among the people I know Baptists are the most divorced and remarried.


36 posted on 03/14/2012 9:30:05 PM PDT by kalee (The offenses we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Actually, we’ve all been called out of the ‘churches’ because they all are apostate and decadent now, especially the large Nico Laitan ones like the catholic, orthodox, and episcopal.


37 posted on 03/14/2012 10:10:22 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: reaganaut

You are 100% correct.

It is the huge Nico Laitan churches that have gone astray. The individual, autonomous home churches are the only ones that are truly holding to the word.


38 posted on 03/14/2012 10:14:23 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: achilles2000
The sum total of the teaching in most of those churches is “be nice”.

Thank you, Oprah!

39 posted on 03/15/2012 4:50:19 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon'..."
40 posted on 03/15/2012 4:51:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
Christians are looking for churches who will not compromise and are leaving those that have already.

AMEN!

41 posted on 03/15/2012 4:51:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Linda Frances
They had visited our church a few times and together, committed their lives to Christ. Neither had ever been to a church, so everything was new to them.

WOW!!

Angels rejoicing! (me, too!)

42 posted on 03/15/2012 4:53:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Patton@Bastogne
Shall he be ALLOWED to only say things that would OFFEND someone else?




43 posted on 03/15/2012 4:58:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Patton@Bastogne
Ok...


Shall he be ALLOWED to only say things that would NOT offend someone else?

44 posted on 03/15/2012 4:59:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: achilles2000
...take a soft position on the sodomite lifestyle ...

Wow! I don't get to reply to lines like this often!!







Genesis 13:13
Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and
their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men
from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them
."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

 

Psalms 12:8      The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Ain't this just FABULOUS??      More?

Isaiah 3:9   The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b  Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.


 

 

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.



2 Peter 2

 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 4.  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,  putting them into gloomy dungeons  to be held for judgment;
 5.  if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
 6.  if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
 7.  and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
 8.  (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
 9.  if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
 10.  This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature  and despise authority.   Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
 11.  yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
 12.  But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
 13.  They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done.
Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.



But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

 9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
     Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 


If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

45 posted on 03/15/2012 5:01:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: achilles2000
While there are certainly variations, the overall situation is a travesty.

Luke 18:8b (niv)

... when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

46 posted on 03/15/2012 5:04:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Texas Fossil
I have NO desire to argue Protestant/Catholic differences.

MORMONs want to pour gas on this small flame.

Then they and their chosen heresy can slink away in all the uproar.

47 posted on 03/15/2012 5:05:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
They don’t have the hierarchy but stand firm on moral ground

This week.

48 posted on 03/15/2012 5:06:17 AM PDT by Jim Noble ("The Germans: At your feet, or at your throat" - Winston Churchill)
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To: Texas Fossil
I never throw rocks at Catholics (figuratively or literally).

I will point up what the BIBLE has to say about rocks...




 
Is Peter the 'rock'?
 


NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
 
NIV Matthew 8:14
  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.
 
NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
 
NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
 
NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
 

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....


NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "
Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.
 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
   and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
 
NIV Luke 6:48
   He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
 
NIV Romans 9:33
  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 
 
 
NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.


But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
 24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.
 
NIV Numbers 20:8
   "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
   Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.
 
NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
 
NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'
 
NIV Psalms 18:2
  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.
 
NIV Psalms 18:31
   For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV Psalms 18:46
  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
 
NIV Psalms 19:14
   May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 28:1
   To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
 
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
 
NIV Psalms 42:9
   I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
 
NIV Psalms 62:2
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:6
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:7
   My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
 
NIV Psalms 71:3
   Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
 
NIV Psalms 78:35
   They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 89:26
   He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
 
NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."
 
NIV Psalms 95:1
   Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
 
NIV Psalms 144:1
   Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
 
NIV Isaiah 17:10
   You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
 
NIV Isaiah 26:4
   Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
 
NIV Isaiah 30:29
 And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
 
NIV Isaiah 44:8
   Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 
 
NIV Habakkuk 1:12
   O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

.....No other rock.............
 
And now you know the Biblical position!


49 posted on 03/15/2012 5:07:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: kalee
Among the people I know Baptists are the most divorced and remarried.


And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 9:12
Luke 5:31
Mark 2:17

Musta been important; to record it 3 times...

50 posted on 03/15/2012 5:11:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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