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WAS IT REALLY 2D MURDER?
boblonsberry.com ^ | 04/12/12 | Bob Lonsberry

Posted on 04/12/2012 6:43:08 AM PDT by shortstop

George Zimmerman is guilty.

Of something.

But I’m not sure it’s second-degree murder.

Unless there is some bit of evidence we don’t know about, unless there is some smoking gun out there, there is nothing in the Florida statute on second-degree murder that sounds like what happened that night.

The special prosecutor got to strut for the cameras last night, but if she can’t deliver the goods, and there is an acquittal, there is going to be hell to pay – and riot police are probably going to get called out.

In a case that has turned out to be more about race politics than the events on the sidewalk of a Florida subdivision, you wonder what last night’s announcement was really about. Was it mollification? Was it the considered opinion of a veteran prosecutor? Was it the first step in a political lynching?

Time will tell.

But here’s what the law book says.

In Florida, there are two ways a person can be guilty of second-degree murder.

In the first, someone has to be killed by someone showing “a depraved mind.” There must also be the perpetration of an act “imminently dangerous to another.” If those two factors exist, without premeditation, in Florida, that’s second-degree murder.

In the second, someone has to be killed by someone who is committing another felony crime. That list of specified felony crimes runs from arson and kidnapping to aircraft piracy and aggravated stalking. But none of the specified crimes – including terrorism – is anything like what George Zimmerman did that night. Specifically, he has not been accused of any other felony crime, so he could not be charged under this part of Florida’s second-degree murder law.

Which gets back to the first part.

Did George Zimmerman commit an act “imminently dangerous to another” and did he do so with “a depraved mind.”

It is clear that shooting a gun at someone is an act that is “imminently dangerous.” But did George Zimmerman fire the gun with “a depraved mind?”

That’s harder to say, and maybe impossible to prove.

Was it “depraved” for a Neighborhood Watch guy to follow a young man down the street? Unwise and ultimately tragic, yes, but depraved?

Not in most dictionaries.

And then there is the aspect of self-defense. If George Zimmerman makes the argument that he was repelling an attack he thought endangered his life or limb, the whole situation changes. The prosecution would have to not only show that George Zimmerman was not in danger, and that no reasonable person would consider themselves endangered in that situation, but that he had a depraved mind.

Unless there’s evidence that we don’t know about, that goes to Zimmerman’s state of mind, that’s a very high standard for the prosecution to meet.

That phrase “beyond a reasonable doubt” is a purposefully difficult level of evidence.

In this case, we only have one version of events – George Zimmerman’s. We can’t presume he is being truthful, but the prosecution will have to affirmatively prove that he is being untruthful. And that will be hard, largely because Trayvon Martin is not here to tell his side of the story.

According to press accounts, a witness verifies Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon was on top of him hitting him. The enhanced video from the police station shows an injury on the back of his head.

Those things, though not conclusive, are supportive of George Zimmerman’s version of events.

And in the absence of another theory, and evidence to support that theory, you’re not getting to “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

There are practical aspects of trying this charge that will be difficult and disruptive.

How, for example, do you seat a jury?

And what will the racial makeup of that jury be and will that ratio be satisfactory to the people and activists who have been shouting for justice? In the blood lust that is masquerading as justice, how does a trial on this charge lead to anything but chaos?

If George Zimmerman is acquitted, as there seems to be a fair chance he will be, is there a possibility of racial upset or riot? It’s happened before, more than once.

Have we just found this generation’s OJ trial? Have we just found this generation’s Rodney King?

I will trust that this prosecution is not political. But I will have my doubts.

Don’t get me wrong.

It’s George Zimmerman’s fault that Trayvon Martin is dead. If Zimmerman had stayed home or in his vehicle, none of this would have happened.

There is clearly reckless endangerment here, and maybe there is some species of criminally negligent homicide or maybe even a manslaughter. But murder, that’s unlikely, and even less likely of being proven.

So we got headlines last night.

And a show trial sometime down the road.

But after that we may have uncorked hell.


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KEYWORDS: florida; travon; zimmerman
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No matter what the final verdict turns out to be, I predict this situation will not end well.
1 posted on 04/12/2012 6:43:09 AM PDT by shortstop
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To: shortstop
I wonder if the charge was 'suggested' by the USDOJ with the expectation of an acquittal and resultant race riots.

Everyone knows its what the Son of Ayers and Holder really want.

2 posted on 04/12/2012 6:46:26 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: shortstop

Riots if acquitted.

Strongly worded protest letters to the editor if convicted.

Guess what group the gutless SP and politicians fear?

The rioters or the letter writers?

Guess what demographic makes up the majority of rioters.

Guess what demographic makes up the majority of letter writers.


3 posted on 04/12/2012 6:47:46 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: shortstop
Very good post, laying out the particulars of the law. Unfortunately, those who simply want to preen for the cameras are never guilty of using logic or facts.

I have two bets with myself. The first is that GZ will be killed in jail, probably before the trial, but definitely afterward if convicted. The second is that regardless of the verdict, there will be riots - simply because they are opportunities to loot.

4 posted on 04/12/2012 6:49:19 AM PDT by Pecos (O.K., joke's over. Time to bring back the Constitution.)
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To: shortstop
It’s George Zimmerman’s fault that Trayvon Martin is dead. If Zimmerman had stayed home or in his vehicle, none of this would have happened.

The stupidity exhibited in this statement is enough to take one's breath away.

5 posted on 04/12/2012 6:51:01 AM PDT by pgkdan (Rick Santorum 2012. Conservative's last, best chance!)
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To: shortstop

Yes, and take this situation coupled with the tossing out of Obama care as the act of a racist supreme court against the first black president... hell was uncorked in 2008, its always been in the cards.


6 posted on 04/12/2012 6:51:08 AM PDT by dps.inspect (the system is rigged...)
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To: shortstop
"...did he do so with “a depraved mind.”

No but Prosecutor Cory has one in her head.

7 posted on 04/12/2012 6:51:26 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: shortstop

“It’s George Zimmerman’s fault that Trayvon Martin is dead.”

Actually, if Trayvon Martin launched an unprovoked attack on George Zimmerman, I’d say the blame is squarely on Trayvon.

DIMS don’t like “Stand Your Ground” laws, as such laws adversely impact a core RAT constituency group—Criminals.


8 posted on 04/12/2012 6:52:47 AM PDT by Arm_Bears (Journalists first; then lawyers.)
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To: Hulka

ooh I know this one: the answer is “people the NAAClP wants to put in jail and force to pay reparations.”

(/s)


9 posted on 04/12/2012 6:52:47 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: shortstop

The Duke Lacrosse affair didn’t go to trial. This one won’t either. It’s a clear case of self defense. It’s all show.


10 posted on 04/12/2012 6:54:22 AM PDT by Former Proud Canadian (Obamanomics-We don't need your stinking tar sands oil, we'll just grow algae.)
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To: Pecos

GZ isn’t in general pop. He has his own cell.


11 posted on 04/12/2012 6:56:38 AM PDT by goseminoles
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To: Arm_Bears

If Trayvon Martin was standing his ground against an armed stalker, I’d say the blame is squarely on the armed stalker.


12 posted on 04/12/2012 6:56:51 AM PDT by FewsOrange
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To: skeeter
I wonder if the charge was 'suggested' by the USDOJ with the expectation of an acquittal and resultant race riots.

That is not beyond anything else I have seen from little bammy's crew of communists, so your theory has merit.

The prosecutor my be maxing out the charge in order to get GZ to plea deal to a lesser charge.

It will take a pretty crafty lawyer to defend him on this one as there are so many factions involved. I listened to the prosecutor's speech (live) yesterday and it sounded like she was introducing all the stars at Oscar night. I did not believe the crap she spouted about proceeding with the case according to the strictest letter of the law for ONE SECOND.

NO.

The entire thing is dripping with political theater.

.p

13 posted on 04/12/2012 6:57:03 AM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: Paladin2
The SMIRK on the Prosecutor’s face is what got me.
14 posted on 04/12/2012 6:57:12 AM PDT by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: Former Proud Canadian
The Duke Lacrosse affair didn’t go to trial. This one won’t either. It’s a clear case of self defense. It’s all show.

One would certainly hope so, but we are so far down the rabbit hole these days, we'll just have to wait and see.
15 posted on 04/12/2012 6:57:49 AM PDT by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: shortstop

And remember, the prosecution has the burden of proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it wasn’t self defense.


16 posted on 04/12/2012 6:57:49 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: shortstop
Trayvon Martin was indeed murdered. He was murdered by a media that, for its own enrichment, constantly bombards young people with the message that it's "cool" to be a "gangsta".

And, these are the folks that should have been in jail long ago.

17 posted on 04/12/2012 6:57:56 AM PDT by The Duke
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To: shortstop

“It’s George Zimmerman’s fault that Trayvon Martin is dead. If Zimmerman had stayed home or in his vehicle, none of this would have happened.”

####

Utter ignorance.

Yeah, and if whites don’t protect their property the savages can destroy the REST of the country, but.....golly...at least they won’t be shot.


18 posted on 04/12/2012 6:59:58 AM PDT by EyeGuy (2012: When the Levee Breaks)
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To: TLI

I found her comment that she was ‘seeking justice for Trayvon’ rather than seeking justice, period, interesting.


19 posted on 04/12/2012 7:00:23 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: shortstop

” and riot police are probably going to get called out.”

Isn’t that the plan anyway?


20 posted on 04/12/2012 7:00:36 AM PDT by vanilla swirl (searching for something meaningfull to say)
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To: shortstop

If you are getting your head beaten on concrete, might that give you a “depraved mind”?


21 posted on 04/12/2012 7:00:58 AM PDT by pnz1
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To: Coldwater Creek

Jared Lee Loughner wore a smirk too. It goes with mental illness.


22 posted on 04/12/2012 7:01:49 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: TLI
The prosecutor my be maxing out the charge in order to get GZ to plea deal to a lesser charge.

That's standard for prosecutors, especially when they have a middle-class defendant who's family would be financially ruined by legal fees if the case went to trial, and whose life would be effectively over if convicted. They go for murder-2 and say they will allow a plea of manslaughter with under a year in jail.

23 posted on 04/12/2012 7:04:02 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: shortstop
*If* Zimmerman did,in fact,have bruises/cuts on his face and/or the back of his head and *if* he has,in fact,led a decent life with no trouble with the law,etc and *if* Trayvon was,in fact,known on Twitter as “No Limits N****” and *did*,in fact,tweet stuff like “f*** some b**ch” and *if* he had,in fact,been suspended from school three times I think it's more likely than not (probably *much* more likely than not) that it was self defense...and nothing more.
24 posted on 04/12/2012 7:04:02 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Jimmy Carter Is No Longer The Worst President To Have Served In My Lifetime.)
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To: shortstop

Lonsberry makes some truly idiotic statements in this article. I take it Zimmerman doesn’t have the right to defend himself with a firearm.


25 posted on 04/12/2012 7:04:15 AM PDT by Third Person
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To: shortstop

Political Charge? This May Be Prosecutor’s Biggest Mistake
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=204615


26 posted on 04/12/2012 7:04:23 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: shortstop

This prosecutor is a hack.IMHO she gave in to public and political pressure and overcharged him with second degree murder and avoided putting it in front of a grand jury for fear of a no bill. At most he should have been charged with manslaughter which more does not involve intent and covers use of excessive force in instances of perceived self defense. Even Trayvon Martin’s mother said today she thinks it was an accident after the situation got out of control. Apparently she has more sense than this cowardly prosecutor.


27 posted on 04/12/2012 7:04:36 AM PDT by chuckee
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To: skeeter
That's exactly it.

They have no intention of getting a guilty verdict.

She's doing a repeat of the R king trial where charges were filed against the cops that the evidence didn't support.

There was never any intention of finding the cops guilty, and the left used it as a excuse for race riots.

Doing the same thing here.

I just wonder if any of the know-it-all on the radio will be smart enough to figure it out or will they be idiots and get sucked into the lefts trap.

28 posted on 04/12/2012 7:05:18 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: shortstop
What dictionaries did you use for 'depraved'?

You can't go to the OED, or Webster's, or Mirriam-Webster and expect to find a definition that is the legal definition. If you're going to rely on a dictionary, then you need to go to Black's Law Dictionary and look up a 'depraved mind' or 'depraved indifference.'

Essentially, what that means is that Corey is going to claim that Zimmerman had enmity or malice toward a person or group such that he was indifferent to the face he was endangering the life of the individual or the member of a group.

Although she could claim it was Martin, individually, or blacks, I think it's more likely she'll claim he had enmity toward 'punks' and people who were suspiciously going around his neighborhood. She'll point to his 911 calls, he claims about how these punks always get away, how he was concerned that Martin was running, how he set himself up in neighborhood watch, etc.

To most of us, these sound like reasonable sentiments by Martin - although he may have carried his neighborhood watch interests to a point of obsession. To Corey, she'll present everything he can to show he was obsessed and this created an enmity to suspicious looking people strolling around his neighborhood, to the point that he carried a gun and followed them around endangering their safety even if they were doing nothing wrong. That's what was 'depraved' in her view, IMO. It's not using the word in the sense you or I would use it in common conversation.

29 posted on 04/12/2012 7:05:49 AM PDT by Scoutmaster (You knew the job was dangerous when you took it)
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To: shortstop
2nd degree was the max the prosecution could go for in this case.

It wasn't pre-meditated, but it was something along the lines of instant combat.

What it will boil down to is whether Zimmerman was perceived by Martin as an aggressor and attacked, or Martin decided to attack unprovoked. I think more of the first rather than the second.

I still believe it will reduced Man 1, time served, probation.

Change of venue won't work, because of all the media.

30 posted on 04/12/2012 7:06:00 AM PDT by Wizdum (My job is to get you to shoot soda out your nose)
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To: shortstop
It’s George Zimmerman’s fault that Trayvon Martin is dead.

This is false, flat on it's face. This pre-supposed that George Zimmerman went out of his house with the intent to kill someone. This is demonstratably false, as he has no previous convictions, and was a respected member of his community, and was Captain of his Neighborhood Watch group.

I submit that the fault for Trayvon's death lies 100% on Trayvon. If Trayvon had taken the option to behave as a civilized person is expected to behave, instead of a 'Thug', Trayvon would be alive and well today, albeit perhaps behind bars for some other crime (given his propensity to walk abound with a bag of women's jewelry and a "Burglary tool" (screwdriver).

31 posted on 04/12/2012 7:06:39 AM PDT by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: shortstop
The author is confusing a term of art with its colloquial meaning.

In law, acting with a "depraved mind" means committing great harm as a result of ignoring the rules normal people live by. If the jury decides that Zimmerman shot and killed Martin without legitimate justification, that would be a textbook case of "depraved mind".

It boils down to whether or not the jury believes Zimmerman's self-defense claim (as we already knew).

32 posted on 04/12/2012 7:08:30 AM PDT by Only Sane Man
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To: FewsOrange
From the "facts" presented so far, who was stalking whom is the question.

A neighborhood watchman following a person is not stalking. That person following the watchman with plans to take him down is stalking.

No matter what is said or done here, the Revs and the black panthers have done their groundwork. The fire is set with kindling on top. One spark is all it takes.

Meanwhile, all sorts of atrocities have happened black on white and not a murmur from the media or (no)justice dept.

vaudine

33 posted on 04/12/2012 7:08:44 AM PDT by vaudine
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To: shortstop
And remember, the prosecution has the burden of proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it wasn’t self defense.

They must produce WITNESSES...WITNESSES and more credible WITNESSES. That is going to be very very hard to do.

34 posted on 04/12/2012 7:09:33 AM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: skeeter

It’s the Chicago Way, to try and bring enough chaos to Florida that the vote is suppressed among non-democrat voters thus swinging the state to little barry bastard. This ‘prosecutor’ is working for her master, little barry dunham, aka Barry Soetoro, aka Barry Obama, aka Batack Hussein Obama, aka son of perdition.


35 posted on 04/12/2012 7:11:55 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: shortstop

THIS IDIOT PROSECUTOR SHOULD BE DISBARRED

ZIMMERMAN’S LAWYER SHOULD DEMAND A GRAND JURY

THERE IS NOTHING TO SUPPORT MURDER 2

AND IF HE IS TRIED AND FOUND NOT GUILTY THERE WILL BE L.A. SIZED RIOTS


36 posted on 04/12/2012 7:15:25 AM PDT by Mr. K (If Romney wins the primary, I am writing-in PALIN)
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To: MHGinTN

I think it is because the prosecutor is simply FEARFUL for her life.


37 posted on 04/12/2012 7:16:51 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Don Corleone
If there is a trial (assuming Zimmerman does not get out on bail and fall victim to someone hoping to collect the $10,000 from Holder's friends in the NBPP), it will probably be after the election--so Obama can use the case to fire up the base and any actual verdict will be too late to impact the voting.

The jurors can claim to be unbiassed when selected, but once they get to the deliberations stage, what's to stop them from ignoring the evidence presented in the trial and going by what they initially heard on TV?

It could be like the trial in To Kill a Mockingbird.

38 posted on 04/12/2012 7:18:34 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Mr. K

When will be suppressed very quickly, police in FL not like L.A.


39 posted on 04/12/2012 7:18:52 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: shortstop
"It’s George Zimmerman’s fault that Trayvon Martin is dead. "

No... it is Trayvon's fault Trayvon is dead. If he was home where he should have been, instead of out in the dark in the rain walking between houses casing the joint, and if he had not attacked the wrong (armed) man... he would be alive

40 posted on 04/12/2012 7:20:23 AM PDT by Mr. K (If Romney wins the primary, I am writing-in PALIN)
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To: shortstop

It won’t end well for Zimmerman, that is for damn sure.


41 posted on 04/12/2012 7:23:27 AM PDT by sport
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To: FewsOrange

Yes—It cuts both ways.

Apparently, that’s why there’s going to be a trial now—To figure out exactly what happened.


42 posted on 04/12/2012 7:24:43 AM PDT by Arm_Bears (Journalists first; then lawyers.)
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To: pgkdan

I knew there was a reason why I never read columns by Bob Lonsberry.

This crapola confirms the fact this moron is out of his mind.


43 posted on 04/12/2012 7:24:59 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Arm_Bears
Actually, if Trayvon Martin launched an unprovoked attack on George Zimmerman, I’d say the blame is squarely on Trayvon.

I agree, but what if Zimmerman provoked Trayvon? There's a murky area in the story where we go from Zimmerman shadowing Trayvon to Trayvon pummeling Zimmerman. What happened in between? I'm wondering if the DA is going to try to prove that Zimmerman provoked Trayvon and started the whole mess....? What's the law concerning using deadly force in that case??

44 posted on 04/12/2012 7:25:56 AM PDT by randog (Tap into America!)
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To: skeeter

I would not bet the farm on an aquital.


45 posted on 04/12/2012 7:26:31 AM PDT by sport
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To: Pecos

The particuarsof the law are irrevelent at this point, my FRiend. The powers that be have decreed that there must be blood to calm the masses, and unfortunately for Zimmerman, that blood will be his. For now until the next “Zimmerman”.


46 posted on 04/12/2012 7:29:48 AM PDT by sport
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To: Biggirl

Watch the BBC news this Spring and you will see unfolding the barry bastard raceriot strategy. The number of flash mobbings will increase as the training intensifies, the training of the riot dead souls with black skin who are the ‘cannon fodder’ little barry bastard needs to sustain a race riot atmosphere for the suppression of voter turnout. Floriduh will not be left to chance this time. The chaos and hate-filled atmosphere in Floriduh is being planned and this prosecutor is part of the startegy to inflame the gullible black voters AND lawless black who will ste the fires and do the murdering the black panthers want. I’m predicting, so take it or leave it, but the flash mob training is gearing up from the ‘community organizers’. Te affirmative action perp in the White House must be sustained in order to bring America down.


47 posted on 04/12/2012 7:32:01 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Biggirl

Watch the BBC news this Spring and you will see unfolding the barry bastard raceriot strategy. The number of flash mobbings will increase as the training intensifies, the training of the riot dead souls with black skin who are the ‘cannon fodder’ little barry bastard needs to sustain a race riot atmosphere for the suppression of voter turnout. Floriduh will not be left to chance this time. The chaos and hate-filled atmosphere in Floriduh is being planned and this prosecutor is part of the startegy to inflame the gullible black voters AND lawless black who will ste the fires and do the murdering the black panthers want. I’m predicting, so take it or leave it, but the flash mob training is gearing up from the ‘community organizers’. The affirmative action perp in the White House must be sustained in order to bring America down.


48 posted on 04/12/2012 7:32:22 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: skeeter
I found her comment that she was ‘seeking justice for Trayvon’ rather than seeking justice, period, interesting.

Yeah, I caught that too.

Given the showy nature of her grand speech I would think she is going to play this to the media.

Is there an AG or somthing in her neck of the woods up for re-election?

.

49 posted on 04/12/2012 7:33:09 AM PDT by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: Biggirl

“I think it is because the prosecutor is simply FEARFUL for her life.”

I don’t She seemed happy to be getting all the attention.


50 posted on 04/12/2012 7:34:07 AM PDT by CodeToad (I'm so right-wing if I lifted my left leg I'd go into a spin.)
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