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Pastor Sentenced To 2 Years In Prison For Teaching That Parents Should Spank Their Children
Right Side News ^ | 5/30/2012 | American Dream

Posted on 06/01/2012 4:03:38 AM PDT by IbJensen

Do you believe that parents should be able to spank their children? Do you ever express that opinion to others?

If so, then you could be sent to prison. Sadly, that is exactly what happened to one pastor up in Wisconsin recently. A minister named Philip Caminiti was sentenced to 2 years in prison for simply teaching that parents should spank their children when they misbehave. Please note that Caminiti was not accused of spanking anyone or of physically hurting anyone.

He was put in prison simply for his speech. He was put in prison simply for what he was teaching others to do. Whether you agree with spanking or not, this should be incredibly sobering for all of us.

Increasingly, speech is being penalized in the United States. Much of the time, the focus of the attacks by the forces of political correctness is on religious speech. If this trend continues, many of you that are reading this article might be put in jail for the things that you say in the coming years.

When many of us were growing up, once in a while our parents would take out a belt or a wooden paddle and give us a paddling on the behind when we did something wrong.

Was there anything wrong with that?

Of course not.

Yes, there is real child abuse that goes on out there, but in the vast majority of instances spanking does not do any lasting physical harm. Rather, it benefits the child because it helps them learn what is right and what is wrong.

I know that when I got a licking on the behind as a child that helped me to remember not to do the same thing again.

But Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi was absolutely horrified that some parents would actually use a wooden spoon to spank their little children when they misbehaved.

Perhaps that judge should actually try to spank someone with a wooden spoon some time. You simply cannot do much damage with a wooden spoon.

Instead of going after the parents who were doing the spanking, prosecutors chose to go after the pastor instead. They claimed that Caminiti was "the spoke in the wheel of this conspiracy".

Even after Caminiti leaves prison, he will be forbidden from having any contact with his old church....

Caminiti will be on extended supervision for six years after his release from prison. Despite objections on constitutional grounds by Caminiti's lawyers, Sumi ordered that he not have any contact with the Aleitheia Bible Church and have no leadership role in any church.

What in the world is happening to this country?

Criminal predators are literally eating the faces off of people, and yet authorities want to go after pastors that are encouraging their congregations to follow the teachings of the Bible?

Have we stepped into a really bizarre episode of The Twilight Zone?

Sadly, this is not the only example of how our free speech is under attack these days.

Up in New York, a new bill was recently introduced that would outlaw all "mean-spirited and baseless political attacks".

I think that would cover a whole lot of people that leave comments on my blog.

The following is how a recent article by Kurt Nimmo described what this new law would require....

New York state government is attempting to pass the measure in both the Senate and the Assembly. The legislation has been referred to the Codes Committee in the Senate, and the Government Operations Committee in the Assembly.

Both proposals are identical and would effect messages posted on message boards, blogs, social networks, and “any other discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages.” The law would require websites to post email addresses for “removal requests, clearly visible in any sections where comments are posted.” Those demanding the removal of content they find objectionable, however, would have their anonymity protected.

“Had the internet been around in the late 1700s, perhaps the anonymously written Federalist Papers would have to be taken down unless Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay revealed themselves,” notes David Kravets, writing for Wired.

Will we soon see laws such as this nationwide?

Will all blogs and websites soon be at the mercy of the politically correct police?

Up in Buffalo, New York it is apparently now against the law to hand out Christian tracts on a public sidewalk. At least that is what one man was told recently when he attempted to hand out tracts outside of an Italian heritage festival. The following is from a recent WorldNetDaily article....

While handing out tracts to willing recipients on a public street during a public festival, Owen was approached by a police officer who declined to identify himself but told him that the Buffalo Police Department is “the law” and he should stop handing out tracts.

According to the lawsuit: “Subsequently, another police officer, Officer Slomka, arrived on the scene. She quickly informed Owen that they could not hand out tracts in the festival and explained that the prohibition was ‘by our orders.’ Owen asked for her name, and she replied: ‘Slomka, write it down.’ Owen advised that he believed the tracts to be free speech; nonplussed, Officer Slomka reiterated that they couldn’t hand out tracts there and had to go outside of the festival area to continue with their expressive activity.”

Then, “Owen inquired as to whether they would be arrested if they continued to hand out tracts in the festival area, to which, Officer Slomka replied: ‘Yes.’”

That almost makes me angry enough to take a trip over to Buffalo and hand out tracts right outside the police station.

Even if you do not ever distribute literature, you should be alarmed at how our freedom of speech is being eroded.

The truth is that whenever anyone has their freedom of speech attacked it is an attack on all of us.

If we are not careful, we are going to end up just like Canada.

At one high school up in Canada recently, a student was suspended from school for a week for wearing a shirt with the following message....

"Life is wasted without Jesus"

The student was told that the shirt was "hate talk" and that he would be suspended for the rest of the year if he tried to wear it to school again.

They are coming for our free speech ladies and gentlemen.

They are not going to be satisfied until they have either shut all of us up or put all of us in prison.

It is imperative that we all stand up for free speech while we still can. Once our freedom of speech is gone, the loss of the rest of our freedoms will only be a matter of time.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: childabuse; cult; evilobamaregime; gestapotacts
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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It's said those who ignore history are bound to repeat it. Would this be an appropriate place to recommend reading "Foxes book of Martyrs"? (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22400/22400-h/22400-h.htm), or perhaps suggest reading about the accusation & trial of William Penn? Wasn't this settled by the 1st amendment?

The first order of business is to get rid of the usurping phony in the White Hut and then unplug, destroy everything that's not needed in the central socialist government. That should amaze even Weight Watchers! Close overseas military bases and bring all troops home to train and hold in reserve to defend this growingly pitiful nation! This spanking with a spoon thing is so far beyond the pale that it should scare the crap out of even the most hardened leftist voter who would vote for the scum ensconsed in the Oval Orifice.

1 posted on 06/01/2012 4:03:50 AM PDT by IbJensen
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To: IbJensen

Our society completely collapsed when we became the “mommy” society. The one in which bad behavior resulted in a painful experience has been replaced with hugs.

However, mother nature still has her laws. For example: grab hold of a live wasp nest. Bad idea...it will result in pain each and every time. Used to be that laws and household rules were the same way but now due to PC, sensitivity, feminized males and the physiological castration of males, we no longer punish anyone for bad behavior.


2 posted on 06/01/2012 4:11:33 AM PDT by DH (Once the tainted finger of government touches anything the rot begins)
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To: IbJensen; Hunton Peck; Diana in Wisconsin; P from Sheb; Shady; DonkeyBonker; Wisconsinlady; JPG; ...

Wisconsin judge attacks First Amendment — sends Pastor to jail for 2 years; forbids him from taking leadership role in any church.

This is the same judge who attacked Gov. Walker’s collective bargining law last year. http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/122657299.html

FReep Mail me if you want on, or off, this Wisconsin interest ping list.


3 posted on 06/01/2012 4:14:01 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: IbJensen

This is fricken unbelievable in America!!!


4 posted on 06/01/2012 4:15:19 AM PDT by wesagain (The God (Elohim) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the One True GOD.)
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To: IbJensen
Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi

This is the criminal that as been so involved in trying to advance the union position in the recalls,etc. She had major conflicts of interest in that immediate family members are members of the unions whose cause she attempted to advance.

5 posted on 06/01/2012 4:15:48 AM PDT by gusopol3
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To: IbJensen

Actually he taught that babies should be beaten with wooden sticks, not just spanked.

You can’t lead if the baby don’t bleed.


6 posted on 06/01/2012 4:20:18 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: IbJensen
If so, then you could be sent to prison. Sadly, that is exactly what happened to one pastor up in Wisconsin recently. A minister named Philip Caminiti was sentenced to 2 years in prison for simply teaching that parents should spank their children when they misbehave. Please note that Caminiti was not accused of spanking anyone or of physically hurting anyone.

********

Scary. What happened to free speech?

Is there anything else that a preacher/minister/priest/rabbi can say or teach that will put him in jail somewhere in the United States, especially when no one can force anyone to join that particular church and do what the preacher is teaching?

Can the preacher appeal his sentence?

7 posted on 06/01/2012 4:21:29 AM PDT by john mirse
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To: IbJensen
When I first read this earlier this morning, what came to mind (as I'm certain it did/will other Freepers) is how/why this Pastor can be charged and convicted or "Conspiracy" to preach violence against children by advocating corporal punishment.....

....YET, there is nary a word (much less a suggestion) that the HUNDREDS of "Imams" (and sundry other Islamic Officials) throughout the U.S. who advocate worst (the overthrow of our Republic; support Jihad against us; do not oppose honor killings, death for apostates; hatred towards Jews, Christians and all other Infidels, etc.) are given a pass and their "speech" is considered "Protected" under the 1st Amendment and moreso, due to their couching their Seditious/Traitorous Acts in terms of "Religous Freedom?"

How is it that a Christian Minister can be prosecuted and jailed and none of the Muslim Preachers are even allowed to be "monitored" for their actions?

The definition of Islam is "SUBMISSION" and ever more slowly they are succeeding (though their efforts at Stealth Jihad aided and abetted by our Dear Leader and members of his Regime) in gaining more power and control over our lives and working towards silencing those who oppose Sharia.

8 posted on 06/01/2012 4:23:20 AM PDT by Conservative Vermont Vet (l)
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To: AppyPappy

Source? He advocated beating children until they bleed?


9 posted on 06/01/2012 4:24:46 AM PDT by gusopol3
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To: IbJensen

It’s official.
We have no Constitution.
The Liberals have make the USA into the Soviet Union of the Cold war.
The first amendment is no more.


10 posted on 06/01/2012 4:24:46 AM PDT by BuffaloJack (End the racist, anti-capitalist Obama War On Freedom.)
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To: IbJensen

It’s official.
We have no Constitution.
The Liberals have make the USA into the Soviet Union of the Cold war.
The first amendment is no more.


11 posted on 06/01/2012 4:24:46 AM PDT by BuffaloJack (End the racist, anti-capitalist Obama War On Freedom.)
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To: IbJensen

Pastor Sentenced To 2 Years In Prison For Teaching That Parents Should Spank Their Children,

Actually that is incorrect. The Pastor was sentenced for multiple counts of child abuse, which is a crime even for a pastor.


12 posted on 06/01/2012 4:31:22 AM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I sign up for the New American Revolution and the Crusades 2012?)
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To: AppyPappy

ATI? Blanket training?


13 posted on 06/01/2012 4:33:41 AM PDT by kalee (The offenses we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: DH

And soon they’ll be coming for those who preach that homosexuality is an abomination.


14 posted on 06/01/2012 4:56:26 AM PDT by FES0844
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To: IbJensen

SHEBOYGAN, Wis. (WHBL) - Telling his church members they should use wooden rods to spank their infants and toddlers earns a former pastor in Black Earth a two-year prison sentence. Philip Caminiti was found guilty of eight counts of conspiracy to commit child abuse. He had told members of Aleitheia Bible Church those children were not too young to be hit as a way to teach them to behave. Caminiti told investigators his advice followed biblical teachings. After he serves his two-year sentence he won’t be allowed to have contact with that church or have any leadership role in any church.


15 posted on 06/01/2012 4:58:49 AM PDT by sonofagun (Some think my cynicism grows with age. I like to think of it as wisdom!)
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To: P-Marlowe

Ping....any way to look up the facts on this case?


16 posted on 06/01/2012 4:59:18 AM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: IbJensen; AppyPappy; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet; gusopol3; SECURE AMERICA; sonofagun
Obviously there is more to this story than is posted above:

Caminiti’s charges allege that two of the children beaten by followers of his doctrine were only two months old. When the beatings were stopped by authorities in 2010, the oldest victim was only five years old. Ironically, the pastor was well aware that the punishments were illegal and instructed congregants to never strike their children while out in public. He never personally participated in carrying out the abuse himself.
Caminiti’s brother, John, pleaded guilty last year to causing mental harm to a child and two counts of child abuse. He was sentenced to a year in prison and eight years of probation. Several members of Caminiti’s family are also facing child abuse charges.

Pastor Who Preached Infants Should Be Beaten Convicted Of Child Abuse

17 posted on 06/01/2012 5:04:08 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet
Judge Sumi refused to drop the charges, saying that although she believes Caminiti possesses "a sincerely held religious belief," the Christian pastor failed to show the court how the state's child abuse statute "places a burden on his sincerely held religious belief."

You write . . . "How is it that a Christian Minister can be prosecuted and jailed and none of the Muslim Preachers are even allowed to be "monitored" for their actions?"

That is exactly what I am thinking!

Also we speak an OPINION that is contrary to state law . . . WE CAN GO TO JAIL??

Uhmmmm maybe the liberals and Karl Marx is correct afterall. Good for a country to have a revolution once in awhile. Ready to rumble? http://global.christianpost.com/news/wisc-pastor-pleas-religious-freedom-in-child-abuse-case-judge-denies-motion-75011/

18 posted on 06/01/2012 5:04:43 AM PDT by saywhatagain
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To: IbJensen
SOURCE LINK

...The children often were punished when they cried or failed to sit still during church services, a former church member told authorities. "Phil was very strict about children being quiet during church," the complaint states.

John Caminiti told investigators in November that he does not allow his family to communicate with people outside his religious beliefs and has punished his wife and son by confining them to their rooms until they corrected their disobedience, according to the Wisconsin State Journal...

-----------

it always pays to look a little further....

Philip Caminiti, left, the pastor of Aleitheia Bible Church in Black Earth, Wis., and his brother, John Caminiti, 45, have been charged with a dozen counts of child abuse for allegedly using wooden rods to punish children.

19 posted on 06/01/2012 5:06:12 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (fair dinkum!)
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To: IbJensen; AppyPappy; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet; gusopol3; SECURE AMERICA; sonofagun
He sounds like a psycho who was abused himself:

During his testimony, Caminiti denied recommending using a rod on a child as young as two months old, but offered a different answer during a prosecutor's cross examination.
Do you also recall telling the detectives that a child could be a few months old and be worthy of the rod?” Assistant Dane County District Attorney Shelly Rusch asked.
“I remember saying that,” Caminiti testified
.....
Caminiti testified the presence of bruises on a child was not an indication discipline had gone too far

Pastor offers contradictory testimony in child abuse trial

I don't just believe the title of every post here.

20 posted on 06/01/2012 5:11:46 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: john mirse
"Is there anything else that a preacher/minister/priest/rabbi can say or teach that will put him in jail ..."

well, I wouldn't criticize the White House resident out loud. <sarcasm>

21 posted on 06/01/2012 5:28:12 AM PDT by chainsaw (Sarah Palin is still my first choice to save the USA. . .)
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To: wesagain

I am glad the freak is going to jail....of course you did not read the story.


22 posted on 06/01/2012 5:39:07 AM PDT by napscoordinator
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To: SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins
Actually that is incorrect. The Pastor was sentenced for multiple counts of child abuse, which is a crime even for a pastor.

No you are incorrect. He didn't spank anybody. He advised his congregation to use either a wooden spoon or a dowel to spank their children and since some of them apparently did, the pastor was the one who was charged. The parents who may have "abused" their children were given immunity to testify against the pastor.

The Bible teaches that to spare the rod is to spoil the child. Apparently if you believe that proverb or if you read it aloud in public, then you can be sent to prison.

23 posted on 06/01/2012 6:13:17 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: IbJensen

IF he told people to beat INFANTS, he was calling for child abuse. It is hard enough to know what is going on, without conservatives (Right Side News) lying or misleading. I expect the left to do this. Would be nice if the right did not act like the left.


24 posted on 06/01/2012 6:15:36 AM PDT by PghBaldy
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

When Caminiti has served his sentence he should get on GoogTube and start posting videos of what he is teaching, the legal hell he went through as a result of it, and also do a comparison of how things are done in the Islamic world both abroad and right here in America.


25 posted on 06/01/2012 6:19:02 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: FES0844; xzins
And soon they’ll be coming for those who preach that homosexuality is an abomination.

Indeed. To tell a child (i.e. anyone under 18) that their sexual preference is a sin would be mental abuse and the government will not tolerate anyone telling a child they are a sinner.

26 posted on 06/01/2012 6:23:19 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: gusopol3

Source:

The charges alleged that two of the children involved were just 2 months old when discipline was advocated by Caminiti. The oldest child was 5 when the practice was stopped after police intervened in November 2010.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_6ce4663e-7395-11e1-8bf4-001871e3ce6c.html#ixzz1wY6CmBOd


27 posted on 06/01/2012 6:43:51 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: napscoordinator

“I am glad the freak is going to jail....of course you did not read the story.”

I agree...he is one sick bustard. Beating a 2 month old infant with a wooden stick is beyond the pale.


28 posted on 06/01/2012 6:47:03 AM PDT by Dudoight
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To: SECURE AMERICA

The Pastor was sentenced for multiple counts of child abuse, which is a crime even for a pastor.


If that preacher was doing “child abuse” by giving the little farts “the board of education” then all of my teachers (men and women) back in the 50’s and 60’s should be rounded up and placed into a “child abuse concentration camp” for all of the butts they spanked back in those days...including mine....many, many times.

Oh. I forgot, back in those days most children had manners and obeyed the rules and laws. Now-days, without any discipline they don’t...just get “time outs.”


29 posted on 06/01/2012 6:48:41 AM PDT by DH (Once the tainted finger of government touches anything the rot begins)
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To: P-Marlowe; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; AppyPappy; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
RE :”The Bible teaches that to spare the rod is to spoil the child. Apparently if you believe that proverb or if you read it aloud in public, then you can be sent to prison.

You should get your-facts straight before defending something.

He advised parents to beat their children as young as a few months old with a wooden spoon (he first denied this and then admitted say this on the stand) and that bruises were NOT and indication that the beatings went too far. He also knew that this activity was illegal and advised parents to do it out of the sight of witnesses. His own brother was convicted of child abuse.

This demented psycho was probably abused himself at a young age and maybe we can pity him, but I would no more defend him I would than a father who rapes his own son.

30 posted on 06/01/2012 6:50:22 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: IbJensen
I want to see the actual case before I comment. I saw a News story here but it still really didn't say what caused a conviction. I think the key for it is probably the "2 months" part.
31 posted on 06/01/2012 6:54:17 AM PDT by Darren McCarty (The Republican Party is bigger than the presidency.)
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To: Fred Nerks
Now THAT makes more sense than the tripe here or in the Madison article for that matter.
32 posted on 06/01/2012 6:58:29 AM PDT by Darren McCarty (The Republican Party is bigger than the presidency.)
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To: Darren McCarty
RE :”I want to see the actual case before I comment. I saw a News story here but it still really didn't say what caused a conviction. I think the key for it is probably the “2 months” part.

He is a demented psycho, see : 17 and #20

33 posted on 06/01/2012 7:06:54 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: IbJensen

The crime was Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Conspiracy to Commit. So it looks like it is illegal to advocate spanking. Free speech is dead.

State of Wisconsin vs. Philip B Caminiti
Dane County Case Number 2011CF000479
Charge(s)/Sentence(s)
Charge Detail
The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
1 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 12-31-2008 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Defendant is not eligible for the Substance Abuse Program. Defendant is not eligible for the Challenge Incarceration Program.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Restitution DA has 90 days to prepare/submit order.
Costs $113 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections. All outstanding financial obligations shall be paid at the rate of 25% of the prison wages and work release funds. The balance remaining at release from prison be paid as a condition of extended supervision or parole at a rate determined by the supervising agent.
Psych treatment Psychiatric/psychological evaluation as deemed appropriate by agent and treatment as recommended. Exam by Dr. James Gerndt.
Prohibitions Defendant shall not have any contact, direct or indirect, with Aleitheia Bible Church or any of its members except for his immediate family, children & grandchildren. Not have any leadership position in any church. No physical discipline of any child or counseling on physical discipline. No possession of any rods and/or dowels that may be used for physical discipline of children.
Other Complete a course in child development. Defendant advised of requirement to provide DNA sample - surcharge waived. Any other conditions DOC, Probation/Parole Department may impose.

The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
2 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 11-29-2010 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Cts 2-8 are concur with each other but consec to ct 1.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Costs $268 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections.
Other All other conditions are the same as count 1.

The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
3 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 11-29-2010 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Same as ct 2.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Costs $268 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections.
Other All other conditions are the same as count 1.

The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
4 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 10-31-2010 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Same as ct 2.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Costs $268 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections.
Other All other conditions are the same as count 1.

The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
5 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 11-21-2010 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Same as ct 2.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Costs $268 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections.
Other All other conditions are the same as count 1.

The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
6 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 11-29-2010 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Same as ct 2.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Costs $268 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections.
Other All other conditions are the same as count 1.

The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
7 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 11-29-2010 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Same as ct 2.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Costs $268 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections.
Other All other conditions are the same as count 1.

The Defendant was charged with the following offense:
Count No. Statute Cite Description Severity Offense Date Plea
8 948.03(2)(b) Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm Felony H 11-19-2010 Not Guilty on 06-29-2011
Charge Modifier(s)
Statute Cite Description
939.31 Conspiracy to Commit

On 03-21-2012 there was a finding of:
Action Court Official
Found Guilty at Jury Trial Sumi, Maryann

On 05-25-2012 the following was ordered:
Sentence Time Begin Date Notes
State prison 1 Years Same as ct 2.
Extended Supervision 3 Years
Condition Time Notes
Costs $268 to be collected by the Dept of Corrections.
Other All other conditions are the same as count 1.

From the court records All charges are Conspiracy to Commit Child Abuse-Intentionally Cause Harm So thaey are saying that his advocating spanking is a crime. Now it is against the law to talk.


Return to Case 2011CF000479
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34 posted on 06/01/2012 7:23:38 AM PDT by Ratman83
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To: Ratman83

Link

http://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetails.do;jsessionid=700EEF1157C1B93AE3153C2BDF0CBEB6.render6?countyNo=13&caseNo=2011CF000479&cacheId=C2D55EC2366F3E790EB5F42FCEB67613&recordCount=1&offset=0&mode=charges


35 posted on 06/01/2012 7:28:28 AM PDT by Ratman83
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To: sickoflibs; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; AppyPappy; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet
You should get your-facts straight before defending something.

Ok lets get the "facts" straight.

First of all, is this pastor a psycho? Probably. But there is an axiom in the law that "hard cases make bad law." I think this is one of them.

Fact: Does the Bible admonish parents to use a "rod" to discipline their children? Answer: Yes.

Did the pastor believe this proverb? Yes

Did the pastor teach this proverb? Answer: Yes

Does Wisconsin law prohibit the use of a "rod" to discipline a child? Answer: I suspect it does, but I also expect that it depends. This is a gray area. Apparently if it causes any kind of bruising then probably.

Was the Pastor accused of actually using a "rod" on any child? Answer: No.

Did the parishioners follow the biblical mandate to use a rod to discipline their children? Answer: Apparently so.

Did the pastor advise the parents to use the rod with such viciousness that it could actually cause harm to the child? Answer: It does not appear to be so, but we aren't really privy.

Who administered the rod on the children? Answer: the parents?

Were the parents charged? Answer: apparently but they were given immunity to testify against the pastor? So in essence the parents were relived of any liability for their own actions as long as they were willing to point their finger at the pastor.

Does this case set a bad precedent? Answer: you bet it does.

Did your parents ever spank you? Would your parents have been guilty of a crime in Wisconsin?

Will this case eventually be used to prohibit anyone from advocating that parents tell their children that homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God? Answer: Undoubtedly. It is already a criminal offense in Canada.

36 posted on 06/01/2012 8:55:49 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: BuffaloJack
Agreed. However, illogical decisions are not just confined to loony liberal places like Madison, Wisconsin. In Texas, an honors student was sentenced to a day in prison because of too many unexcused absences, caused by her missing too much school, caused by her need to work in order to support her family. The judge relented, after the case went viral through the Internet and over $100K was raised in the student's defense. Furthermore, look at the hundreds of small, conservative towns, in all parts of the country, that use speed traps as revenue raisers. Or for that matter, big liberal cities.

The Wisconsin case was particularly egregious, but both liberals and conservatives regularly flout the Constitution and the concept of limited government, one in the name of "social justice", the other in the name of "law 'n' order."

37 posted on 06/01/2012 9:13:48 AM PDT by Wallace T.
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To: P-Marlowe

Problem. The Bible doesn’t say to strike the child with the rod.


38 posted on 06/01/2012 9:40:31 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: P-Marlowe; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; AppyPappy; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
RE :”Did the pastor believe this proverb? Yes, Did the pastor teach this proverb? Answer: Yes...Did your parents ever spank you?

If my parents beat me with a spoon until I was bruised when I was two months old I wouldnt have specific memories of it but would probably have the emotional scars that this demented psycho does (he was probably abused similarly) as well as all of his defenseless child victims. Preaching to others to break the law in private (so there are no witnesses) like he did is clearly against the law and should be.

If you believe that the Bible directs us to behave in such a way then I can't help you, but don't expect sympathy from a jury because the US Constitution doesnt protect this.

39 posted on 06/01/2012 9:57:48 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: AppyPappy; sickoflibs; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
Problem. The Bible doesn’t say to strike the child with the rod.

LOL!

The bible clearly delineates between the "rod" which was used to provide corporal punishment and the "staff" which is used to gently lead someone in the right direction.

To say that the Bible does not say to strike the child with the rod is ludicrous. To simply say that correcting a child verbally is using the rod is clearly a stretch since Proverbs 29:15 states that it is necessary to use BOTH the Rod AND reproof to impart wisdom.

Now there is no commandment to use a rod (i.e. physical punishment), but there is an admonishment to do so and there is a warning that the man who refuses to use the rod HATES his son.

These are the facts of the Bible. You can ignore them and even twist the scriptures to show some alternate meaning. But the meaning of this passage is as old as the bible itself and only in the last half century has anyone tried to pretend that the verses about using the rod to correct a child does not mean actually striking the child with the rod.

Wisconsin is free to outlaw striking the children with any object including an open palm. But that does not mean that the Bible did not teach that using such a method for correction and imparting wisdom was not only acceptable but advised.

So the question is now whether it is a felony to read these verses out loud in Wisconsin? If some parishioner takes these verses as a license to beat their child, then it would appear that the pastor who taught this as a biblical truth could be convicted of a felony.

This is a bad precedent. Not unexpected. But certainly bad.

40 posted on 06/01/2012 10:02:38 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: P-Marlowe; AppyPappy
RE :”So the question is now whether it is a felony to read these verses out loud in Wisconsin? If some parishioner takes these verses as a license to beat their child, then it would appear that the pastor who taught this as a biblical truth could be convicted of a felony.
This is a bad precedent. Not unexpected. But certainly bad.

BS, he knew what he was advising was illegal because he told them to never do it in public where there would be witnesses. If I was on the jury I would have had no problem convicting him.

This is no 'precedent'. Conspiracy is against the law even if you are a preacher.

41 posted on 06/01/2012 10:16:11 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: sickoflibs; AppyPappy; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet
BS, he knew what he was advising was illegal because he told them to never do it in public where there would be witnesses. If I was on the jury I would have had no problem convicting him. This is no 'precedent'. Conspiracy is against the law even if you are a preacher.

So you are "sick of libs" but you are perfectly OK with laws that make spanking a child a felony?

And you are also perfectly OK with laws that make preaching the biblical mandate that spanking is a necessary part of parenting a felony conspiracy should parishioners heed such biblical advice?

Sick of libs? I think not. I think you are one of them.

42 posted on 06/01/2012 10:39:15 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: P-Marlowe; AppyPappy; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet
RE :”So you are “sick of libs” but you are perfectly OK with laws that make spanking a child a felony?

I am perfectly OK with laws against conspiracy to commit serious (evil) crimes like these in secret. I am perfectly OK with outlawing YOU beating your two months old with a spoon until they bruise, and advising you to do it in private so no witnesses can report you, or those giving you advise on how to do it and get away with it.

RE :”Sick of libs? I think not. I think you are one of them.

What are you Sadomasochistic child molester like the pervert you are defending? I am ‘sick-of-sicko’s making idiot arguments defending perverts.

43 posted on 06/01/2012 10:51:40 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: sickoflibs; AppyPappy; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet
What are you Sadomasochistic child molester like the pervert you are defending? I am ‘sick-of-sicko’s making idiot arguments defending perverts.

This is why it is so difficult to reason with liberals and people who think like liberals. You are reacting emotionally to this case rather than viewing it from a logical and impassioned perspective. If a parent were to abuse a two month old, there are clearly laws against that and the parents should be prosecuted. However this case sets a bad precedent in that the defendant did not actually abuse any child, but in his capacity as a pastor gave biblical counsel to parents (albeit probably bad biblical counsel) to utilize a "rod" in the correction of their children.

In essence this is historically sound biblical advice. If the parents were to "beat" a child to where it is harmed, then there are laws protecting that child which do not interfere with the right of a parent not only to use reasonable means of correction but to exercise their freedom of religion in the upbringing of their children.

In this case this pastor did not personally use a spoon or a dowel against any child. The question then becomes whether giving biblical counsel to people that confirms the Bible's clear admonition to parents to use methods of corporeal punishment to correct their children and impart wisdom is a criminal act of conspiracy when a parent takes that advice or perhaps misconstrues that advice as a mandate to beat the hell out of their two month old. In any case where such corporeal punishment causes harm to the child, the person causing such harm should be prosecuted. But there is a line between using corporeal punishment which "imparts wisdom" and that which actually causes physical harm. Whether the parents went over that line was not really addressed in this case as far as I can tell since the parents were not prosecuted. The pastor was prosecuted for conspiracy to commit whatever crime the parents might have committed.

While this pastor may be a certifiable psycho the precedent set here is dangerous.

Preach the gospel, go to jail.

Is it too far of a stretch to assume that ultimately telling a child that their homosexual tendencies are wrong and the homosexuality is an abomination before God will be considered "Child Abuse" and that preachers will be going to jail for preaching this biblical truth? I think not.

So can you tell me if your parents ever spanked you? If so, would you testify against them in a court in order to send them to prison?

44 posted on 06/01/2012 11:18:43 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: P-Marlowe; AppyPappy; SECURE AMERICA; IbJensen; xzins; john mirse; Conservative Vermont Vet
RE :”This is why it is so difficult to reason with liberals and people who think like liberals. You are reacting emotionally to this case rather than viewing it from a logical and impassioned perspective. If a parent were to abuse a two month old, there are clearly laws against that and the parents should be prosecuted. However this case sets a bad precedent in that the defendant did not actually abuse any child, but in his capacity as a pastor gave biblical counsel to parents (albeit probably bad biblical counsel) to utilize a “rod” in the correction of their children.

How dense are you? You admit that these parents he advised CLEARLY broke the law, and he clearly advised them to do in the details of the crime in secret, and yet you still argue that his act in the conspiracy to commit the crimes against infants should be legal. HE DIDN'T JUST QUOTE THE BIBLE. He SPECIFICALLY told them beating two months old out of the view of witnesses so they bruise was what the Bible instructed.

If a preacher tells someone to poke out his wife's eyes as punishment IN SECRET claiming that he got it from the Bible, that does NOT make it legal for him to advise her to do so. But your idiotic argument says it is.

You really have to be sick to defend such horrific actions, if you are even serious. And you calling those who oppose them a liberal means nothing,it's just standard crackpot behavior

If a women gets an abortion doctor to kill her baby does that mean the woman is innocent because she only asked for it? STUPID!!

45 posted on 06/01/2012 11:43:16 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: P-Marlowe
Do you also condone stoning children who are rebellious? See Deut. 21
46 posted on 06/01/2012 11:43:22 AM PDT by Alistair Stratford IV (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: sickoflibs

” He SPECIFICALLY told them beating two months old out of the view of witnesses so they bruise was what the Bible instructed.”

Then he is a lunatic!


47 posted on 06/01/2012 12:16:19 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: sickoflibs

You know if the child abuse was so bad why is only the pastor being tried, what about the actual abuser?


48 posted on 06/01/2012 12:21:24 PM PDT by Ratman83
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To: stephenjohnbanker
RE ” He SPECIFICALLY told them beating two months old out of the view of witnesses so they bruise was what the Bible instructed.
.....
Then he is a lunatic!”

This came out in the trial.

The problem we have here is that a few just like to read the title of the post and believe it without even looking at the actual case.

I was suspicious immediately and dug up a couple of sources that actually have some details, rather than trust that title; unlike a few others that want it to be true just so they can post more Chicken Little endless drama declaring the end of the world . The title is BS as the discription in the post.

49 posted on 06/01/2012 12:25:52 PM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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To: Ratman83
RE :”You know if the child abuse was so bad why is only the pastor being tried, what about the actual abuser?

Where did you read that?

He wasnt just accused of it, he admitted giving that advice on the stand. Amazing he even testified,

50 posted on 06/01/2012 12:30:31 PM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is a liberal. Just watch him closely try to screw us.)
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