The cleaning lady vacuumed the ashtrays...
Posted on 06/06/2012 3:20:37 PM PDT by moonshot925
(Reuters) - A fire that caused an estimated $400 million in damage to a U.S. Navy nuclear-powered submarine docked in Maine may have been caused by a vacuum cleaner, authorities said on Wednesday.
The fire in the forward compartment - which includes crew living, command and control spaces and the torpedo room - of the USS Miami on May 23 took about 12 hours to extinguish and injured seven firefighters.
"Preliminary findings indicate the fire started in a vacuum cleaner used to clean work sites at end of shift, and stored in an unoccupied space," the shipyard's public affairs office said in a release. Specific details are still being evaluated.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
That sucks.
Was the vacume bought at costco and made in china?
” That sucks. “
I guess somebody had to say it...
(Thankfully, you did before I could... ;))
What burns in a sub?? 400 million damage WTF?
It surely wasn’t a rebuilt Electrolux. Those keep going almost forever, and if something should happen the motors don’t have cheap plastic housings that can catch fire.
Id love to see the damage takeoff sheet
Probably sucked up a lit cigarette butt...
Indeed, what was burning in such quantity? Obviously, sub designers need to re-think what goes into one.
Gotta type fast.
I was afraid someone else would beat me to it. :-P
The problem is not what was damaged, although that is a significant cost...the problem is the cost of essentially gutting the forward part of the ship, down to the bare inside of the hull, and then rebuilding it almost from scratch. From stripping and replacing hull insulation, to replacing ALL electrical cables, to replacing ventilation, hydraulics, and all manner of other systems and their required infrastructure, this is a HUGE task.
I say SCRAP IT! That’s one LESS submarine which makes 0bama happy.
Same thing that can burn elsewhere like equipment, insulation, paint on the bulkhead, plastic, circuit boards, swabs, lots of things. Fire is possible on any ship. There is no fire proof ship and fire onboard ship is a serious danger. That is why prevention is taken so serious.
I knew a Damage Control Assistant {DCA} a Lt Commander in rank who cut no one any slack on things like electrical inspection safety tags. No not even the Admiral was immune from his wrath. His solution for not having an inspection sticker was simple. He cut the cord.
A replacement would be many years away. The loss of the Miami would mean the rest of the fleet has to pick up the slack. The operational tempo of a SSN is already hell on the crew...if Miami is scrapped things will just be that much worse.
I have too much compassion for my fellow bubble heads to subject them to that. Even at the expense of making Obozo frown.
I thought they did fire drills til they were blue in the face.
They do believe me I know I was a nozzle-man. They have the drills so you are ready. The drill doesn't prevent the fire though. Safety walk throughs do sometimes but still not always.
I'll give you an idea of a possibility. The vacuum cleaner may have had some issues in the motor winding and went unnoticed as it was put away. After being stowed it smolders and ignites the motor housing. The motor housing burns and other things begin to catch fire. Here is where it gets difficult and dangerous. If the compartment was air tight or close to it a good size fire could erupt then die down to a large smolder. It might even go unnoticed but in the mean time heat from inside that compartment transferred to the next compartment through the walls. I've seen it happen before two decks above a fire and another fire erupts.
Finally someone smells smoke. When you smell smoke on a ship you call Fire and then try to locate the space. You do not simply go opening doors. You place the back of your hand on the hatch or door. If it's hot your hand feels it and jerks away from the heat. You do not open that hatch or door until a hose team is suited up and the nozzles spraying or ready to spray. The sudden influx of oxygen into an oxygen starved fire can mean a serious flash happens. The fire literally goes from smoldering to hell in seconds in those conditions.
You have to always keep in the back of your mind that you do not know the oxygen level of any given space in a fire. For that reason after a fire is put out you still are in a fire fighting posture until that space has been checked for oxygen and explosive gas and the fire is overhauled.
The Navy has already decided to repair USS Miami for a cost of $400 million.
The LA class boats can get 10 to 20 years of life after Engineered Refueling Overhaul (ERO).
USS Miami could be in service until the early 2030’s.
Well worth the money.
And look at it this way...not only will Miami be refueled and ready to go for up to another 2 decades, she will be going back to sea with the latest and greatest technologies that can be fitted within her hull design.
The boat was in overhaul in the shipyard. The crew wasn't even onboard except for a below decks watch, a topside watch and whatever the nukes do in a cold-iron shutdown. Normal systems could have been tagged out or even missing during this period. This kind of fire would never happen at sea.
Was it a Dyson?
or a Hoover?
With the ongoing lack of will in congress to fund stepping up the Virginia class builds yea this is likely for the best. It's bad news though when even loosing one ship can put significant load on others to take up the slack. It's PP Planning and a dangerous plan. You have to have a causality cushion and today's numbers don't allow for such.
This reminds me of the time my sainted mom-in-law BROKE HER ARM vacuuming. She fell backwards over her coffee table.
I told hubby - you see - this whole cleaning thing is dangerous!
Both Houses of Congress and both parties are falling all over themselves to restore the second FY-14 boat in the shipbuilding plan. I don't know if there is a defense acquisition with more support.
What you said in addition to possible issues with the pressure hull - warping, heat-fatigue/fracturing, etc.
They’ll likely be taking samples from suspect areas of pressure hull for testing. If necessary, it’s not too difficult to cut out and replace small sections of the hull. Of course they will be taking out large hull cuts on the top of the boat to facilitate clean out and rebuilding.
Do they have fire sprinklers on ships?
Back in the old days, they just covered everything with asbestos. Can’t do that now.
They need to start falling at a faster rate all over themselves. We’ve been below 60 on subs since 1999 and in the low 50’s since 2002. We’re down 50% on modern subs from 1987 that’s too deep a cut even with the technology increases. BTW the buil up need isn’t just limited to subs. The rate they are going at now won’t likely even keep pace with the decom rate.
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org9-4.htm#1993
Some ships have fire suppression systems, yes. Every kitchen on a ship, even submarines, has some kind of fire suppression system over the grills and in the exhaust stacks.
Other than that, no sprinklers on a boat. That’s why we have watchstanders both underway and in port. Every accessible space is checked at least every hour, if not more. It’s their job to find a fire (if one exists), and sound the alarm as quickly as possible.
And, BTW, NO asbestos installed on ships anymore. There may be some on very old ships (carriers). Which is why when they install new insulation, it is first painted red, before it’s painted its’ finished coat. The read undercoat indicates that the contained insulation is NOT asbestos.
60 SSNs is right at replacement rate. Boats last about 30 years and are currently being built at 2 a year. I would say we need no less than 70 boats...there has to be some level of flexibility, for things just like what happened to Miami.
And with China becoming more aggressive, and there’s simply no slack anymore.
Many of the Block I LA class boats were retied early because they were not needed.
The time it takes to build a Block II Virginia class boat is much faster than Block I thanks to construction simplification.
Block I:
USS Virginia (SSN-774) 47 months
USS Texas (SSN-775) 33 months
USS Hawaii (SSN-776) 33 months
USS North Carolina (SSN-777) 35 months
Block II:
USS New Hampshire (SSN-778) 10 months
USS New Mexico (SSN-779) 9 months
USS Missouri (SSN-780) 14 months
USS California (SSN-781) 18 months
USS Mississippi (SSN-782)18 months
We were able to pull from behind strength wise in WW2 because our manufacturing infrastructure was there in almost all aspects and in multiple venues if needed. We don't have that luxury now even in non nuclear defense production. I just don't think China is going to process our needed steel or especially fuel if we came under attack. Not to mention you just don't go hire experiences ship builders off the street much less ones capable of building boats. It's the old saying practice makes perfect.
Which is why I believe we need at least some modern diesel boats...far cheaper to build, easier to man, and could relieve nucs in territorial waters.
We were stationed there recently and my wife had to deal with those unions. Since it appears that the fire was created by a few boneheaded civilian union employees, she figures that three Navy officers (the yard commander, the engineering commander and the safety person) will be fired, have their careers ruined and wind up getting retired early and two union guys will get placed somewhere else on the yard as “punishment” until the union has them reinstated.
oh, and not to mention the scores of Navy personnel in the chain that will be denied promotions and held out of better billets and treated as lepers because this will be forever on their fitrep. Not to mention the half a billion it’ll cost the taxpayers all because, based on what we know so far, a few union guys were too lazy and didn’t want to carry the vac off the boat because the act of moving the vac up and out was not in their job description.
I'm sure I'll be ridiculed for this but I believe we need at least two or more conventional CV's as well. Nukes have their indisputable advantages but so does conventional. Conventional Plants offers a quicker training & qualification timeframe & for the Propulsion crew. You can take a guy out of Basic and put him in The Hole no schools needed. It's OJT for a lot of guys.
Nuke Propulsion crews are cream of the crop. It's tough or it was tough to get through the school and it should be so. I know a guy who is a Math professor who didn't make it through. I also knew another guy who was a genius but also an impulsive screw up with no common sense who thankfully washed out. Both guys were in my shop LOL.
The USA has a massive technological advantage over China thanks to automation. American factories are the most efficient in the world.
In 2010, the USA manufactured $1.855 Trillion with 11.5 million workers.
In 2010, China produced 1.922 Trillion with 120 million workers.
The efficiency of American manufacturing keeps increasing at an exponential rate. We are able to produce more goods with less workers. Labor costs are rising in China and the growth rate is slowing down.
“I believe we need at least two or more conventional CV’s as well”
That is not going to happen. Nuclear plants are needed because of the of the power they produce. Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System(EMALS), railguns, free electron lasers, dynamic armor and other future upgrades require large sums of power that only a nuclear reactor like the A1B on the Gerald R. Ford class can provide.
In WW2 we had our own steel, sewed our own uniforms, made our own weapons and ammo, made our own vehicles, and processed our own chemicals. I think you can understand what I'm saying. If we rely on any foreign nation to supply for our defense production we are screwed.
Most steel mills are gone as are most Textile and chemical processing companies. These are National Security issues. If any nation can cut our supplies like our fuel then they control us. BTW you have to figure into the manufacturing equation such things as Mr Buffets mobile home manufacturing company. It's what we are manufacturing that also matters.
It seems we found a design flaw in the construction of the ship. The overflow vent for the contaminated AVGAS tank was in the main engine room. It was SUPPOSED to overflow into the bilges to be pumped overseas while underway. BUT it was over the main engine. On this day, it overflowed and rained AVGAS on to the main engine. Huge fire. Dead in the water for several hours. Smoke throughout the whole ship before the ventilation system was shut down. Very scary time. Had to go back to Sasebo for repairs when limited power was finally restored.
“Where liberty dwells, there is my country." –Benjamin Franklin
I know it's not going to happen. Putting all the eggs in one basket can be a huge mistake. Granted there are some smaller carriers LHA conventional that can carry vertical launch and landing aircraft.
Now war is war. In war targets get hit even carriers. We know this from WW2. We also know from the 1960's they can suffer mass causalities from events on the ship itself. It takes roughly a year and a half to get a Nuke Snipe from enlistment to first ship or boat. War doesn't wait for training nor does mass causalities.
Too many assets are being put at risk with poor planning like homeporting all East Coast Carriers CVN's out of one port. Worse the east coast maintenance yard is there as well. One lucky hit in war could take out our entire carrier building capabilities, a good chunk of the carriers possibly, the maintenance yard, and half of our sub building program. This remains uncorrected by the same clowns who believe we still need more downsizing.
I'm highly skeptical of EMALS. I got a question for you. How fast can electricity travel? 186,000 MPS right? The instant it is shut off it is not there. There is no in between. However 1200 PSI of steam on the other hand is there and you know it's there. It's a sure bet. That's something to ponder on. One of the things I recall on the ship was the blackouts from where a generator suddenly tripped off line.
Some design flaws never get corrected. We had one pump room back at the aft chow line that would take your head off the fumes were so bad at times. Chow line was 2nd deck the pump room was 6th deck. Sure enough sometime in late 1980 it blew up killing two ABF’s.
Most manufacturing companies in the USA are American. Exxon Mobil, Chevron, General Electric, Ford, Chrysler, Intel, Texas Instruments, IBM, Apple, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, United Technologies, General Dynamics, Boeing, DuPont, Alcoa, Caterpillar, Coca-Cola, Et Cetera
You will find many more foreign owned companies in China than in the USA. We do not rely on other nations for defense production. In 2010 we exported 8,641 million of arms and imported 893 million. All US military hardware must be made in the USA with US materials.
China is MUCH more dependent on foreign defense production than the USA. The new Chinese CV, Shi Lang, was an incomplete Soviet hulk that was sold to China in 1998.
“I’m highly skeptical of EMALS”
EMALS has many advantages over steam catapults. It offers 29% greater launch energy, occupies less space, is easier to control, requires less maintenance and manpower, is more reliable, provides less ‘wear and tear’ on carrier-based aircraft and it can launch UAVs.
“They’ll likely be taking samples from suspect areas of pressure hull for testing. If necessary, it’s not too difficult to cut out and replace small sections of the hull. Of course they will be taking out large hull cuts on the top of the boat to facilitate clean out and rebuilding.”
Of course they will. I only mentioned it because no one else did.
BTW wasn't there a ruckus raised a few years back about Marine one? Where were the rotors & main fuselage sections to be made? What about the recent outing of China chips in our defense systems? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2888925/posts Not a smart defense policy at all. China doesn't need to come over here and invade when we give them the means to knock us to our knees in technology espionage.
Just a question for sub folks.
Has anyone considered Halon dispensers, like the M1 Abrams have?
Over the past 7 years some counterfit elctronic parts have managed to get into the supply chain. I can explain the situation.
The contractors aren’t buying these chips to cut corners. They absolutely believe they are buying legitimate parts. So how does this happen?
Most of the time I’ve seen this, the contractor is dealing with obsolete part issues. With significantly longer design cycles and much longer field life than consumer electronics, it’s not uncommon to see ICs go obsolete during a products production. It then becomes a question of finding the parts from alternative sources rather than the mfr, or spending tons of money to redesign the product, and then spending likely 10X that re-qualifying it. Government agents usually authorize buying from distribution and as a last resort.....brokers. Legitimate brokers buy excess inventory from many companies and then sell it at inflated rates.
The NDAA for Fiscal Year 2013 has a requirement that all contractors must established a counterfeit avoidance/detection system approved by the DOD.
This should prevent counterfit parts from getting into the supply chain.
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