Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Storm Warning: The Gloomy Forecast for EMPs
The Foundry (Heritage Foundation) ^ | July 6, 2012 | Jessica Zuckerman

Posted on 07/07/2012 7:41:45 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Almost a week after the D.C. area was pummeled with raging storms, many individuals are still suffering in the July heat without lights, phone lines, and, perhaps most importantly, air conditioning.

In the immediate aftermath of this event, tens of thousands of Washingtonians, Marylanders, and Virginians were left without power. Storms across the country had similar effects, and Americans from Richmond to Detroit are still facing the summer heat without many basic comforts.

As awful as this is, things could be even worse. Imagine for a moment that that the power never came back on.

(Excerpt) Read more at blog.heritage.org ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; Computers/Internet; Food; Health/Medicine; Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: beprepared; disaster; emp; getreadyhereitcomes; powerfailure; preparedness; prepperping; preppers; prepping; solar; solarstorm; sun; survival; survivalping
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-86 next last
The whole blog post is good
1 posted on 07/07/2012 7:41:54 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Kartographer

Ping.


2 posted on 07/07/2012 7:42:33 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Occupy DC General Assembly: We are Marxist tools. WE ARE MARXIST TOOLS!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
There must be lots of money in fear-mongering.
3 posted on 07/07/2012 7:42:58 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Get use to misery, 0bama voters.

It’s going to be this way with 0bama in office.

0bama likes us to be miserable. Makes him happy.

Doesn’t matter who you are, what color you are, where you come from.
We’ll all be thrown under the bus, maybe we already have.

VOTE HIM OUT!


4 posted on 07/07/2012 7:49:55 PM PDT by TribalPrincess2U (54,000,000 0bama's people on welfare and food stamps?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: E. Pluribus Unum

Good work, if you can get it...


5 posted on 07/07/2012 7:51:09 PM PDT by Red Badger (Think logically. Act normally.................)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: E. Pluribus Unum

“There must be lots of money in fear-mongering.”

I know a lot of people who made a lot of money during the Y2K scam.


6 posted on 07/07/2012 7:54:06 PM PDT by Clay Moore (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of a fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Clay Moore

Yes because we know that no great empires have ever fallen in the entire history of the world.


7 posted on 07/07/2012 7:58:04 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Clay Moore

Y2K was a real threat that was wisely diverted thru a great deal of money and effort.

Calling it a scam is like describing the flood risk along the Mississippi as a scam.


8 posted on 07/07/2012 7:58:53 PM PDT by redlegplanner ( No Representation without Taxation)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: redlegplanner

Oh I dunno, just because you test some software and it fails doesn’t mean it will fail when the clock really ticks over, does it?


9 posted on 07/07/2012 8:03:49 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: E. Pluribus Unum

“There must be lots of money in fear-mongering.”

Yes, there is a rash of EMP articles every four months.


10 posted on 07/07/2012 8:12:33 PM PDT by DBrow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: driftdiver; Clay Moore

Remember all the Y2K “control centers” and “disaster control rooms” that were put in with Fed money? Find ONE now.


11 posted on 07/07/2012 8:18:49 PM PDT by DBrow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

I’m set up for EMP..

I lucked into some almost free solar panels. Enough to
run fans,lights, my QRP ham gear, and stuff like the microwave
for short bursts. Got a selection of ham and other gear set up
to survive (I hope) and if need be I can whip up some simple ham gear from parts.

I hope my hard drives survive if this ever happens, got 6TB of data I’d hate to lose.


12 posted on 07/07/2012 8:19:01 PM PDT by Bobalu (It is not obama we are fighting, it is the media.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

If it meant never having to hear Atlantic coasters whining again, I’d launch an EMP against them right now. You lost power for a few days, get over it and stfu


13 posted on 07/07/2012 8:21:23 PM PDT by Figment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: redlegplanner
"Y2K was a real threat that was wisely diverted thru a great deal of money and effort."

I agree. A lot of coders worked very hard, and worked long, grinding hours to built workarounds or otherwise changed vulnerable coding for essential programs. Since then, they have always been sort of like heroes to me. :o)

14 posted on 07/07/2012 8:22:23 PM PDT by redhead (C'mon, Inner Peace...I don't have all day...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: driftdiver

As I understand it, if it only has two places for the year and needs four, yes.


15 posted on 07/07/2012 8:24:54 PM PDT by redlegplanner ( No Representation without Taxation)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
People simply are not and will not be prepared, even if they try which many don't because of the simple fact of daily life. What's possible and what will come at some point is too catastrophic for anyone to stop.

The best (and only real) preparation is falling into the hands of our loving Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is coming soon to take us out of here before He brings this judgment on the world. If you haven't received Him as your Savior, why not do it now? Just ask Him to come into your heart. It's that simple - but the results are profound because His death on the cross made it all possible by His grace.

16 posted on 07/07/2012 8:26:33 PM PDT by PapaNew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Interesting, we had this same type storm in Memphis on July 22, 2003 and it was practically ignored by the mass media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Summer_Storm_of_2003


17 posted on 07/07/2012 8:29:15 PM PDT by packrat35 (Admit it! We are almost ready to be called a police state!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PapaNew

People using religion as an excuse not to prepare are as bad as liberals nitwits. One is waiting for God to rescue them from something they should have planned for and the other is waiting on the government to rescue them.


18 posted on 07/07/2012 8:36:51 PM PDT by packrat35 (Admit it! We are almost ready to be called a police state!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
The upside to an EMP would be that the ability of the feral government to implement its totalitarian plans would be eviscerated.

I think we'd actually be better off once we made the necessary adjustments.

No more cable TV or Internet or surveillance drones would not be all bad.

19 posted on 07/07/2012 8:42:10 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: packrat35

That’s because Tennesseans don’t really know how to whine and bellyache. A large percentage of the population in the Baltimore-Washington-Northern Virginia corridor (with it HUGE number of federal employees and large population of government handout entitled/dependent individuals) have it down to a science. I should know, I live in the People’s Democratic Republic of Maryland and suffer hearing that whining all the time.


20 posted on 07/07/2012 8:43:32 PM PDT by House Atreides
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
As awful as this is, things could be even worse. Imagine for a moment that that the power never came back on.

Hold it!

I am sorry but except in a "Dies the Fire" fantasy where the laws of physics get rewritten the power will come back on.

It may take a while, even a few years at worse but it will be back. Making a generator is not that hard, they were doing it in the 1700's. Got a river or stream? You have the engine to turn the wheels to generate electricity. No flowing water? Wind will work. You will need to make wet cell batteries but they were doing that 2000 BC.

Will we have "all we need"? Probably. Not all we want but enough to get things back up and running. And that will be built on.

In case of EMP that took down the entire grid all over the world (Unlikely as that is) with in a week you would have some clever folks generating their own electricity. Certainly with a month.

Getting the entire thing back up and running would only take a few years if people were properly motivated. I have no doubt they would be motivated.

The trick be surviving until things began to sort themselves out.

21 posted on 07/07/2012 8:46:07 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Dragons don't have friends. The nearest they can get to the idea is an enemy who is still alive.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
The thing is, I have never seen a discussion about what it world take, for instance, to protect an existing power distribution system from EMP. I know it's not impossible.

It would be pointless, for example to protect all my electric devices by whatever means, if the distribution control points fail. Or the generation controls, even if they control relative "low-tech" but huge hydroelectric generating facilities. Can those control rooms be "isolated" and protected from EMP by any reasonable means?
I have no idea, but can't help wondering if anyone does.

22 posted on 07/07/2012 8:47:00 PM PDT by publius911 (Formerly Publius 6961, formerly jennsdad)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Figment
You lost power for a few days, get over it and stfu

6 days of no electricity for me in 100 degree heat...It sucked tough guy...And I had a 5500 watt generator.

23 posted on 07/07/2012 8:48:25 PM PDT by BreezyDog (PLAN A: A Peaceful Restoration of the Republic.....PLAN B: A Restoration of the Republic)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: driftdiver

The USA is different from all other empires and great nations in history. It can never fall. /sarc


24 posted on 07/07/2012 9:06:58 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: redlegplanner; driftdiver

“Y2K was a real threat that was wisely diverted thru a great deal of money and effort.

Calling it a scam is like describing the flood risk along the Mississippi as a scam.”
____________________________________________________________
Kinda like that biblical Jonah and his Nineveh scam huh?/s

In all seriousness, that truly was a disaster averted.


25 posted on 07/07/2012 9:08:40 PM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: BreezyDog
Cry me a river. I've been to Alabama and Mississippi 4 times in the last year helping people whose towns are gone. Sorry you got a little sweaty and were inconvenienced. That must have been hell
26 posted on 07/07/2012 9:09:45 PM PDT by Figment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee

No, no, no, they just didn’t have the computers required to print enough stimulus. Get your story straight!


27 posted on 07/07/2012 9:09:51 PM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Bobalu

“I lucked into some almost free solar panels. ... I hope my hard drives survive if this ever happens, got 6TB of data I’d hate to lose.”

Most hard drives, plugged in or not, would be toast. And if your solar panels have any integrated electronics they would be gone, too.

I read about a trick using an old microwave as a protective box for hard drives and small electronics. The post said an old microwave plugged into a grounded outlet can act as a shield for hard drives, acting as a faraday cage. I don’t know if it works, but you might look into it. You could get several external hard drives and rotate them between the computer and the microwave.


28 posted on 07/07/2012 9:12:25 PM PDT by PastorBooks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: House Atreides

Memphis is majority black and can whine with the best of them. They are just ignored on these kind of issues, while New York, Chicago and Washington get the press for minor issues.


29 posted on 07/07/2012 9:12:33 PM PDT by packrat35 (Admit it! We are almost ready to be called a police state!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Anyone out there have all their electrical / electronics stored in a Farraday cage?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farraday_cage

If not, hope you're good at replacing coils, transistors, resistors, relays, contactors, and switchs...the 'really small' ones found in just about every device we used nowdays...
30 posted on 07/07/2012 9:14:49 PM PDT by 45semi (The correct response to any accusation of racism in the modern age is laughter!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Harmless Teddy Bear; CodeToad; driftdiver; Lurker
The trick will be to survive the utter mayhem that would result. Many would not survive to see the grid brought back on line. Sometimes, the utter mayhem leads to a Dark Ages. Rome had many inventions in common use which were lost for centuries. The laws of physics were not repealed, but still, the old ways were lost to centuries of feudalism under barbaric warlords across wide swaths of the former Roman Empire.

Look at much of post-colonial Africa today. Roads collapse and are never repaired. Copper is stripped out to make bracelets and the wiring is never replaced. Etc. I know that Africa is a rather special case, but it proves that declines can become self-reinforcing, even in our modern era.

31 posted on 07/07/2012 9:15:19 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

The difference is, there will be nearly instant recovery from a heat wave. The impact of EMP would decimate the population and recovery would take years, if not decades.


32 posted on 07/07/2012 9:19:11 PM PDT by bigbob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PastorBooks

I guess the best thing to do would be to transfer the data to blank blu ray disks.

The solar panels are stored in a shed. They have no integrated electronics other than a 3amp diode to prevent the batteries draining when in the dark. I have a bag of diodes in protected storage that should be alright.

I have tube gear for just in case the solid state stuff is all fried. I can rig a vibrator power convertor for the solar system to power the filament and hi voltages for the old gear if the solid state inverters all fail.


33 posted on 07/07/2012 9:27:33 PM PDT by Bobalu (It is not obama we are fighting, it is the media.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Harmless Teddy Bear

The “sorting out” is the problem, however optimistic a scenario you wish to paint. The book “One Second After” offers a plausible scenario of post EMP chaos and survival. The power will not come back on quickly enough to matter for the sick, frail, or anyone dependent on medication, they will be gone within a month. While we can envision enclaves of technologists (perhaps you and I, for example) who will find ways to spin a water wheel or wind generator, there are more efficient ways to make light and preserve food, especially considering there are a lot more of “them” who would kill and steal to take things of value than there are of “us”. If the majority of the population is reduced to survivalism within a month or two, getting the lights on will be a relatively low priority.

However, generating sufficient power to enable communications would be a top priority, I’m with you there, and ignoring the potential to restore radio communications is one of the few nits I would pick with Forstchen’s book.


34 posted on 07/07/2012 9:31:35 PM PDT by bigbob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Figment

There are many who have it worse off than I do...I realize that. Why do have to be a righteous dick about it? This past week wasn’t fun for millions on the East coast. Maybe you should get over it.


35 posted on 07/07/2012 9:35:44 PM PDT by BreezyDog (PLAN A: A Peaceful Restoration of the Republic.....PLAN B: A Restoration of the Republic)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: bigbob

“.......The book “One Second After” offers a plausible scenario of post EMP chaos and survival.......”
*******************************************************************
Thanks bigbob. I just ordered “”One Second After” from Amazon. Was going to order it in the Kindle edition but decided to instead pay 20 cents more and get the paperback...just in case my wife’s Kindle gets fried by an EMP before I can read the book next week. Just kidding about the EMP—I usually prefer “hard copy”.


36 posted on 07/07/2012 9:50:05 PM PDT by House Atreides
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: BreezyDog

maybe you should get over it. Your whining is tiring


37 posted on 07/07/2012 10:03:46 PM PDT by Figment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Harmless Teddy Bear
There's at least one government report that detailed the ugly truth of the results of a Carrington level event. A few years would be a best case scenario. Government as it exists now would be non-existent. Once the grid goes down and the stored fuel that's accessible is gone, it would be a very different world.

The reason is the main transformers that exist at big baseload power plants. There's one monster transformer for each phase. Those have a lead time of over a year. There used to be one and only one plant in the US that made them. A Carrington level event would destroy hundreds of those transformers if the report is to be believed.

It is conceivable that some areas might not recover for decades if at all. The immediate result of a Carrington level event would be the death of millions in a very short time due the loss of modern infrastructure such as water treatment facilities and the ability to transport food stuffs. Large cities would be uninhabitable.

You can forget the idea of continuity of government. I've personally seen the level of planning that ignores reality. Locally during the current power outages, the level of incompetence is staggering. I'm seeing that in the utility effort which exemplifies the failure of top down management or central planning and even the Red Cross which is showing some unbelievable lack of basic preparedness.

It was very instructive to talk to three Red Cross crews in the past two days and realize they are unprepared to the point they can't accomplish something as basic as find an address. Same with the National Guard.

If the basics can't be accomplished in something like the current situation, the reprecussions of a Carrington level event are so extreme they are simply beyond the comprehension of most.

These are pictures of the specialized Schnabel rail cars used to transport the main transformers used at power plants. These are also few and far beween. I suspect there are only a couple in North America.

BTW, there's only one plant that builds large generators in this counry too.

38 posted on 07/07/2012 10:27:44 PM PDT by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: redlegplanner; redhead; JDW11235; driftdiver; Clay Moore

I had the same type of discussion on another thread just tonight.

The thing with people wanting to point to Y2K as an example of why there’s no need to prepare is a misnomer, yes nothing happened, but not because there was no problem. Nothing happened because companies and governments spent millions of dollars and IT people spend thousand of man hours fixing the problem before it could occur.

Taking heed of a problem and preventing a disaster does not prove disasters can not happen.

If a farmer stores bails of sand bags and water pumps in case of flooding and one spring the Weather Service announces a river crest that’s 6” over the levee that protects his farm, and then he and his neighbors work together and raise the levee a foot. And between the sand bags and the water pumps the farm which is below the river’s crest doesn’t flood.

Does that mean the farm was never in any danger of flooding. Was the farmer and his neighbors fools for working so hard to sand bag the levee and keep the pumps running? Hell was it foolish for the farmer to store the sand bags and the pumps to begin with? Was the Weather Service wrong in issuing their Flood Warning?

Pointing to a disaster averted is NO PROOF that disasters can not and will not occur.


39 posted on 07/07/2012 10:33:52 PM PDT by Kartographer ("We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: redlegplanner

I worked on several large/y2k projects, it was real, there were real needs to get those programs updated to ensure things ran without incident.


40 posted on 07/07/2012 11:27:13 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: packrat35

I wouldn’t say it’s an excuse. It’s a necessary first step of doing the rest of your prepping. Get right with God first, then do your planning - a wise man sees what is going on around him and plans accordingly, a fool sees what is happening and does nothing.


41 posted on 07/07/2012 11:30:28 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Figment

‘If it meant never having to hear Atlantic coasters whining again, I’d launch an EMP against them right now. You lost power for a few days, get over it and stfu’—

May you go 10 days in 100+degree heat, with no water, cooling, refrigeration, ice or flushing toilets, oh and don’t ‘whine’.


42 posted on 07/08/2012 3:18:09 AM PDT by Freddd (No PA Engineers)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: packrat35

Practically ignored? I don’t think so. I lived in the DC area, and I remember it very well. Although I will say, it took a little while for it to make the big news.


43 posted on 07/08/2012 5:21:08 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: packrat35

... and just so you know, the Wikipedia article says the temperature soared past 90 degrees. In the aftermath of the East Coast storm, we’ve been sitting in 100+ temperatures for over a week. And the population of the area affected is several times greater. So, yes, it is a little more newsworthy.


44 posted on 07/08/2012 5:23:13 AM PDT by dangus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee

Here’s a thought for you. What if the polls were showing dear leader had no chance of winning about the middle of October. Would anyone be surprised if he and Bill Ayers cooked up a scheme to set off a coordinated series of EMP’s across the country. The resulting chaos would make elections impossible so dear leader would be forced to maintain control. Remember Bill Ayers said it would be necessary to kill 25 million Americans. That would be easy for them to accomplish.


45 posted on 07/08/2012 6:23:52 AM PDT by antisocial (Texas SCV - Deo Vindice)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Freddd

Been there done that. Get over it. There’s a reason you folks are stuck on the east coast


46 posted on 07/08/2012 6:24:48 AM PDT by Figment
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Figment
There’s a reason you folks are stuck on the east coast

No complaints here - even if I did lose power, which, between hurricanes and blizzards happens from time to time here in New England. Plenty of fresh water, lots of meat walking and flying around in the woods and fields, mild summers, trout and salmon - it's God's country. And if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes.

I'd rather deal with cold than heat.

47 posted on 07/08/2012 6:40:05 AM PDT by Sirius Lee (Goode over evil. Voting for mitt or obie is like throwing your country away.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: antisocial

Too hard to hide the fingerprints. I think it’s more likely we’ll see a Persian Gulf of Tonkin Incident, leading to all-out war in the region, leading to a “state of emergency.” Iranians will retaliate with widespread terrorism on U.S. soil, making elections “too dangerous for the time being.”

That’s one scenario for delaying elections.


48 posted on 07/08/2012 6:55:20 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee

“even in our modern era.”

Every falling society thought they had a modern era that could only advance forward.


49 posted on 07/08/2012 6:55:53 AM PDT by CodeToad (uired to vote for a treaty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad

Yes indeed. The world is full of “advanced cities” covered in jungle or buried under sand.


50 posted on 07/08/2012 6:57:36 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-86 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson