Science points to God

Hutchinson News ^ | 7/12/12 | DAVE DENLINGER

[kathsua]

I appreciated the comments of Leroy Stucky (Western Front, June 28) defending the biblical view of the beginning of mankind, the world and the universe, otherwise known as creationism.

Creationism will always be a very difficult doctrine to accept, as long as people exclude the supernatural influence and presence of an almighty God who, in my opinion, started the whole process.

I have never read an issue of The American Spectator magazine, but recently at the library I happened to pick up the May 2012 issue. The magazine, I found out, is very conservative, but not necessary Christian. However, included in this issue was an article titled "Intelligent Design at the University Club," written by Tom Bethell, senior editor of The American Spectator.

Without being preachy or "Bible-thumping," Mr. Bethell argued from a scientific perspective for the dynamic influence of God in the creation of mankind, etc. He defended his argument from several vantage points, and I will mention only one:

"Stephen Meyer, the director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, spoke the other evening at a forum called 'Socrates in the City.' ... In his talk, inquiring how life first appeared from simpler pre-existing chemicals, Meyer emphasized the concept of biological information, which is embedded in DNA.

"Think of it as analogous to software code. ... Software contains instructions that direct computers to accomplish various functions. Likewise, DNA contains instructions for the assembly of tiny machines called proteins, which perform vital functions within every cell."

Meyer went on to explain that "unbelieving" scientists have no explanation as to how the proper information got into the DNA molecule - a gargantuan task, as he went on to explain. Simply put, it certain seems that Someone had to "program" this DNA computer.

In short, as every microbiologist should know, the "simple cell" is the most complex "piece of machinery" ever investigated.

That's one reason why I am a believer in the God of creation, the One who created all forms of life, including man, who also created planet Earth, the solar system and all the galaxies.

[kathsua]

Amen

[AU72]

DNA had to be designed, for it to happen at random would have taken untold billions of year, not within the 16 billion the current universe existed.

A design comes from a designer.

[who_would_fardels_bear]

<>"untold billions of year"

How many 'untold billions' go into a gazillion?

[Psycho_Bunny]

lol...

[Misterioso]

DNA had to be designed . . .

How many billions and billions of years did it take to design God?

[Tucker39]

The late Dr. D. James Kennedy stated that if the DNA code in just one “simple” cell were unwound and printed out in normal typeface it would fill hundreds of volumes of 500+ pages each. Something that complex did not happen by serendipity! When King David of old said that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, (Psalms 139:14) he wasn’t just whistling “Dixie.”

[Olog-hai]

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. — Psalm 19:1, King James Bible

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. —Romans 1:20, New Living Translation

[Olog-hai]

Scientists even write email addresses into bacterial DNA, but they still won’t believe.

[Secret Agent Man]

No such thing as self creating information.

[reefdiver]

So does common sense

[kindred]

And amen.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Ge.1:1

[dog breath]

The coincidences and flukes that would have to accumulate to create humanity are so numerous that they defy any random odds. To not believe in divinity in some form takes a much greater leap of faith then accepting the mystery of God.

[YHAOS]

Oh Boy!

. . . Here we go.

[YHAOS]

"How many billions and billions of years did it take to design God?"

See the Uncaused Cause or Plato’s God of the Great Beyond: http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/file_index.asp?SeriesId=7132

[Sirius Lee]

How many 'untold billions' go into a gazillion?

If I have to tell you it will spoil the surprise.

[AU72]

Eternity means no beginning and no end.

I challenge that any human can get their mind around that!

[Captain Steve]

Good post. Modern science proves the creation account in the Bible, that life was created . . .it’s not a product of random chance.

It’s true that there’s no way DNA could have formed by random chance, but even if it COULD happen, that wouldn’t mean anything unless it could replicate itself. The complexity of that makes assembly of a DNA molecule seem simple.

Here’s a simple explanation of one of the reasons why. “In the beginning,” there was no life and no DNA. Regardless of the mechanism, at some point, life “began” and a first DNA molecule appeared. But even once a DNA molecule appeared, there was/is no life unless that DNA can replicate itself. That is the point that DEMANDS a Creator. A first DNA making a new DNA makes the chicken egg paradox seem like nothing.

That first DNA replicating itself is the equivalent of “the chicken” finding a knife, cutting itself open, pulling itself apart, piece by piece adding new parts that mix and match with the original parts, piecing them together bit by bit, and eventually coming up with two separate and identical new chickens, each of which contained one-half of the parts of the original chicken! Everybody knows by now something about what DNA looks like, but once formed it creates a tightly wound molecule—the well known double helix. Imagine that molecule as the very first DNA molecule on the planet going through that process on its own—untwisting breaking and copying and reassembling, by chance. Impossible.

Anyone who thinks first DNA could replicate itself by chance, doesn’t know much about it. My description was actually simplistic. It’s unbelievably complex.

We live in an amazing time to be able to have this knowledge. Truly, science proves the God of the Bible is the most logical explanation for life. As a former Atheist, I’m particularly grateful for this type of info, because I don’t have a ton of natural faith, but thank God, I have just enough, and God provides the rest.

Capt.Steve :))

[metmom]

ping

[hosepipe]

[ I challenge that any human can get their mind around that! ]

Worse than that.. If eternity future is possible then why not eternity past..

Eternity past relegates “the Big Bang” to fiction... and could cause some physics people serious headaches..

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping, dear YHAOS!

[Alamo-Girl]

I view eternity as time without limitation.

The absence of time would be timelessness.

And somewhere between those two would be "a time of no more counting."

[spirited irish]

If life emerged from otherwise nonlife-bearing chemicals because God started the process this way, then we have an inverted exegis which makes most of the Bible rather useless if not absurd. For example, man did not fall from perfection but is rather evolving upward, away from his primordial beginning to something more and more perfect.

So there was no fall and nothing is wrong with man that the evolutionary process + time won’t make right, hence man does not need a Savior.

According to this inverted exegis, vast numbers of lifeforms arose and died perhaps millions of years before man finally emerged. So who is responsible for death and suffering but God Himself?

God is a God of death not life. He is not a God we run to but run away from. Here the inverted exegis reveals its’ Gnostic pedigree.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear spirited irish!

I do appreciate Young Earth Creationism when one views Genesis 1 and 2 describing primarily the physical creation.

However, your point that God would not have created evil is neither here-nor-there with me:

The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. – Proverbs 16:4

God made the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 2) and I’m confident He did so for His own purpose.

Indeed, it seems to me that a person cannot truly appreciate light if he had never seen darkness, good if he had never seen evil, courage/fear, joy/sorrow and so on. And I truly believe our time here on earth is like a base camp for eternity – that we learn more and better through these contrasts.

I am both a Young Earth Creationist and also an Old Earth Creationist. And I certainly do not expect anyone else to agree with me – but, for the record, here is what I see and why:

At our present space/time coordinates, the universe is observed to be about 15 billion years old. However, when we consider the inflationary model and general relativity (warping of space/time) - we can also see that the universe is about a week old (equivalent earth time) at the inception space/time coordinates (Schroeder et al.)

Note: space/time does not pre-exist, it is created as the universe expands. Areas of high gravity such as black holes, centers of spiral galaxies, stars, planets are like indentations in the fabric of space/time. The deeper the indentation, the slower time elapses. For instance, while one week elapses near a space/time indentation such as a black hole, forty years may elapse on earth. The equivalency principle applies, i.e. the faster a thing moves, the slower time elapses.

For more: Time Warps an Everyday Occurrence and Equivalence Principle

I also perceive a relativistic change of "observer" perspective in Scripture.

More specifically, Genesis chapters 1 to 3 are from the inception perspective. The Creator is the only observer of Creation ex nihilo and He speaks to both the physical and the spiritual as the Creation, the earthly and the heavenly. To presuppose an earthly space/time perspective would result in needless contradiction such as plants on Day 3 before the sun and solar system on Day 4 (emphasis mine:)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Genesis 1:1

These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. – Genesis 2:4-5

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. - Hebrews 11:3

Indeed, I perceive the creation of Adam and the Garden of Eden in the spiritual realm and thus see no contradiction at all in Genesis 1 to 3. The tree of life is in the middle of the Garden of Eden and Paradise (see below) and therefore not strictly physical.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. – Genesis 2:9

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. – Revelation 2:7

I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began. Or to put it another way, I do not perceive Adam as strictly physical.

At the top of Genesis 4, after Adam is banished to mortality, the perspective changes to Adamic man, to our space/time coordinates. Adam's clock starts ticking.

The first indication of the change in observer perspective is in the curse itself (emphasis mine)

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [literally, muwth muwth or “death death”]. – Genesis 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

That is not some vague reference but is explicitly revealed here:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. – 2 Peter 3:8

That is also the Jewish interpretation (Sanhedrin 97a; Avodah Zarah Sa) of Psalms 90:4:

For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

Adam was not made for a mere physical existence like a bacteria, daffodil, fish or cow. He doesn’t “belong” in the physical realm and he knows it. But because he was banished to mortality, this peculiar creature made for Paradise/Eden, having immortality at his finger tips, now is grounded in the physical universe whose life forms were his to name.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. – Genesis 2:19

Death entered the world because of Adam, not just physical death but muwth muwth – death death (Gen 2:17) - not just the death of his physical body, but the death of his living soul.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Romans 5:12

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

Adam, by Jewish and early Christian beliefs, was appointed a week (corresponding to Creation week) - or seven thousand years, the last of which is Christ's thousand year reign on earth, the Lord's Sabbath (Revelation.) The Sabbath is also prophecy:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

To illustrate that it was an early Christian belief, I offer the first excerpt below from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5 which is not part of the canon and is not to be confused with the late sixteenth century Islamic fraud, “The Gospel of Barnabas.”

The Epistle of Barnabas dates back to the first few centuries after Christ’s resurrection. It is quoted by Clement of Alexandria and also mentioned by Origen. It was part of the Codex Sinaiticus but is not part of the Catholic canon today. Nevertheless, it reveals the discernment of these early Christians.

He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of the Creation, "And God made in six days the works of His hands and on the seventh day He made an end, and He rested on the seventh day, and He sanctified it. Consider, my children what this signifies: That He made an end in six days. The meaning of it is this: that in six thousand years the Creator will bring all things to an end, for with Him one day is a thousand years. He Himself testifies, saying, Behold the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, all things shall be accomplished. And He rested on the seventh day: He means this, that when His Son shall come He will destroy the season of the wicked one, and will judge the godless, and will change the sun and the moon and the stars, and then He will truly rest on the seventh day.

It is also recorded in the first verse, chapter 33 of 2 Enoch which is the Slavic version of that book (also not part of the canon) but nevertheless showing the beliefs of early Christians:

And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that (the first seven) revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

In sum, the Jewish mystics and these early Christians (and I) perceive that Adamic man, upon being banished to mortality, was appointed a total of 7 days or 7,000 years. The last day of the week, the Sabbath, in the Christian view is Christ’s millennial reign on earth.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. – Revelation 20:4-6

And again,

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple. But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. – Matt 12:5-8

My understanding of the matter does not at all conflict with Adam’s role in the Fall and it is not at odds with physics or physical cosmology.

Then again, I do not expect anyone else to agree with me. LOLOL!

God’s Name is I AM.

[spirited irish]

AG: I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began

Spirited: Church Fathers such as Augustine and later Doctors such as Aquinas would disagree with your position. Adam was not a pure spirit for from the beginning he had a material body within which was fully embedded a spirit/soul.

His knowledge was of two kinds. First, by means of abstraction from his sense perceptions, and second, from the powers and faculties of his spirit-soul which in its’ prefall condition reached out beyond the body. (St Thomas)

In “Occult Phenomena,” Alois Wiesinger, O.C.S.O. describes Adams prefall spirit-soul gifts in terms of “certain angelic powers (that allowed for participation) in the nature of pure spirits.” (p. 79)

From this the holy Fathers deduced that Adam, “like the mystics, intuitively beheld God, the creation of the world, and the purpose thereof, the principles of law and morals and all that was necessary for him as head and instructor of the human race.” (ibid, p. 81)

Hence Adam possessed an angelic intelligence shown “particularly in the fact that he gave names to the animals,” an act highly rated by St. Augustine as an act of the highest wisdom.

By means of Adams spiritual powers he was able to avoid all dangers to his health and so achieved freedom from suffering and death, for though God created man incorruptible, Adams immortality was “not that of the blessed in heaven, who can no longer die (for Adam there) was simply the possibility of not dying. Our first parents, thanks to their spiritual powers, were able to avoid the causes of death, which are either external, like the mischances of nature, or internal, like sickness...” (ibid, p. 82)

God has said “I am the Lord” (Levitcus) In this light can be seen the gravity of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. The forbidden fruit symbolizes Gods’ necessary demand that man and all of creation remains dependent on Him, for life is of God only.

By eating the fruit the human race refuses this recognition by the “act of appropriating to his own use the fruits of the tree in the middle of Paradise, and in doing so makes use of creation to his own desires, as though he were himself the lord of all. This act of disobedience represented the complete reversal of order (evil), an act of rebellion and revolt by which the Creator was rejected and condemned (as Creator of suffering and death) and the creature unlawfully assumed the mastery.” (ibid, p. 92)

The consequences of this act were terrible. Adam and Eve lost the “love and friendship of God...the sanctifying grace and the infused virtues, lost all the gifts...designed to elevate, strengthen and perfect his nature. That nature therefore now remained dependent on itself and, being thus weakened, came under the domination of matter.” (p. 92)

With the loss of supernatural and preternatural gifts the material bodies of Adam and Eve within which their souls were embedded became subject to corruption, that is decay and death (Law of Entropy). And their wills, which had previously maintained dominion over the body, allowing it freedom from concupiscence, ceased to be immune, thus concupiscence drew it toward all things opposite to the nature and character of God, and this is what we call sin, or evil.

[RegulatorCountry]

We’re surrounded by eternity in every direction, to the point that “beginning” and “end,” linear time and even scale would seem to be illusion. Is there not an eternity in every second of every day? Start dividing by two and tell me when you reach the end of it. Ever inward.

Matter is mostly empty space, but it’s still quite solidly real to us. We perceive our surroundings as we do as a result of the senses and faculties with which we are equipped. That does not mean that our perceptions are the end of it, though, far from it. A godlike intelligence awaits even the most ardent atheist if he’s honest enough to investigate and consider all the implications, and is willing to grapple with those implications.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear spirited irish, and those of Alois Wiesinger!

All nature is subject to the second law of thermodynamics. And that includes physically living things. Even the lowly amoeba which cannot die except by outside influence (is not subject to programmed cell death aka apoptosis) must pay the thermodynamic tab by dissipating heat into the local environment, i.e. metabolism or in information theory the reduction of uncertainty in the molecular machine as it moves from a before state to an after state (Shannon, Schneider et al.)

In my view, Adam and therefore his offspring once banished to mortality retained their supernatural being as compared to strictly natural beings and therefore the patriarchs lived exceptionally long lives. That is, they lived long lives until the Noah flood when all such beings were destroyed and the only surviving Adamic men (Noah and family) were cursed to shorter lives.

Or to put it another way, I perceive God's judgment in the Noah flood was targeted to the watcher-angels, their offspring and Adamic man whom they had corrupted - and everything else they corrupted on the earth.

And it cometh to pass that mankind have begun to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters have been born to them, and sons of God see the daughters of men that they [are] fair, and they take to themselves women of all whom they have chosen.

And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them -- they [are] the heroes, who, from of old, [are] the men of name.

And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day; and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself -- unto His heart.

And Jehovah saith, `I wipe away man whom I have prepared from off the face of the ground, from man unto beast, unto creeping thing, and unto fowl of the heavens, for I have repented that I have made them.' - Genesis 6:1-7 (Young's literal translation)

A flood targeted to destroy Adamic men and watcher angels and all they touched is also consistent with the book of Enoch which is quoted several times in the New Testament. A targeted flood is also consistent with the physical record though of course scientists must attribute all causes to nature and thus they speculate the cause as comets during the Bronze Age:

At some time around 2300 BC, give or take a century or two, a large number of the major civilisations of the world collapsed, simultaneously it seems. The Akkadian Empire in Mesopotamia, the Old Kingdom in Egypt, the Early Bronze Age civilisation in Israel, Anatolia and Greece, as well as the Indus Valley civilisation in India, the Hilmand civilisation in Afghanistan and the Hongshan Culture in China - the first urban civilisations in the world - all fell into ruin at more or less the same time. Why? …

Since the damage was far too excessive and did not show signs of military or human involvement, he argued that repeated earthquakes might have been responsible for these events. At the time he published, Schaeffer was not taken seriously by the world of archaeology. Since then, however, natural scientists have found widespread and unambiguous evidence for abrupt climate change, sudden sea level changes, catastrophic inundations, widespread seismic activity and evidence for massive volcanic activity at several periods since the last Ice Age, but particularly at around 2200BC, give or take 200 years.

Areas such as the Sahara, or around the Dead Sea, were once farmed but became deserts. Tree rings show disastrous growth conditions at c 2350BC, while sediment cores from lakes and rivers in Europe and Africa show a catastrophic drop in water levels at this time. In Mesopotamia, vast areas of land appear to have been devastated, inundated, or totally burned...

Comets and Disasters in the Bronze Age

As I said before though, I do not expect anyone else to agree with my view of such things. And certainly I would expect neither Augustine nor Aquinas to agree. After all, Filastrius in the 390s (Liber de haeresibus) condemned the Book of Enoch even though it was referenced in Jude 14-15, 2 Peter 2:4, Luke 9:35 etc.

Even if they knew it existed, they could not know its true antiquity which was recently confirmed by a copy being found in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 1940s. The book, and therefore its insight, was banned and removed by the Church for over a thousand years even though Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Tatian, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen and others accepted it.

But everything happens according to God's will and timing, including when we are to know what:

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4

God's Name is I AM.

[AU72]

In the physical world everything is contingent. Nothing occupies the same time and place beyond the instance. Atoms, sub-atoms, planets solar systems, galaxies are all moving in many directions at the same time and are in a state of decay the moment they exist.

[TXnMA]

Your "inverted exegis" [sic] position is typical of the sort of "either/or" fallacy to which man -- with his his simplistic mind -- is vulnerable.

God is "I AM". He is not binary.

"God is a God of death not life." and "God is a God of life not death." are equally absurd positions -- and, certainly positions which no creature of His is worthy to espouse.

"Pigeonholing" God (and his motives) thusly is as absurd as calling gravity, "evil" or "good". The same gravity that powers the graceful slalom skier down the course, also splattered jumpers from the WTC across the pavement in Manhattan.

Your initial statement,

"If life emerged from otherwise nonlife-bearing chemicals because God started the process this way, then we have an inverted exegis which makes most of the Bible rather useless if not absurd."

Is precisely as preposterous and invalid as is the "God is a God of death not life." to which you extended it.

It is particularly unworthy of a believer to demean God Himself as an attempt at refuting a particular position on how God's Creation proceeded.

His Name is "I AM"!

In the love and full respect of Christ and our Creator, I rebuke your attempted argument.

[spirited irish]

“A flood targeted to destroy Adamic men and watcher angels...”

Spirited: Let us add to this list those grotesque part human—part reptile, bird, beast beings somehow created by the fallen angels. The flood targeted them by way of disembodiment.

Though their bodies died the demons occupying them live on-—right here, all around us as spirit guides calling themselves everything from Neale Donald Walsh’s God to powerful New Age insider Barbara Marx Hubbard’s Jesus.

As for the fallen angels, they too are here, posing as extraterrestrials, Transcended Masters, the Council of Nine, and the Space Brothers.

[TXnMA]

Thank you, Dear Sister, for the ping to this thread (which, as you know, addresses one of my own, deep and abiding, personal interests)!

As usual, I find myself in general agreement with your excellent essay/posts. Also, as usual, (lacking, rergetfully, the grace with which you address those with differing views) I have entered the discussion by refuting something that I found to be distressing...

For some reason, the binary "my way or the highway" position-taking that pervades these "crevo" threads offends me more and more as I proceed beyond my "threescore and ten" milestone...

Blessings to all -- but be advised that a 3/4-centenarian. believer+scientist curmudgeon has joined the discussion! '-)

[TXnMA]

"Eternity past relegates “the Big Bang” to fiction... and could cause some physics people serious headaches.."

True -- BUT... only IF you consider this created universe to be "all that is and all that ever will be".

It was not science fiction speculation, but rather awe at the incomprehensible temporal, spatial and spiritual boundlessness of "I AM" that led me to consider the very real possibility of endless universes (including "Heaven") beyond this one...

[spirited irish]

Spirited: “If life emerged from otherwise nonlife-bearing chemicals because God started the process this way, then we have an inverted exegis which makes most of the Bible rather useless if not absurd.”

TXnMA: Is precisely as preposterous and invalid as is the “God is a God of death not life.” to which you extended it.

Spirited: You are very long on emotion-fueled presumptuous attacks but woefully lacking to the point of nonexistance on logically reasoned refutation. If you wish to be taken seriously at all you will address your obvious failure.

[hosepipe]

[ True — BUT... only IF you consider this created universe to be “all that is and all that ever will be”. ]

True.... “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. “(1 Cor 2;9)

** Note; I consider the heart of man to be analogous to the brain of man.. on some levels.. and love being sacrifice..

For what a lovely universal economy built on service to each other it might be.. if love was merely sacrifice.. Where wealth might be deemed the amount of service and services you might provide to others.. and poverty deemed the degree of service you might not be able to provide...

Even those in poverty might still be able to provide some service.. and blessed and honored that they could provide some of it.. at all... How rich you may be being determined by what you could give/offer and not what you may take/receive..

[TXnMA]

"And somewhere between those two would be "a time of no more counting." "

Dear Sister, I can only guess (and hope) that you have some jewels of your thoughtful, prayerful, inspired consideration of all things clothed within that remarkable statement. :-)

Are you ready (and willing) to share those thoughts/revelations with us?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your views, dear spirited irish!

The book of Enoch would agree that the offspring of the watchers (angels assigned to look after Adamic men) and women are the demons, i.e. that their bodies were destroyed in the Noah flood but their spirits continued to roam the earth, e.g.:

And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. - Mark 1:34

However the watchers themselves are not roaming the earth according to Enoch and the New Testament references to Enoch - they are chained in darkness until the day of judgment:

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; - 2 Peter 2:4-5

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. - Jude 1:6

The watchers were not fallen angels according to Enoch, they were on assignment. But rather than looking after Adamic men, they taught him all sorts of things he was not to know, slept with the women creating bloody monsters, etc. Enoch's assignment was to plead on the watchers' behalf which he did and their main concern was for their offspring.

God's Name is I AM.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements and for all of your insights!

I treasure you as my dear brother in Christ and also as our trusted expert in the sciences. And so I'm tickled pink that you and I are on the same wavelength in our understanding of these Scriptures!

By the way, I'm right behind you in the years department, closing in on the big 66. LOLOL!

And yes, it is very difficult to have a discussion on any crevo thread when the players refuse to meet on the 50 yard line. But I know spirited irish as a brilliant and eloquent seeker and I'm fairly confident that hanging around the goalpost was not her intent but rather laying out a key philosophical/theological basis for Young Earth Creationism.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your question, dear brother in Christ, and for your encouragements!

Since your line of inquiry is related to AU72's earlier reply and hosepipe's usual interest (and yours too, MHGinTN) - I decided to ping all of you.

In post 21 I said:

I view eternity as time without limitation.

The absence of time would be timelessness.

And somewhere between those two would be "a time of no more counting."

And you asked:

"And somewhere between those two would be "a time of no more counting." "

Dear Sister, I can only guess (and hope) that you have some jewels of your thoughtful, prayerful, inspired consideration of all things clothed within that remarkable statement. :-)

Are you ready (and willing) to share those thoughts/revelations with us?

Leaning on geometry to visualize it, here goes:

"Eternity" is a line, an arrow of time, that goes on without limitation. The present is a point on that line and it only moves in one direction. What is past is past, it cannot be again. The future lies ahead, it has not yet occurred.

Events happen serial/sequentially on the arrow of time. Aristotle illustrated this concept of time by simply counting 1, 2, 3 ...

The "Time of no more counting" is not linear therefore although time exists it is irrelevant.

There is not a serial/sequential relationship between points in the volume of time. And the real "present" is the sum of it all - all points at once like a quantum field.

An individual observer's sense of "present" could be any point - any when in the volume of time.

Only God, because He is the Creator, can see the sum of it, the real present - "all that there is" all at once.

He sees it altogether in what some people might call an "eternal now" though I would stumble over the word "eternal" being used with the word "now."

And that brings up "Timelessness" which is no time at all. No points of time or space. Indeed, no thing at all. But God is not thingly. Only God the Creator IS.

Thus His Name is I AM and YHwH (which means He IS), Alpha and Omega, the God and the Creator.

After all, space and time are part of the Creation ex nihilo, not a property or restriction on the Creator of it.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:8

[TXnMA]

"Only God, because He is the Creator, can see the sum of it, the real present - "all that there is" all at once.

He sees it altogether in what some people might call an "eternal now" though I would stumble over the word "eternal" being used with the word "now.""

~~~~~~~

AHA!! I thought that was where you might be headed!

Remember a couple of years or so ago when I was working a multidimensional graphic to illustrate what we then called, "God's Universal NOW"? It appears that we are back there again...

God -- who is unlimited and unconstrained by either time or space -- can see, at any instant -- the true state of anywhere and everywhere in His entire created universe at that same instant.

We, on the other hand, are constrained to see only the energy (usually radiation of various wavelengths traveling at 'C') that impinges on our spatial location from any given direction.

We see a star or other astronomical scene at some distance (N light years) -- as it existed N years ago. God knows, right [universal] NOW that that object may no longer exist -- but that only when light has reached us (N years later) will we know of its disappearance.

Curiously (or providentially?) today's APOD ("Astronomy Picture of the Day") addresses that very issue!!

M16: the "Pillars of Creation"

At the bottom of the page we find:

"The pillars of creation were imaged again in 2007 by the orbiting Spitzer Space Telescope in infrared light, leading to the conjecture that the pillars may already have been destroyed by a local supernova, but light from that event has yet to reach the Earth."

Because God (His Name is "I AM") is (if He chooses to be) in the "Universal NOW", He knows the answer to the above -- right NOW!

What an awesome and majestic God we worship!!!

[spirited irish]

Not the original watchers, but others of their stature. J.R. Tolkien understood this to be true, hence by the close of the Silmallion, Morgoth (Lucifer) has been banished to outer darkness. By the start of the trilogy, Sauron-—a second level angel and Morgoth’s commander-in-chief so to speak-—takes up where Morgoth left off.

Lucifer’s legion is 1/3 of the pure spirit hierarchy. Those who are in chains are but a fraction of it.

[spirited irish]

TXnMA: For some reason, the binary “my way or the highway” position-taking that pervades these “crevo” threads

Spirited: In other words, the way to God is a highway, particularly a billions of years old evolutionary escalator, rather than the strait and narrow path as He said.

You publicly broadcast your “upset” at my post to AG. If your beliefs were sure, if there was confidence in them, there would be neither upset nor compulsion to attack the bearer of the message.

Whether it causes upset or not, the fact remains that when applied to the Bible evolutionary thinking inverts God’s Revelation. For example, rather than man falling from a state somewhat less than perfect, evolutionary thinking speaks of man evolving upward, away from his supposedly millions or billions of years old emergence from primordial matter.

So in just this one example we see that evolutionary thinking negates the Fall, sin, and man’s need for a Savior as well as making God the Father responsible for death and suffering. This is a decidedly Gnostic view.

Evolutionary thinking is neither new nor particularly scientific. The very ancient Enuma Elish, though mainly concerned with the exploits of Marduk, is in fact an Assyrian-Babylonian evolutionary cosmogony speaking of how all things evolved out of pre-existing primordial matter, that is, a watery abyss. Moving forward to ancient Egypt we find the Sun-God Ra speaking of how he emerged out of primordial matter he calls Nu.

In the post-flood world Noah remained in the East and established worship of the true God while his son journeyed to the West, to the land of Shinar, location of Babylonia, Marduk, and the Enuma Elish.

Though initially attracted to evolutionary thinking C.S. Lewis rejected it later on after connecting it to a revival of paganism.

Our God is a living Creator Who created ex nihilo, meaning that He called all things into existence. The early Church Fathers affirmed creation ex nihilo and taught against evolutionary thinking, known in their day as reincarnation and metempsychosis.

To ridicule so-called “crevos” as you put it, is to ridicule the Genesis account, God’s Revealation in other words. It would be better by far to be a seeker of truth, even though truth tastes bitter.

[spirited irish]

AG: I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began

Spirited: Unless my understanding of your stated view is incorrect, what it appears to be saying is that Adams’ fall was from spirit into matter. If this is so, then it is similar in many ways to Western pagan, Gnostic, and Eastern views.

For your consideration, here is what Catholic philosopher Thomas Molnar, now-deceased Visiting Professor of Philosophy at Yale University has to say about this view in his widely-acclaimed, “The Pagan Temptation.”

Molnar reveals that from Plato to Plotinus, it was held as axiomatic that the fall of spirit/souls into the material realm was either inexplicable or explained as punishment. At any rate it was a plunge from being as one with or an aspect of the Divine Substance into the material realm of distinctions, or binary.

In “Against the Christians” (frag. 77) Porphyry, disciple of Plotinus and Arnobius, writes:

“How can one admit that the divine should become an embryo, that after his birth he is put in swaddling clothes, that he is soiled with blood and bile, and worse things yet?” (The Pagan Temptation, Thomas Molnar, p. 27)

In “Adversus nationes” (2.37) Arnobius complains:

“If souls were of the Lord’s race…They would never come to these terrestrial places (and) inhabit opaque bodies and (be) mixed with humors and blood, in receptacles of excrement, in vases of urine.” (ibid)

As all things are aspects of (in contiunity with) the Divine Substance by whatever name it goes, i.e., watery abyss, Nu, chaos, then human beings have a share of the Divine substance. The fall then is into evil matter and binary. The body being matter it is perceived as a tomb, a receptacle of excrement, from which spirit must escape that it can become one with, or be reabsorbed into, the Divine Substance. Salvation is reabsorption.

Molnar notes that the closest pagan thinkers came to Incarnation was with a purely negative connotation in the teachings of Pythagoras and Empedocles. They taught that souls fallen from the divine Substance are subsequently incarnated in animal forms as punishment.

Incarnation of soul in animal form and then into another form and so on is the basis of evolutionary thinking, fatalism, determinism, reincarnation, karma.

Pre-Christian and early Christian Gnostics were more directly influenced by Eastern systems than were Greek thinkers. The leaders of the Gnostic movement–Valentiunus, Basilides, Arnobius and others—taught that the world and bodies are the work of the devil (Yahweh) who holds the Divine Substance (good God..Lucifer) in bondage. Gnostics, or Pneumatics, possess the secret gnosis of escaping this evil world so as to be reabsorbed into the divine substance. Since matter is evil and reabsorption salvation then procreation is evil because it produces more earthly suffering by trapping divine sparks within bodies.

The similarity between Greek and Upanishadic doctrines is striking said Molnar. The Upanishads teach that souls are aspects or particles of the totality. The fall of souls is into bodies. This cosmic rupture is a state of misery for the separated souls because in the body they become limited and divided into individuals, male and female. Rather than oneness (wholeness) there is a binary system of opposites which must be eliminated:

” The foremost “binary” is the distinction between the Creator and the creature. Other binaries then fall like dominos—the binary of right and wrong, for example. “We must beware of thinking of good and evil as absolute opposites,” says a leading theorist. Modern psychologists tell us that a binary view of reality (as made up of opposites) produces guilt, the hallmark of neurosis. The Hindu notion of Advaita, “not two,” dominates spirituality and “non-dual spirituality” is taught even in some “evangelical” schools. Lesbian activists ask: “Can We Put an End to the Gender Binary?” (The Advocate.com) because “there is no one way a person should be.” (May 9, 2012: The Official End of Christendom, Dr. Peter Jones)

Atomists such as Epicurus taught that the “all that exists” is the void and matter, and that human beings, their intelligence and volition, are an evolved accident of chance. Everything is void and matter, therefore first principles, eternal ideas, souls, spirits, divine reason and afterlife are absurdities. Only reason is left, but reason is active only because sensations (i.e., firing of neurons, chemical interactions) stimulate it.

Epicurus’s materialist teachings are the basis of all materialist systems, including the West’s contemporary version, scientific matierialism and its main doctrine, biological evolution.

In contrast to pagan evolutionism, Christianity teaches that the supernatural God is the Ultimate Thinker, the living, personal Creator who called all things into being from nothing—creation ex nihilo. He creates all souls individual and immortal. They are not mere aspects of an unthinking, impersonal substance, but rather they belong to the supernatural God Who speaks:

“Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4

Again in contrast to pagan doctrine, the Bible traces all human sinfulness to the fact that Adam and Eve sinned. Adam, as the head and father of the human race, is important not only for his own sin, but because in Adam we all sinned. The Genesis account also teaches that God’s judgment on that sin has cosmic effects.

Molnar writes that despite the rise of Christianity a pagan influence persisted underground and in the fourteenth century onward to our own time it has grown increasingly coherent, interconnected, organized and assertive. In the twentieth century the pagan influence and its’ evolutionary account of origins is so pervasive and seductive that Westerners are increasingly turning from Christianity to seek meaning, salvation, and spiritual powers in pagan spirituality and the occult.

Though the theory of evolution has not captured the hearts and minds of the vast mainstream of American Christians this good news is only for a short time, said Dr. Albert Mohler. And this is because Christians do not know what evolutionary theory really is. Nor do they have any:

” understanding of the Bible’s message of creation and redemption. We have not only a failure to connect the dots; in too many churches we have a failure to teach the basic truths that will be dots we might want to connect….Doctrinal illiteracy has infected much of evangelicalism, where experience seems to rule over knowledge, and intuition seems to dominate over true intellectual engagement. This bad news gets worse, because generation by generation there will be a greater acceptance of naturalism and evolution simply because the younger generation is so steeped in the educational process and in a secular culture where that’s taken for granted.” (Creation and Redemption: A Conversation with Albert Mohler, interview with Lael Weinberger, creation.com )

[Alamo-Girl]

What an awesome and majestic God we worship!!!

Amen. Praise God!!!

And yes indeed, it is the "universal now" we had previously discussed. Sadly, I forgot that term which is far more appropriate than the term "eternal now."

And I do hope you will consider doing that multidimensional graphic because it is such an important - and difficult - concept in understanding God's Name I AM.

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and that providential photograph, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!

[newfreep]

God creationist BUMP

[Alamo-Girl]

Unless my understanding of your stated view is incorrect, what it appears to be saying is that Adams’ fall was from spirit into matter. If this is so, then it is similar in many ways to Western pagan, Gnostic, and Eastern views.

I'm saying that Adam was banished to mortality at the top of Genesis 4 - that his existence before that was in the spiritual realm. As evidence, the tree of life is in the midst of the Garden of Eden which is Paradise.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. – Genesis 2:9

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. – Revelation 2:7

Whether my beliefs have any counterpart in Western pagan, Gnostic, and Eastern views is irrelevant to me. That many belief systems have a form of the golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - does not invalidate it in Judeo/Christian belief.

My concern is the Word of God, Jesus Christ, and the words of God in Scripture.

Adam was sown into corruption. And he was the first sown into corruption.

So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. - I Cor 15:42-49

I truly cannot say whether, upon banishment, Adam's soul was enfleshed into an existing creature's fleshy body or whether he brought his own fleshy body or was given a new one. Likewise, I cannot say whether the spiritual realm intersects the physical realm in reference to the Garden of Eden, the Temple, the Holy Mountain and the Ark of Covenant - or whether the earthy was a type of the heavenly.

Some Jewish mystics believe the firmament of Genesis 1 is not geometric but rather a boundary separating the spiritual from the physical, i.e. that the spiritual and physical co-exist in the same space. If one were able to cross the boundary, he could appear any where or when, e.g.

Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. And this [is] the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. - Daniel 5:24-25

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. - Mark 9:4

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:59

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. - John 20:26

But I can say that Adam was sown into corruption. That does not mean earthy=evil, heavenly=good - after all, Satan was in heaven and Jesus was in the earth.

However, it does mean that but for Christ we would be dead, body and soul.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. - Romans 8:9-10

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:18

And again,

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. - I Cor 15:20-22

The Catholic Church does not reject evolution and, as I recall, sees Adam as the first ensouled man.

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - Genesis 2:7

And Christ is God enfleshed.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35

And again,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. - Romans 5:12-14

Obviously I have serious problems with evolution per se because information (successful communication), autonomy, semiosis, inertia, etc. cannot be explained by natural causes and every attempt sounds like a "just so" story. Nevertheless, I am not threatened by such theories.

My faith is built on the Person Jesus Christ not any scientific theory or the debunking of any such theory.

But I do not expect anyone else to see things the way I do.

God's Name is I AM.

[hosepipe]

About this subject “time”.. and eternity, past, present, future..

It seems to me “time” would only be important to creatures that “DIED”...
For if entities lived forever, time would not be so important a thing..
Because there would be few time limits..
and no lineal time.. being replaced by “timing”...

Timing would be important even in eternity.. as in a waveform..

[hosepipe]

[ Evolutionary thinking is neither new nor particularly scientific. The very ancient Enuma Elish, though mainly concerned with the exploits of Marduk, is in fact an Assyrian-Babylonian evolutionary cosmogony speaking of how all things evolved out of pre-existing primordial matter, that is, a watery abyss. Moving forward to ancient Egypt we find the Sun-God Ra speaking of how he emerged out of primordial matter he calls Nu. ]

No doubt about it... Explaining how humanity came to be (other than the third human on earth coming from two other ones).. would take a very large and diversionary Tale or Yarn.. Spiced with complexity and mystery's left to imagination.. this Yarn could lead many off into a Cul D'Sac.. Absolutely confident this Yarn was "true"... and not fiction..

I orefer to believe the third human on this planet came from two other ones.. call me hard-head.. simple minded.. if you will...

[MHGinTN]

Selah!

[TXnMA]

Thank you dear Sister in Christ for your (as always) kind and encouraging words!

A-G:"And I do hope you will consider doing that multidimensional graphic because it is such an important - and difficult - concept in understanding God's Name I AM."

I don't know whether to rejoice -- or weep -- over that encouraging word... So far, I have been unsuccessful in re-locating the Canvas file in which I was creating making that graphic. My fear is that It may have been stored on a Western Digital external drive that recently ceased to function...:-(

IIRC, I had it labeled across the bottom i(looking forward in time) from God's Creation reference-frame perspective, and across the top (looking backward in time) from Man's geo-centered reference-frame perspective.

FWIW, I seem to recall you or BB commenting on my labeling the present era as "The age of Man" or some such...

BTW, would one of you have a copy of the JPEG of it I sent you? AHA! if I sent it to you on FR, I had to have put a copy online on my domain -- and, here it is:

Unfortunately, this is only the 2-D "outline" version. I know I expanded it into perspective 3-D, filled with astronomical objects and such, and with a circular-section "slice" shown to represent the "Universal NOW"...

IIRC, I was considering postulating the advent of Christ as the end of God's seventh day, and showing us in the "church age" as His eighth day... (My justification for that postulate is that, with the advent of our Lord, God became manifestly and indisputably active in the events of His creation, and was/is no longer in a passive, resting mode.) [I KNOW for a fact that He is actively guiding and impacting my life -- and yours...]

I struggle with the concept that God ever completely removed His guiding hand from His creation (put it "on autopilot", controlled only by his designed-in "laws"). But, if he, indeed, did so, it most likely was during that seventh "rest day"...

BTW, IMHO, a vertical line anywhere across that diagram would represent a single, dimensioness example of a "Universal NOW".

The concept of God's "Universal NOW" is clear in my mind. I hope I am able to resurrect and improve my work to graphically share my concept of it with other Believers!

His Name is I AM!

[TXnMA]

Argh! did it again... intended to ping you to #48...

kathsua, as OP, please consider yourself copied to all of my comments..

[Alamo-Girl]

Hmmm ... "timing" is a very interesting way to put it.

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear hosepipe!