Skip to comments.Science points to God
Posted on 07/19/2012 5:48:29 PM PDT by kathsua
I appreciated the comments of Leroy Stucky (Western Front, June 28) defending the biblical view of the beginning of mankind, the world and the universe, otherwise known as creationism.
Creationism will always be a very difficult doctrine to accept, as long as people exclude the supernatural influence and presence of an almighty God who, in my opinion, started the whole process.
I have never read an issue of The American Spectator magazine, but recently at the library I happened to pick up the May 2012 issue. The magazine, I found out, is very conservative, but not necessary Christian. However, included in this issue was an article titled "Intelligent Design at the University Club," written by Tom Bethell, senior editor of The American Spectator.
Without being preachy or "Bible-thumping," Mr. Bethell argued from a scientific perspective for the dynamic influence of God in the creation of mankind, etc. He defended his argument from several vantage points, and I will mention only one:
"Stephen Meyer, the director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, spoke the other evening at a forum called 'Socrates in the City.' ... In his talk, inquiring how life first appeared from simpler pre-existing chemicals, Meyer emphasized the concept of biological information, which is embedded in DNA.
"Think of it as analogous to software code. ... Software contains instructions that direct computers to accomplish various functions. Likewise, DNA contains instructions for the assembly of tiny machines called proteins, which perform vital functions within every cell."
Meyer went on to explain that "unbelieving" scientists have no explanation as to how the proper information got into the DNA molecule - a gargantuan task, as he went on to explain. Simply put, it certain seems that Someone had to "program" this DNA computer.
In short, as every microbiologist should know, the "simple cell" is the most complex "piece of machinery" ever investigated.
That's one reason why I am a believer in the God of creation, the One who created all forms of life, including man, who also created planet Earth, the solar system and all the galaxies.
AG: I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began
Spirited: Unless my understanding of your stated view is incorrect, what it appears to be saying is that Adams’ fall was from spirit into matter. If this is so, then it is similar in many ways to Western pagan, Gnostic, and Eastern views.
For your consideration, here is what Catholic philosopher Thomas Molnar, now-deceased Visiting Professor of Philosophy at Yale University has to say about this view in his widely-acclaimed, “The Pagan Temptation.”
Molnar reveals that from Plato to Plotinus, it was held as axiomatic that the fall of spirit/souls into the material realm was either inexplicable or explained as punishment. At any rate it was a plunge from being as one with or an aspect of the Divine Substance into the material realm of distinctions, or binary.
In Against the Christians (frag. 77) Porphyry, disciple of Plotinus and Arnobius, writes:
How can one admit that the divine should become an embryo, that after his birth he is put in swaddling clothes, that he is soiled with blood and bile, and worse things yet? (The Pagan Temptation, Thomas Molnar, p. 27)
In Adversus nationes (2.37) Arnobius complains:
If souls were of the Lords race They would never come to these terrestrial places (and) inhabit opaque bodies and (be) mixed with humors and blood, in receptacles of excrement, in vases of urine. (ibid)
As all things are aspects of (in contiunity with) the Divine Substance by whatever name it goes, i.e., watery abyss, Nu, chaos, then human beings have a share of the Divine substance. The fall then is into evil matter and binary. The body being matter it is perceived as a tomb, a receptacle of excrement, from which spirit must escape that it can become one with, or be reabsorbed into, the Divine Substance. Salvation is reabsorption.
Molnar notes that the closest pagan thinkers came to Incarnation was with a purely negative connotation in the teachings of Pythagoras and Empedocles. They taught that souls fallen from the divine Substance are subsequently incarnated in animal forms as punishment.
Incarnation of soul in animal form and then into another form and so on is the basis of evolutionary thinking, fatalism, determinism, reincarnation, karma.
Pre-Christian and early Christian Gnostics were more directly influenced by Eastern systems than were Greek thinkers. The leaders of the Gnostic movementValentiunus, Basilides, Arnobius and otherstaught that the world and bodies are the work of the devil (Yahweh) who holds the Divine Substance (good God..Lucifer) in bondage. Gnostics, or Pneumatics, possess the secret gnosis of escaping this evil world so as to be reabsorbed into the divine substance. Since matter is evil and reabsorption salvation then procreation is evil because it produces more earthly suffering by trapping divine sparks within bodies.
The similarity between Greek and Upanishadic doctrines is striking said Molnar. The Upanishads teach that souls are aspects or particles of the totality. The fall of souls is into bodies. This cosmic rupture is a state of misery for the separated souls because in the body they become limited and divided into individuals, male and female. Rather than oneness (wholeness) there is a binary system of opposites which must be eliminated:
The foremost binary is the distinction between the Creator and the creature. Other binaries then fall like dominosthe binary of right and wrong, for example. We must beware of thinking of good and evil as absolute opposites, says a leading theorist. Modern psychologists tell us that a binary view of reality (as made up of opposites) produces guilt, the hallmark of neurosis. The Hindu notion of Advaita, not two, dominates spirituality and non-dual spirituality is taught even in some evangelical schools. Lesbian activists ask: Can We Put an End to the Gender Binary? (The Advocate.com) because there is no one way a person should be. (May 9, 2012: The Official End of Christendom, Dr. Peter Jones)
Atomists such as Epicurus taught that the all that exists is the void and matter, and that human beings, their intelligence and volition, are an evolved accident of chance. Everything is void and matter, therefore first principles, eternal ideas, souls, spirits, divine reason and afterlife are absurdities. Only reason is left, but reason is active only because sensations (i.e., firing of neurons, chemical interactions) stimulate it.
Epicuruss materialist teachings are the basis of all materialist systems, including the Wests contemporary version, scientific matierialism and its main doctrine, biological evolution.
In contrast to pagan evolutionism, Christianity teaches that the supernatural God is the Ultimate Thinker, the living, personal Creator who called all things into being from nothingcreation ex nihilo. He creates all souls individual and immortal. They are not mere aspects of an unthinking, impersonal substance, but rather they belong to the supernatural God Who speaks:
Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die. Ezekiel 18:4
Again in contrast to pagan doctrine, the Bible traces all human sinfulness to the fact that Adam and Eve sinned. Adam, as the head and father of the human race, is important not only for his own sin, but because in Adam we all sinned. The Genesis account also teaches that Gods judgment on that sin has cosmic effects.
Molnar writes that despite the rise of Christianity a pagan influence persisted underground and in the fourteenth century onward to our own time it has grown increasingly coherent, interconnected, organized and assertive. In the twentieth century the pagan influence and its evolutionary account of origins is so pervasive and seductive that Westerners are increasingly turning from Christianity to seek meaning, salvation, and spiritual powers in pagan spirituality and the occult.
Though the theory of evolution has not captured the hearts and minds of the vast mainstream of American Christians this good news is only for a short time, said Dr. Albert Mohler. And this is because Christians do not know what evolutionary theory really is. Nor do they have any:
understanding of the Bibles message of creation and redemption. We have not only a failure to connect the dots; in too many churches we have a failure to teach the basic truths that will be dots we might want to connect .Doctrinal illiteracy has infected much of evangelicalism, where experience seems to rule over knowledge, and intuition seems to dominate over true intellectual engagement. This bad news gets worse, because generation by generation there will be a greater acceptance of naturalism and evolution simply because the younger generation is so steeped in the educational process and in a secular culture where thats taken for granted. (Creation and Redemption: A Conversation with Albert Mohler, interview with Lael Weinberger, creation.com )
And yes indeed, it is the "universal now" we had previously discussed. Sadly, I forgot that term which is far more appropriate than the term "eternal now."
And I do hope you will consider doing that multidimensional graphic because it is such an important - and difficult - concept in understanding God's Name I AM.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights and that providential photograph, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!
God creationist BUMP
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7
My concern is the Word of God, Jesus Christ, and the words of God in Scripture.
Adam was sown into corruption. And he was the first sown into corruption.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. - I Cor 15:42-49
Some Jewish mystics believe the firmament of Genesis 1 is not geometric but rather a boundary separating the spiritual from the physical, i.e. that the spiritual and physical co-exist in the same space. If one were able to cross the boundary, he could appear any where or when, e.g.
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. - Mark 9:4
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:59
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. - John 20:26
However, it does mean that but for Christ we would be dead, body and soul.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:18
My faith is built on the Person Jesus Christ not any scientific theory or the debunking of any such theory.
But I do not expect anyone else to see things the way I do.
God's Name is I AM.
About this subject “time”.. and eternity, past, present, future..
It seems to me “time” would only be important to creatures that “DIED”...
For if entities lived forever, time would not be so important a thing..
Because there would be few time limits..
and no lineal time.. being replaced by “timing”...
Timing would be important even in eternity.. as in a waveform..
No doubt about it... Explaining how humanity came to be (other than the third human on earth coming from two other ones).. would take a very large and diversionary Tale or Yarn.. Spiced with complexity and mystery's left to imagination.. this Yarn could lead many off into a Cul D'Sac.. Absolutely confident this Yarn was "true"... and not fiction..
I orefer to believe the third human on this planet came from two other ones.. call me hard-head.. simple minded.. if you will...
A-G:"And I do hope you will consider doing that multidimensional graphic because it is such an important - and difficult - concept in understanding God's Name I AM."
I don't know whether to rejoice -- or weep -- over that encouraging word... So far, I have been unsuccessful in re-locating the Canvas file in which I was
creating making that graphic. My fear is that It may have been stored on a Western Digital external drive that recently ceased to function...:-(
IIRC, I had it labeled across the bottom i(looking forward in time) from God's Creation reference-frame perspective, and across the top (looking backward in time) from Man's geo-centered reference-frame perspective.
FWIW, I seem to recall you or BB commenting on my labeling the present era as "The age of Man" or some such...
BTW, would one of you have a copy of the JPEG of it I sent you? AHA! if I sent it to you on FR, I had to have put a copy online on my domain -- and, here it is:
Unfortunately, this is only the 2-D "outline" version. I know I expanded it into perspective 3-D, filled with astronomical objects and such, and with a circular-section "slice" shown to represent the "Universal NOW"...
IIRC, I was considering postulating the advent of Christ as the end of God's seventh day, and showing us in the "church age" as His eighth day... (My justification for that postulate is that, with the advent of our Lord, God became manifestly and indisputably active in the events of His creation, and was/is no longer in a passive, resting mode.) [I KNOW for a fact that He is actively guiding and impacting my life -- and yours...]
I struggle with the concept that God ever completely removed His guiding hand from His creation (put it "on autopilot", controlled only by his designed-in "laws"). But, if he, indeed, did so, it most likely was during that seventh "rest day"...
BTW, IMHO, a vertical line anywhere across that diagram would represent a single, dimensioness example of a "Universal NOW".
The concept of God's "Universal NOW" is clear in my mind. I hope I am able to resurrect and improve my work to graphically share my concept of it with other Believers!
His Name is I AM!
kathsua, as OP, please consider yourself copied to all of my comments..
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear hosepipe!
I'm thrilled you found it!
One concept I'd love to see illustrated in your graphic is that a photon sent from a star to an observer some million light years away might spend 10 million years getting there because space/time itself expands while the photon is en route.
Perhaps the bottom of the graphic showing Days 1 through 6 could be proportionally changed using Dr. Schroeder's calculations in The Age of the Universe:
(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)
The calculations come out to be as follows:
The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.
The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.
The fourth 24 hour day ― one billion years.
The fifth 24 hour day ― one-half billion years.
The sixth 24 hour day ― one-quarter billion years.
I’m into timing... God provides “gifts”..
You don't ask for much, do you? '-) Here I am, struggling to represent four dimensions on a flat plane -- and you request dynamic expansion, time dilation, and exponential time, as well!!
Whoeeee! Nothing like a nice challenge... ;-}
No wonder you're one of my favorite fans! :-)
BTW, I've now found a mockup of my 3~4-D attempt, and am trying to add in representation of multiple (linear) ray/photon paths across distance|time (reaching us, at our "now"). When I get that done, I'll share it for comments before I formalize it further.
I'm so sorry. It's just wishful thinking on my part. If you'd rather stay away from those subjects, that's fine by me.
Thank you again, oh so very much dear brother in Christ, for all of your insights and encouragements!
You suggestions are all worthy goals, and I hope to be able to work some of them in... But you can only push a graphic analogy so far... especially if you are merely trying to explain (in four dimensions) everything that is -- or ever was -- (and praising the ONE Who made and controls it all) ...on a single 17" flat screen...! LOL!!
I'll soon ship the URL for my rough-draft working model to you via FReepmail, and we can discuss modifications of the final version or -- more likely -- other, supplementary illustrations...
Believe me, just attempting something like this is a most thought-provoking and educational exercise... ;-)
But, it has also become a strikingly meaningful experience of worship and praise!
His name is "I AM", and He is beyond wondrous!!!
FReepMail (with goodies) for you...
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