Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

To: spirited irish; betty boop; Thermopylae; AU72; YHAOS; marron; metmom; TXnMA; spunkets
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear spirited irish!

I do appreciate Young Earth Creationism when one views Genesis 1 and 2 describing primarily the physical creation.

However, your point that God would not have created evil is neither here-nor-there with me:

The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. – Proverbs 16:4

God made the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 2) and I’m confident He did so for His own purpose.

Indeed, it seems to me that a person cannot truly appreciate light if he had never seen darkness, good if he had never seen evil, courage/fear, joy/sorrow and so on. And I truly believe our time here on earth is like a base camp for eternity – that we learn more and better through these contrasts.

I am both a Young Earth Creationist and also an Old Earth Creationist. And I certainly do not expect anyone else to agree with me – but, for the record, here is what I see and why:

At our present space/time coordinates, the universe is observed to be about 15 billion years old. However, when we consider the inflationary model and general relativity (warping of space/time) - we can also see that the universe is about a week old (equivalent earth time) at the inception space/time coordinates (Schroeder et al.)

Note: space/time does not pre-exist, it is created as the universe expands. Areas of high gravity such as black holes, centers of spiral galaxies, stars, planets are like indentations in the fabric of space/time. The deeper the indentation, the slower time elapses. For instance, while one week elapses near a space/time indentation such as a black hole, forty years may elapse on earth. The equivalency principle applies, i.e. the faster a thing moves, the slower time elapses.

For more: Time Warps an Everyday Occurrence and Equivalence Principle

I also perceive a relativistic change of "observer" perspective in Scripture.

More specifically, Genesis chapters 1 to 3 are from the inception perspective. The Creator is the only observer of Creation ex nihilo and He speaks to both the physical and the spiritual as the Creation, the earthly and the heavenly. To presuppose an earthly space/time perspective would result in needless contradiction such as plants on Day 3 before the sun and solar system on Day 4 (emphasis mine:)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Genesis 1:1

These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. – Genesis 2:4-5

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. - Hebrews 11:3

Indeed, I perceive the creation of Adam and the Garden of Eden in the spiritual realm and thus see no contradiction at all in Genesis 1 to 3. The tree of life is in the middle of the Garden of Eden and Paradise (see below) and therefore not strictly physical.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. – Genesis 2:9

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. – Revelation 2:7

I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began. Or to put it another way, I do not perceive Adam as strictly physical.

At the top of Genesis 4, after Adam is banished to mortality, the perspective changes to Adamic man, to our space/time coordinates. Adam's clock starts ticking.

The first indication of the change in observer perspective is in the curse itself (emphasis mine)

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [literally, muwth muwth or “death death”]. – Genesis 2:17

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. – Genesis 5:5

That is not some vague reference but is explicitly revealed here:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. – 2 Peter 3:8

That is also the Jewish interpretation (Sanhedrin 97a; Avodah Zarah Sa) of Psalms 90:4:

For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

Adam was not made for a mere physical existence like a bacteria, daffodil, fish or cow. He doesn’t “belong” in the physical realm and he knows it. But because he was banished to mortality, this peculiar creature made for Paradise/Eden, having immortality at his finger tips, now is grounded in the physical universe whose life forms were his to name.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. – Genesis 2:19

Death entered the world because of Adam, not just physical death but muwth muwth – death death (Gen 2:17) - not just the death of his physical body, but the death of his living soul.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Romans 5:12

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

Adam, by Jewish and early Christian beliefs, was appointed a week (corresponding to Creation week) - or seven thousand years, the last of which is Christ's thousand year reign on earth, the Lord's Sabbath (Revelation.) The Sabbath is also prophecy:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

To illustrate that it was an early Christian belief, I offer the first excerpt below from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5 which is not part of the canon and is not to be confused with the late sixteenth century Islamic fraud, “The Gospel of Barnabas.”

The Epistle of Barnabas dates back to the first few centuries after Christ’s resurrection. It is quoted by Clement of Alexandria and also mentioned by Origen. It was part of the Codex Sinaiticus but is not part of the Catholic canon today. Nevertheless, it reveals the discernment of these early Christians.

He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of the Creation, "And God made in six days the works of His hands and on the seventh day He made an end, and He rested on the seventh day, and He sanctified it. Consider, my children what this signifies: That He made an end in six days. The meaning of it is this: that in six thousand years the Creator will bring all things to an end, for with Him one day is a thousand years. He Himself testifies, saying, Behold the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, all things shall be accomplished. And He rested on the seventh day: He means this, that when His Son shall come He will destroy the season of the wicked one, and will judge the godless, and will change the sun and the moon and the stars, and then He will truly rest on the seventh day.

It is also recorded in the first verse, chapter 33 of 2 Enoch which is the Slavic version of that book (also not part of the canon) but nevertheless showing the beliefs of early Christians:

And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth day should be the first-created after my work, and that (the first seven) revolve in the form of the seventh thousand, and that at the beginning of the eighth thousand there should be a time of not-counting, endless, with neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

In sum, the Jewish mystics and these early Christians (and I) perceive that Adamic man, upon being banished to mortality, was appointed a total of 7 days or 7,000 years. The last day of the week, the Sabbath, in the Christian view is Christ’s millennial reign on earth.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. – Revelation 20:4-6

And again,

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple. But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. – Matt 12:5-8

My understanding of the matter does not at all conflict with Adam’s role in the Fall and it is not at odds with physics or physical cosmology.

Then again, I do not expect anyone else to agree with me. LOLOL!

God’s Name is I AM.

23 posted on 07/20/2012 12:18:46 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]

To: Alamo-Girl

AG: I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began

Spirited: Church Fathers such as Augustine and later Doctors such as Aquinas would disagree with your position. Adam was not a pure spirit for from the beginning he had a material body within which was fully embedded a spirit/soul.

His knowledge was of two kinds. First, by means of abstraction from his sense perceptions, and second, from the powers and faculties of his spirit-soul which in its’ prefall condition reached out beyond the body. (St Thomas)

In “Occult Phenomena,” Alois Wiesinger, O.C.S.O. describes Adams prefall spirit-soul gifts in terms of “certain angelic powers (that allowed for participation) in the nature of pure spirits.” (p. 79)

From this the holy Fathers deduced that Adam, “like the mystics, intuitively beheld God, the creation of the world, and the purpose thereof, the principles of law and morals and all that was necessary for him as head and instructor of the human race.” (ibid, p. 81)

Hence Adam possessed an angelic intelligence shown “particularly in the fact that he gave names to the animals,” an act highly rated by St. Augustine as an act of the highest wisdom.

By means of Adams spiritual powers he was able to avoid all dangers to his health and so achieved freedom from suffering and death, for though God created man incorruptible, Adams immortality was “not that of the blessed in heaven, who can no longer die (for Adam there) was simply the possibility of not dying. Our first parents, thanks to their spiritual powers, were able to avoid the causes of death, which are either external, like the mischances of nature, or internal, like sickness...” (ibid, p. 82)

God has said “I am the Lord” (Levitcus) In this light can be seen the gravity of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. The forbidden fruit symbolizes Gods’ necessary demand that man and all of creation remains dependent on Him, for life is of God only.

By eating the fruit the human race refuses this recognition by the “act of appropriating to his own use the fruits of the tree in the middle of Paradise, and in doing so makes use of creation to his own desires, as though he were himself the lord of all. This act of disobedience represented the complete reversal of order (evil), an act of rebellion and revolt by which the Creator was rejected and condemned (as Creator of suffering and death) and the creature unlawfully assumed the mastery.” (ibid, p. 92)

The consequences of this act were terrible. Adam and Eve lost the “love and friendship of God...the sanctifying grace and the infused virtues, lost all the gifts...designed to elevate, strengthen and perfect his nature. That nature therefore now remained dependent on itself and, being thus weakened, came under the domination of matter.” (p. 92)

With the loss of supernatural and preternatural gifts the material bodies of Adam and Eve within which their souls were embedded became subject to corruption, that is decay and death (Law of Entropy). And their wills, which had previously maintained dominion over the body, allowing it freedom from concupiscence, ceased to be immune, thus concupiscence drew it toward all things opposite to the nature and character of God, and this is what we call sin, or evil.

24 posted on 07/21/2012 4:26:30 AM PDT by spirited irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies ]

To: Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; betty boop; Thermopylae; AU72; YHAOS; marron; metmom; spunkets
Thank you, Dear Sister, for the ping to this thread (which, as you know, addresses one of my own, deep and abiding, personal interests)!

As usual, I find myself in general agreement with your excellent essay/posts. Also, as usual, (lacking, rergetfully, the grace with which you address those with differing views) I have entered the discussion by refuting something that I found to be distressing...

For some reason, the binary "my way or the highway" position-taking that pervades these "crevo" threads offends me more and more as I proceed beyond my "threescore and ten" milestone...

Blessings to all -- but be advised that a 3/4-centenarian. believer+scientist curmudgeon has joined the discussion! '-)

30 posted on 07/21/2012 3:20:23 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies ]

To: Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; betty boop; YHAOS

AG: I perceive Adam was created in the spiritual realm before he was banished to mortality, the physical realm, and his mortal calendar/clock began

Spirited: Unless my understanding of your stated view is incorrect, what it appears to be saying is that Adams’ fall was from spirit into matter. If this is so, then it is similar in many ways to Western pagan, Gnostic, and Eastern views.

For your consideration, here is what Catholic philosopher Thomas Molnar, now-deceased Visiting Professor of Philosophy at Yale University has to say about this view in his widely-acclaimed, “The Pagan Temptation.”

Molnar reveals that from Plato to Plotinus, it was held as axiomatic that the fall of spirit/souls into the material realm was either inexplicable or explained as punishment. At any rate it was a plunge from being as one with or an aspect of the Divine Substance into the material realm of distinctions, or binary.

In “Against the Christians” (frag. 77) Porphyry, disciple of Plotinus and Arnobius, writes:

“How can one admit that the divine should become an embryo, that after his birth he is put in swaddling clothes, that he is soiled with blood and bile, and worse things yet?” (The Pagan Temptation, Thomas Molnar, p. 27)

In “Adversus nationes” (2.37) Arnobius complains:

“If souls were of the Lord’s race…They would never come to these terrestrial places (and) inhabit opaque bodies and (be) mixed with humors and blood, in receptacles of excrement, in vases of urine.” (ibid)

As all things are aspects of (in contiunity with) the Divine Substance by whatever name it goes, i.e., watery abyss, Nu, chaos, then human beings have a share of the Divine substance. The fall then is into evil matter and binary. The body being matter it is perceived as a tomb, a receptacle of excrement, from which spirit must escape that it can become one with, or be reabsorbed into, the Divine Substance. Salvation is reabsorption.

Molnar notes that the closest pagan thinkers came to Incarnation was with a purely negative connotation in the teachings of Pythagoras and Empedocles. They taught that souls fallen from the divine Substance are subsequently incarnated in animal forms as punishment.

Incarnation of soul in animal form and then into another form and so on is the basis of evolutionary thinking, fatalism, determinism, reincarnation, karma.

Pre-Christian and early Christian Gnostics were more directly influenced by Eastern systems than were Greek thinkers. The leaders of the Gnostic movement–Valentiunus, Basilides, Arnobius and others—taught that the world and bodies are the work of the devil (Yahweh) who holds the Divine Substance (good God..Lucifer) in bondage. Gnostics, or Pneumatics, possess the secret gnosis of escaping this evil world so as to be reabsorbed into the divine substance. Since matter is evil and reabsorption salvation then procreation is evil because it produces more earthly suffering by trapping divine sparks within bodies.

The similarity between Greek and Upanishadic doctrines is striking said Molnar. The Upanishads teach that souls are aspects or particles of the totality. The fall of souls is into bodies. This cosmic rupture is a state of misery for the separated souls because in the body they become limited and divided into individuals, male and female. Rather than oneness (wholeness) there is a binary system of opposites which must be eliminated:

” The foremost “binary” is the distinction between the Creator and the creature. Other binaries then fall like dominos—the binary of right and wrong, for example. “We must beware of thinking of good and evil as absolute opposites,” says a leading theorist. Modern psychologists tell us that a binary view of reality (as made up of opposites) produces guilt, the hallmark of neurosis. The Hindu notion of Advaita, “not two,” dominates spirituality and “non-dual spirituality” is taught even in some “evangelical” schools. Lesbian activists ask: “Can We Put an End to the Gender Binary?” (The because “there is no one way a person should be.” (May 9, 2012: The Official End of Christendom, Dr. Peter Jones)

Atomists such as Epicurus taught that the “all that exists” is the void and matter, and that human beings, their intelligence and volition, are an evolved accident of chance. Everything is void and matter, therefore first principles, eternal ideas, souls, spirits, divine reason and afterlife are absurdities. Only reason is left, but reason is active only because sensations (i.e., firing of neurons, chemical interactions) stimulate it.

Epicurus’s materialist teachings are the basis of all materialist systems, including the West’s contemporary version, scientific matierialism and its main doctrine, biological evolution.

In contrast to pagan evolutionism, Christianity teaches that the supernatural God is the Ultimate Thinker, the living, personal Creator who called all things into being from nothing—creation ex nihilo. He creates all souls individual and immortal. They are not mere aspects of an unthinking, impersonal substance, but rather they belong to the supernatural God Who speaks:

“Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4

Again in contrast to pagan doctrine, the Bible traces all human sinfulness to the fact that Adam and Eve sinned. Adam, as the head and father of the human race, is important not only for his own sin, but because in Adam we all sinned. The Genesis account also teaches that God’s judgment on that sin has cosmic effects.

Molnar writes that despite the rise of Christianity a pagan influence persisted underground and in the fourteenth century onward to our own time it has grown increasingly coherent, interconnected, organized and assertive. In the twentieth century the pagan influence and its’ evolutionary account of origins is so pervasive and seductive that Westerners are increasingly turning from Christianity to seek meaning, salvation, and spiritual powers in pagan spirituality and the occult.

Though the theory of evolution has not captured the hearts and minds of the vast mainstream of American Christians this good news is only for a short time, said Dr. Albert Mohler. And this is because Christians do not know what evolutionary theory really is. Nor do they have any:

” understanding of the Bible’s message of creation and redemption. We have not only a failure to connect the dots; in too many churches we have a failure to teach the basic truths that will be dots we might want to connect….Doctrinal illiteracy has infected much of evangelicalism, where experience seems to rule over knowledge, and intuition seems to dominate over true intellectual engagement. This bad news gets worse, because generation by generation there will be a greater acceptance of naturalism and evolution simply because the younger generation is so steeped in the educational process and in a secular culture where that’s taken for granted.” (Creation and Redemption: A Conversation with Albert Mohler, interview with Lael Weinberger, )

41 posted on 07/22/2012 7:41:48 AM PDT by spirited irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson