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Vanity: August 1-4 The Week Europe Committed Suicide
Vanity ^ | August 3, 2012 | Me

Posted on 08/03/2012 7:19:07 AM PDT by C19fan

This week the dominoes started to fall with Germany declaring war on Russia on August 1. Today the 3rd, Germany declares war on France. Tomorrow Britain will declare war on Germany for violating the Treaty of London guaranteeing Belgium neutrality. A century of technological progress will be turned on its creators. The self-confidence of Europe will be shattered to be replaced by the nihilism and moral decadence that we still live with today. I am currently reading Anna Karenina. In the back of my mind this world so brought to life by Tolstoy will be destroyed within the lifetimes of many of the characters in the novel.


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: france; germany; greatwar; worldwar1

1 posted on 08/03/2012 7:19:13 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

Admins PLEASE fix the link, I would like to read the entire article.


2 posted on 08/03/2012 7:26:08 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: C19fan

WW1: The gift that keeps on giving the world headaches.

The most powerful and important nations in the west decided to waste their people in a useless fight based on some stupid bravado, misplaced nationalism, and silly treaties. Leaving nothing but a festering wound that turned into an even worse conflict that finally broke the back of the west and put us in the awful spot we are in today.

And why the U.S. decided to get roped in will never make sense to me.


3 posted on 08/03/2012 7:28:34 AM PDT by VanDeKoik
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To: US Navy Vet

There is no link. Just something I wrote down. I thought it would nice to have a place for people to talk about this horrible war that is about to destroy Europe.


4 posted on 08/03/2012 7:28:38 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: VanDeKoik
WW1: The gift that keeps on giving the world headaches.

Like Iraq and Syria.

5 posted on 08/03/2012 7:30:33 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: VanDeKoik
And why the U.S. decided to get roped in will never make sense to me.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

HL Mencken

6 posted on 08/03/2012 7:33:10 AM PDT by PGR88
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To: C19fan

have you ever read:
Wilson’s War/http://www.amazon.com/Wilsons-War-Woodrow-Blunder-Hitler/dp/1400082366/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344004339&sr=8-1&keywords=wilson%27s+war
Or
Guns of August/http://www.amazon.com/Guns-August-Pulitzer-Prize-Winning-Outbreak/dp/0345476093/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1344004379&sr=1-1&keywords=guns+of+august ?


7 posted on 08/03/2012 7:34:00 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: C19fan

At sundown on Aug 3, 1914, Edward Gray, British Foreign Secretary at the time, is said to have remarked “The lamps are going out all over Europe. We shall not see them lit again in our time”.

The next morning, Germany invaded Belgium on their way to France.

Gray was right; Europe never recovered from the Great War.


8 posted on 08/03/2012 7:34:00 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: US Navy Vet

I have not read those. I did read Keegan’s book, who just just passed away, on the war.


9 posted on 08/03/2012 7:37:19 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: VanDeKoik

Can’t help but to wonder how history changes if we wouldn’t have entered either war. Especially the 2nd. I think the Nazis would have prevailed, or at least survived on, controlling much of Europe if we hadn’t intervened. Without the war on two fronts, Germany might have held on to much of Russia. If they would have taken Russia completely, our ‘Cold War’ wouldn’t have happened. Who knows what the world would have looked like then. The last half of the 20th Century would have surely looked very different.


10 posted on 08/03/2012 7:39:20 AM PDT by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: C19fan

2 things that caused WW II:
1. The POS “Treaty of Versailles” AND
2. The German “Stab-in-the-back myth”

Individual who deserve a SPECIAL Place in HELL:
Erich Ludendorff
Paul von Hindenburg
David Lloyd George
Georges Clemenceau AND certainly
Woodrow Wilson


11 posted on 08/03/2012 7:43:37 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: KoRn

If we hadn’t entered the Great War, Germany would have won, there would have been no Treaty of Versailles, no German reparations, and no ax for disgruntled Austrian painters to grind.

Ignoring all the above, had Germany not declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor and we had managed to stay out of the European component of that war, the Germans would probably have conquered Russia to the Urals, and it would have settled out there.

That’s my guess.


12 posted on 08/03/2012 7:45:18 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: C19fan

Do you think more people are wanting to learn more about WW I and it’s causes or it is just History “Nuts” like us? Have you visited the National WW I Museum in KC, MO yet?


13 posted on 08/03/2012 7:50:28 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: US Navy Vet

Add “Kaiser” (V)Wilhelm(Queen Vic’s Grandkid) to the list!


14 posted on 08/03/2012 7:55:06 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: US Navy Vet

Never visited the museum. I don’t think many American care because we entered the war so late. It should be interesting to see what happens when the 200th anniversary comes in 2014.


15 posted on 08/03/2012 7:58:38 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: DuncanWaring
If we hadn’t entered the Great War, Germany would have won, there would have been no Treaty of Versailles, no German reparations, and no ax for disgruntled Austrian painters to grind.

No Soviet Union as the Czar would not have been removed.

16 posted on 08/03/2012 7:59:14 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Obamaid has to go.)
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To: KoRn

If we had stayed out of the 1st, Germany likely would have won or fought to a standstill. There would have been a treaty with some face-saving provisions, and territorial or colonial swaps between the sides, and life would have gone on.

The upshot would have been no WW2 as we knew it. Maybe a war between the west and Japan or some colonial war in Africa.


17 posted on 08/03/2012 8:07:32 AM PDT by VanDeKoik
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To: Mike Darancette
If we hadn’t entered the Great War ... No Soviet Union as the Czar would not have been removed.

The Czar abdicated the month before the US entered the war, although he'd essentially consumed all his political capital quite some time before that. The two events are unrelated.

With the US not in the war, it is possible the Germans might have been able to more aggressively attack Russia, and it is certainly possible the Bolsheviks might not have come to power. The Germans probably would have held onto much of Ukraine and western Russia, Baltics, etc., either directly or thru puppet governments.

18 posted on 08/03/2012 8:09:55 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: US Navy Vet

Versailles was a sick joke that the U.S. never should have went along with. It was a dictated peace from two Empires to another that we were too spineless to get up and walk away from when it was presented.


19 posted on 08/03/2012 8:11:11 AM PDT by VanDeKoik
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To: Mike Darancette

“No Soviet Union as the Czar would not have been removed” no he WOULD have been removed eventually just not a soon as 1917.


20 posted on 08/03/2012 8:12:28 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Mike Darancette

On the other hand, Poland may never have regained her independence.


21 posted on 08/03/2012 8:15:33 AM PDT by dfwgator (FUJR (not you, Jim))
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To: VanDeKoik

David Lloyd Geroge and Clemenceau played Wilson like a fiddle. Wilson went along to get his crumbs of the League of Nations. There was a miniseries about the negotiations on History Channel or like network. Wilson was a conquering hero when he entered Paris but squandered it.


22 posted on 08/03/2012 8:15:57 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: VanDeKoik

That “Treaty” was disigned by David Lloyd George and
Georges Clemenceau to PUNISH Germany(I guess looking in the Mirror was just TOO hard for these 2 hypocrites and thier Crown heads(Royalalty ya know)!


23 posted on 08/03/2012 8:16:37 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Mike Darancette

I’m not sure about that one.

The US didn’t even declare war on Germany unto early 1917, and did not have an effective army in Europe for about a year.

The Bolshevik revolution started in late 1917, and had been brewing for a while.

With or without the US, the Czar was probably a goner.


24 posted on 08/03/2012 8:20:19 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Sherman Logan
Russia, and it is certainly possible the Bolsheviks might not have come to power.

Since the Romanovs were family a victorious Germany would have reestablished the Russian Monarchy but not with Nicholas.

25 posted on 08/03/2012 8:23:04 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Obamaid has to go.)
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To: DuncanWaring

The Tsar was almost toppled because of the war with Japan. There is no way once it became evident the war was going to drag on that the Tsar and the incompetent court was going to be able to handle the strain.


26 posted on 08/03/2012 8:23:28 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: Mike Darancette

By as early as 1910 the Russian People were gettting a “Belly-Full” of the Tsar and his WORTHLESS inbred(he was first cousin to Kaiser (V)Wilhelm(Germany) AND a cousin to the King of Englend) BLEEDER family and would have revolted just not a early as 1917. His WORTHLESS “Generals” and a concieted attitude did him in(that and France had been coddling and providing Lenin aide and comfort for years).


27 posted on 08/03/2012 8:24:29 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: C19fan

The Russian Naval Loss @ the Battle of Tushema(sp?) Straight in 1905 was the “Beginning of the End” for Tsar Nick.


28 posted on 08/03/2012 8:26:49 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Mike Darancette

Certainly a possibility.


29 posted on 08/03/2012 8:45:12 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: US Navy Vet
You could say that WWI was a family spat since Kaiser Wilhelm, King George V and Tsar Nicolas II were all cousins
30 posted on 08/03/2012 8:46:39 AM PDT by catman67
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To: C19fan
From the introduction to Unintended Consequences by John Ross:

"History has shown us that government leaders often ignore the fundamental fact that people demand both dignity and freedom. Because of this disregard, these decision-makers then initiate acts that are ultimately self-destructive. To illustrate this point I will remind the reader of the origin of two of modern history's most destructive events, and of all the warning flags that were frantically waving while the instigators rushed headlong towards the abyss.

In the late 19th and very early 20th centuries, European leaders formed two major alliances. Germany, Austria, and Italy comprised one coalition, and Britain, France, and Russia the other. Belgium remained neutral per an 1839 treaty signed by all of these nations except Italy. The smaller European countries became indirectly involved in the two aforementioned alliances. One such example was Serbia, a country Russia had pledged to aid in the event of war between Serbia and Austria. Despite Russia's presence, Austria annexed a large part of Serbia, a province called Bosnia, in 1908.

Few people remain emotionally indifferent when their culture and country are taken over by an aggressor, and the Bosnian Serbs were no exception. Many Bosnians despised the government that had chilled their independence. In spite of this obvious fact, the Austrian leaders sent an archduke to the capital of Bosnia to survey the people Austria now ruled. This archduke was resplendent in full military ceremonial dress, festooned with medals and other military decorations, and accompanied by his elegantly-dressed wife. An objective observer might at this point have said, "Stripping motivated people of their dignity and rubbing their noses in it is a very bad idea."

Archduke Ferdinand and his wife arrived in Sarajevo in an open vehicle, and the only protection either of them had was their chauffeur. This man was expected to drive the car and at the same time protect the Archduke and his wife with only a six-shot revolver he carried in an enclosed holster, and no spare ammunition. Our theoretical observer might here have said, "This is a recipe for disaster."

Almost as soon as the Archduke and his wife arrived in Sarajevo, a Serbian National tossed a bomb under their car. Its fuse was defective and the bomb did not explode. Here, our observer might have advised, "A miracle happened. Go home. Now. Immediately."

Despite this obvious wake-up call, the Royal Couple shrugged off the assassination attempt and continued their tour of the Bosnian capital. Later that same day, a second Serbian National shot them with his .32, killing them both. The Austrian leaders blamed the Serbian government for the assassination and demanded a virtual protectorate over Serbia, issuing Serbia a list of demands. Serbia acceded to all but one of Austria's stipulations. Here, our observer might have said to Austria's leaders, "Russia has pledged to aid Serbia in any war with you, and Russia has both powerful allies and powerful adversaries. Serbia has agreed to almost everything you demanded. Settle, and avoid a world war." Instead, Austria shelled Serbia's capital with artillery fire.

Our observer might here have told Russia's leaders, "Serbia is not worth starting a world war over," but Russia honored its commitment to Serbia and mobilized its army, sending troops to the Russian-Austrian border. Since this left Russia vulnerable to attack from Austria's ally Germany, the Russian Army mobilized against Germany as well.

This forced the German Army to mobilize. Since France was allied with Russia, the Germans feared an attack by France in the west while German troops went east. So Germany decided to invade France immediately, VIA Belgium. Here, our observer might have said, "Saying this is your 'destiny' is not going to be good enough, Germany. When you invade a neutral country and rape their women and slaughter their livestock and bum their houses, Britain is not going to just look the other way."

When the Germans invaded Belgium, Britain honored its commitment to defend Belgian neutrality, and declared war on Germany. Every major country in Europe was now at war.

Four years later, over thirty million people were dead, half of them killed directly in the war itself, and the rest so weakened through shortage of food and medicines that they succumbed to the influenza epidemic. In addition to the lives lost, the war's monetary cost in 1918 was almost three hundred billion dollars.

No sooner had the war ended than the victors demanded their pound of flesh at the Treaty of Versailles. The treaty required Germany to accept sole responsibility for causing the war. It dictated that German military leaders were to be tried as war criminals. It prohibited the German army from possessing heavy artillery. It abolished the General Staff and the German air force, and prohibited Germany from producing military aircraft. As in 1914, our observer might have said, "Stripping motivated people of their dignity and rubbing their noses in it is a very bad idea." But if such words were in fact uttered, they fell on deaf ears. A humiliated Germany was ripe for the nationalist message of Adolf Hitler, and in this fertile soil were planted the seeds of the Second World War."

31 posted on 08/03/2012 9:01:23 AM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: Moltke

“As in 1914, our observer might have said, “Stripping motivated people of their dignity and rubbing their noses in it is a very bad idea.”

It didn’t pan out too bad for Austria and Germany as they pretty much wiped out the Serbian resistance (roughly 80%) by wars end. Starving on the island of Corfu didn’t do too much for the Serbs... at least those who were lucky to make it.


32 posted on 08/03/2012 9:18:52 AM PDT by Mashood
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To: Moltke

The irony of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and his Czech wife was the Archduke was a reformer who wanted to transform the Hapsburg Empire into a more federal state.


33 posted on 08/03/2012 9:22:52 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: US Navy Vet
Tushema

Tsushima

34 posted on 08/03/2012 10:02:18 AM PDT by xone
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To: xone

Thank You for the correction(my mental spell check must be set to “off” today).


35 posted on 08/03/2012 10:13:39 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Moltke
Despite this obvious wake-up call, the Royal Couple shrugged off the assassination attempt and continued their tour of the Bosnian capital. Later that same day, a second Serbian National shot them with his .32, killing them both.

The assassin bungled finding the Archduke's car, and went into a bar. The Archduke's driver got lost, and drove down the street where that bar was; the assassin came outside and killed the couple.

And people find history boring?
36 posted on 08/03/2012 11:54:33 AM PDT by Nepeta
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To: C19fan

I think France deserves the most blame,

for things it did leading to WWI,

and Britain for things it did not do,

to stop itself from siding with France,

in what would have become, without Britain,

a brief repeat of the Franco-Prussian war,

and not a “world war”,

because it is that war,

WWI (its causes and its aftermath)

which hold a lot of responsibility for WWII,

in Europe.


37 posted on 08/03/2012 12:56:40 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Nepeta

Heh. Now that is a fascinating piece of information. Just think, if he’d only had one drink more in that bar WWI and II might not have happened...boggles the mind.

My contribution to world peace tonight: Think I’ll have a second beer. Cheers!


38 posted on 08/03/2012 2:20:45 PM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: Moltke
Heh. Now that is a fascinating piece of information. Just think, if he’d only had one drink more in that bar WWI and II might not have happened...boggles the mind.

No, the Europeans were hell-bent on playing with their armies. They had prepared for a war for decades; everybody thought they had the ultimate plan for a quick war with few losses. Nobody planned on the trench war that followed to grind on for years. The politics might have turned out differently, but a big European war was inevitable.

It might have been better for everyone if they Kaiser had won. Everybody could have settled, and not come out of the war bled white and crazy. The Russians actually sent men to the front with NO GUNS--and since they did not issue dogtags, none of the Russian dead could be readily identified.

Americans generally know very little about WW1, which is unfortunate since it has so many lessons.

People are still making finds of WW1 debris.

By the way, Archduke Ferdinand's assassin survived the war. He remained a local hero.
39 posted on 08/03/2012 5:06:42 PM PDT by Nepeta
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To: C19fan
What Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party almost accomplished , the Euro will do to Europe.
All Hitler and the Nazi party had to do is wait 60 years for the collapse of the Euro and Germany could have exerted it's power all over Europe.
In a article from the paper called the The Trumpet, the rise of the 4th Reich is here are correct.
Germany with it's rising nationalism can take over all of Europe and can enslave millions with it's policies.
All they need now is the right leader.... the Anti-Christ ?
40 posted on 08/09/2012 10:01:05 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: C19fan
What Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party almost accomplished , the Euro will do to Europe.
All Hitler and the Nazi party had to do is wait 60 years for the collapse of the Euro and Germany could have exerted it's power all over Europe.
In a article from the paper called the The Trumpet, the rise of the 4th Reich is here are correct.
Germany with it's rising nationalism can take over all of Europe and can enslave millions with it's policies.
All they need now is the right leader.... the Anti-Christ ?
41 posted on 08/09/2012 10:01:37 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Moltke
"This is a recipe for disaster." .....

Amazing how history repeats it's self.

Could WWIII start the same way ?

Russia has pledged to defend whom ? Syria ? Iran ?

Could the middle east be the flash point of a WWIII ? or Europe ?
Syria and it's present leadership is toppled and all hell breaks lose.
Then ? Syria as a blinded wild animal goes hog wild trying to destroy everyone around them including Israel, Turkey, Greece, drawling all those countries into a major middle east/eastern europe war

Syria falls apart and calls for help from Russia and Iran, in the mean time Syria shells Israel with missiles with chemical and biological weapons and Israel has no choice but to drop nukes on Damascus.

Could there be 2 flash points in the world were WWIII starts ?
Russia gets trigger happy because Europe falls apart and invades parts of Europe to save some of their allies and assets.


Greece falls, Italy falls, Span falls and unrest is the result.

All of this is taken into account not even thinking about the Chinese and North Korea.

Could there be 3 major flash points starting WWIII ? it's just ? the players are waiting for the opportune time and word.
42 posted on 08/09/2012 10:44:39 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: C19fan
A famous quote " Nothing in politics is by accident, it's all planned " .....

Folks ? anything you see or hear in politics is not by accident, it was all planned well in advance, we are being played as a cheap second hand fiddle.
43 posted on 08/09/2012 11:03:13 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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