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Public schools teach math and science much better when the teachers DONíT have a degree in education
wordpress ^ | September 17, 2012 | Dan from Squirrel Hill

Posted on 09/18/2012 10:14:17 AM PDT by grundle

Public schools teach math and science much better when the teachers DON’T have a degree in education

This is from the Wall St. Journal:


This month 3,700 recent college grads will begin Teach for America’s five-week boot camp, before heading off for two-year stints at the nation’s worst public schools.

Teach for America offers smart young people something even better than money – the chance to avoid the vast education bureaucracy. Participants need only pass academic muster and attend the summer training before entering a classroom. If they took the traditional route into teaching, they would have to endure years of “education” courses to be certified.

The American Federation of Teachers commonly derides Teach for America as a “band-aid.” One of its arguments is that the program only lasts two years, barely enough time, they say, to get a handle on managing a classroom. However, it turns out that two-thirds of its grads stay in the education field, sometimes as teachers, but also as principals or policy makers.

More importantly, it doesn’t matter that they are only in the classroom a short time, at least according to a recent Urban Institute study. Here’s the gist: “On average, high school students taught by TFA corps members performed significantly better on state-required end-of-course exams, especially in math and science, than peers taught by far more experienced instructors. The TFA teachers’ effect on student achievement in core classroom subjects was nearly three times the effect of teachers with three or more years of experience.

As always, whenever an alternative system of education does a better job of teaching than the traditional method, the teachers’ unions are against it, because they are afraid of competition.

Another interesting fact appears in this article by CBS news:

education majors… enter college with the lowest average SAT

It’s a tragedy that the dumbest college students are the ones who end up becoming teaches. In my opinion, the education major should be abolished.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 09/18/2012 10:14:23 AM PDT by grundle
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To: grundle

The unions are NOT going to go along with this. Private and charter schools will win!


2 posted on 09/18/2012 10:19:40 AM PDT by stocksthatgoup (Wealth = Net Worth ///// Income = Net Work)
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To: grundle

Thems can, does.
Thems cain’t, teach.


3 posted on 09/18/2012 10:21:34 AM PDT by Born to Conserve
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To: grundle
Everything I learned about math (beyond addition/subtraction/etc...) I either learned from my Dad, a classmate, or on my own. A 10th grade 'educator' screwed me up on trig so bad, it took an entire summer to figure it out.

/johnny

4 posted on 09/18/2012 10:21:39 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: stocksthatgoup

That’s because people who are teachers have EDUCATION degress, not degrees in what they are teaching! This is a really stupid way to train teachers. The emphasis is all wrong. Teachers should have the majority of their training in the subject they are teaching with a just a FEW EDUCATION classes.


5 posted on 09/18/2012 10:23:38 AM PDT by notbuyingit2
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To: notbuyingit2

Hillsdale college is no longer offering teaching degrees without a 4 year degree in something real.


6 posted on 09/18/2012 10:26:39 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: grundle
Teaching Math In 1950:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?

Teaching Math In 1960:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

Teaching Math In 1970:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

Teaching Math In 1980:
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20 Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math In 1990:
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? **Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers.)

Teaching Math In 2005:
Un ranchero vende una carretera de madera para $100. El cuesto de la produccion era $80. Cuantos tortillas se puede comprar?

http://dagnygromer.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/the-evolution-of-teaching-math-1950s-to-today/

7 posted on 09/18/2012 10:27:18 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Born to Conserve

And thems that can neither do nor teach become politicians


8 posted on 09/18/2012 10:29:20 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: grundle
Public schools teach math and science much better when the teachers DON’T have a degree in education

Of course. A degree in education says, "I didn't have the brains or skill for a real degree."

I once looked into getting certified to teach. My Ph.D. in physics, bachelor's in math, and several years of teaching in college wouldn't save me from having to pay for classes like "Philosophy of Education" and "History of Education."

9 posted on 09/18/2012 10:32:08 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: grundle
Education majors are not the brightest.

In fact, they are at the bottom of the degree field.

10 posted on 09/18/2012 10:32:24 AM PDT by SC DOC
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To: cripplecreek

Yeah! That’s a start but “Education interests” are really entrenched in the public school system. It will take a lot to change the mindset. A continuing decline in standardized test scores will probably help speed the change - that and parents finally saying they aren’t going to take it anymore.


11 posted on 09/18/2012 10:35:19 AM PDT by notbuyingit2
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To: JustSayNoToNannies; All

Of course. A degree in education says, “I didn’t have the brains or skill for a real degree.”
///
exactly correct. as shown by this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2932550/posts

IQ estimates by college major via SAT scores [average education major has 2-digit IQ]
blogspot.com ^ | March 25, 2009 | The Audacious Epigone

Posted on Monday, September 17, 2012 8:17:59 PM by grundle

IQ estimates by intended college major via SAT scores

Assuming the mean IQ of SAT test-takers included in a report by the College Board to be 103*, the estimated average IQ of students by intended college major follow. The estimates exclude writing results, which were added in 2005 and constitute what is generally considered the least objectively reliable part of the test**. The critical reading and mathematics (previously known as the quantitative section) portions are equally weighted:

Intended major IQ

Interdisciplinary studies 114.0
Physical sciences 111.2
Mathematics and statistics 110.7
English and literature 110.1
...
Education 99.3
Agriculture 99.2
Transportation 98.7
Other 97.8
Family and consumer sciences 97.5
Parks, recreation, leisure and fitness 97.5
Public administration and social services 96.6


12 posted on 09/18/2012 10:35:40 AM PDT by Elendur (It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: JRandomFreeper

My trig teacher started us with fractions and ratios. Spent three weeks on it till we were bored out of our minds. We kept hanging in because he had the day that we were going to start Trig marked on the calender. So we actually started Trig 3 weeks late.

When the day came, he drew a circle and told us that all of trig can be expressed as the ratio between the adjacent, opposite and hypotenuse sides of a triangle. You could hear the whole class go .... “oh wow” as the light bulb came on.

We finished the year 3 weeks ahead of schedule because we “got it” up front. And in my mind, the review of fractions and ratios was WELL worth the effort.


13 posted on 09/18/2012 10:35:59 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: grundle

Definitely. The education major should be abolished. I took some of their required classes for the education major-—and they are a complete waste of time which made me switch my major—because I couldn’t stand to waste my time when there were so many courses where I could actually “learn” something.

Actually, DOE should be eliminated and all parents should again be the primary educators of their own children—with tutorial type help, from people with the same moral principles so Virtue is once again instilled into children.

No one was more educated than Abe Lincoln who only stepped into a classroom for a couple of months. All children used to go to college by 14 or so-—because they were actually taught knowledge at age 7 through 12-—and most people who left school like Mark Twain by 13 were WAY smarter than college graduates today.

Why? Because the socialist Dewey destroyed “knowledge” with his social sciences and brainwashing/conditioning curricula when he kicked out Classical knowledge and Moral Absolutes (God)——to foster infantilism and dependence and servitude and immorality.

People not in the Prussian system of “forced group think” become independent, strong individuals who can withstand the “group” thought and think independently-—like men used to in the cases of Jefferson and Adams and Hayek. (John Taylor Gatto).

Our children are being conditioned to be dependents-—slaves of the state—which is what John Stuart Mill said would be the result of State run educational systems. He is correct, as the OWS and ACORN thugs prove. We have ignorant zombies coming out of schools now-—who KNOW EVERYTHING, yet know NOTHING—of importance, except how to put a condom on a cucumber and masturbate in groups and with themselves—(and it is “fun”). They reject the wisdom of the ages-—like Hayek, Locke, Milton, Shakespeare, Aquinas, etc, because they are incapable of understanding them.


14 posted on 09/18/2012 10:38:25 AM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: grundle

A degree in ejookayshun is totally worthless.


15 posted on 09/18/2012 10:40:12 AM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: grundle

I have many friends with engineering degrees, well qualified to teach math and sciences, who were rebuffed by schools when they applied for a teaching position.


16 posted on 09/18/2012 10:40:40 AM PDT by 353FMG (The US Constitution is only as effective as those who enforce it.)
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To: taxcontrol

Sounds like you had a great teacher who really understood his subject.


17 posted on 09/18/2012 10:41:59 AM PDT by notbuyingit2
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To: grundle

“Public schools teach math and science much better when the teachers DON’T have a degree in education”

Of course they don’t...because the “teacher factories” are nothing more than assembly line factories. The end product, their graduates only have to comply with their formulas listed in text books—they’ve never been presented with situations to resolve real world problems. Never had to discover innovations to survive.

Never had to be concern with an outcome from their own decisions. If they’re not successful in their endeavors, some kid flunks out, they go on their merry way. Screw up in the business world, you could sink an entire operation. No pressure, no problems.

You’re only going to get some regurgitated, pre fabbed process from a “teachers’ factory” reinforced by people who have no world experience in anything else themselves.


18 posted on 09/18/2012 10:42:39 AM PDT by WKUHilltopper (And yet...we continue to tolerate this crap...)
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To: notbuyingit2

Hillsdale college has a deal with Spring Arbor college about 25 miles to the north where a student who wants the teaching degree can work on it at the same time they’re getting the required 4 year degree.


19 posted on 09/18/2012 10:42:57 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: 353FMG

Neil Armstrong went into teaching after leaving NASA as it should be.


20 posted on 09/18/2012 10:44:03 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: grundle

B.A. in English
Almost have my M.A. in English.

I concur completely about M.Ed. and B.Ed teachers. They are most proficient when gabbing about educational theory during professional development meetings.


21 posted on 09/18/2012 10:45:07 AM PDT by struggle (http://killthegovernment.wordpress.com/)
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To: Elendur

where do fine arts majors fall on that scale? i know many with degrees in fine arts that have very high IQ’s. Anecdotal, I know, but I am curious.


22 posted on 09/18/2012 10:48:13 AM PDT by BudgieRamone (Everybody loves a bonk on the head.)
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To: grundle

What the education establishment doesn’t want to hear, is that knowledge of subject matter and IQ of teacher matter more than how many “Ed” courses have been taken.


23 posted on 09/18/2012 10:50:10 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Charlie Daniels - Payback Time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWwTJj_nosI)
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To: grundle

An education degree.

For when you absolutely, positively cannot pass any other academic major.


24 posted on 09/18/2012 10:50:51 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: grundle
Today in America there are THOUSANDS of unemployed people who are marvelously qualified to teach math and science and will do so for reasonable pay and benefits.

Are you listening, Chicago, et al.?

25 posted on 09/18/2012 10:55:51 AM PDT by July4 (Remember the price paid for your freedom.)
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To: taxcontrol
What you described is basically how they teach math in Japan. Thin texts books. Lots of drills. Multiple ways to solve problems. My daughter took one of those standard tests in Japan and was pretty much average, just slightly below the 50th percentile. We moved to the United States next year, one of the better school districts in the state, she takes the same type of test and suddenly she's in the 92nd percentile for math.

Go figure.

Below the college level, the Japanese don't even divide trig, algebra and geometry into separate subjects. It is all one continuous flow. They even learn basic calculus in high school, not all that different than what I needed to earn a graduate degree in economics.

26 posted on 09/18/2012 11:02:58 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Born to Conserve
Thems can, does.

Thems cain’t, teach.

And those who can't teach, teach teachers.

27 posted on 09/18/2012 11:06:52 AM PDT by JoeFromSidney ( New book: RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY. Buy from Amazon.)
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To: grundle

BLAME this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math


28 posted on 09/18/2012 11:13:32 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: grundle

can someone explain to me why a person with a high school diploma cannot teach elementary school classes?

kindergarten... share your cookies, take a nap..

first grade.. 2+2=4, this is how you hold your pencil

second grade.. 2X2=4, here is a noun, this is how you spell words

third grade.. heat expands, cold contracts.... this is how you construct a sentence... this is how you make change at the store...

why the hell do you need a college degree to teach this stuff????


29 posted on 09/18/2012 11:13:43 AM PDT by joe fonebone (I am the 15%)
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To: cripplecreek

Don’t you think that Neil had more “pull” than most engineers have?

Can you think of any school that would reject him? He could’ve found a job in pre-kindergarten if he wanted to.


30 posted on 09/18/2012 11:14:15 AM PDT by 353FMG (The US Constitution is only as effective as those who enforce it.)
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To: grundle

EDUCATION?
I thought they got a degree in INDOCTRINATION.


31 posted on 09/18/2012 11:19:12 AM PDT by BuffaloJack (Those who pay no taxes and depend upon government are Government PETS.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“A 10th grade ‘educator’ screwed me up on trig so bad...”

I had an excellent trig teacher in 11th grade. I occasionally paid attention, never did the homework, and got horrible grades, but I learned that damned unit circle.

When I took trig in college, I didn’t learn anything in that class (and neither did anyone else, from what I saw), but I just practiced the stuff I learned in high school and killed the curve for everyone else.

Trig is an easy class to screw up if you have a bad teacher (or don’t do the homework).


32 posted on 09/18/2012 11:43:52 AM PDT by Gil4 (Progressives - Trying to repeal the Law of Supply and Demand since 1848)
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To: grundle
Most parents often do a better job of teaching than do "professional" teachers.

We have screwed up teaching and education and turned a calling into a union job with union work rules, benefits and predictable results.

Life Success now comes from overcoming the mandated mediocrity and sheep-like dependency that are the hallmarks of the professional educator's work, and not because of it.

A public school education is every citizen's built in excuse for failure. What did you learn in school today other than self esteem, son? "I learned, "It's not my fault!""

33 posted on 09/18/2012 11:57:34 AM PDT by GBA
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To: notbuyingit2
That’s because people who are teachers have EDUCATION degress, not degrees in what they are teaching! This is a really stupid way to train teachers. The emphasis is all wrong. Teachers should have the majority of their training in the subject they are teaching with a just a FEW EDUCATION classes.

I'm pretty sure that what you are saying is somehow "rascist"; but, personally, I think it is logical. Which is why you will never find it in a public school. I have never understood this philosophy that if you have an "Education" degree, that means you can teach anything. It is ridiculous; yet, that is where we are today. No surprise as to the failure of schools when this is what they think. I remember talking to a woman who had been a teacher before she had kids and she was telling me that when she came in one year to get set up for that school year, she was told that she was doing the "special ed" class this year. She told them that she had no training in "special ed" and she was told that it was "her turn". This was years ago, and probably the first hint I had that something was wrong with the public schools. (My kids had Catholic education.)

There is a book by Thomas Sowell, can't remember the title, but, he stated that education would improve greatly if there were no such thing as an Education degree; but, that you needed to get a degree in something, and then the "teacher training" could be either a Masters program or a Certificate. I thought that made a lot of sense.

34 posted on 09/18/2012 12:00:01 PM PDT by LibertarianLiz
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To: Gil4
I had an excellent trig teacher in 11th grade.

Both of my girls went to a Catholic HS. Both were in "Honors" programs which meant that they got some very good teachers (of course, one of them just retired and the other is getting up there). When they reached their junior year class in math, the teacher did not use a book at all. Someone on a Parent's Night asked him about that, and his response was that "he knew how to teach math at that grade level". He just had been doing it for so long that he knew what to do, didn't need a book, students didn't need a book; and, they all did fine on their SATs.

35 posted on 09/18/2012 12:06:58 PM PDT by LibertarianLiz
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To: GBA
We have screwed up teaching and education and turned a calling into a union job with union work rules, benefits and predictable results

Exactly! They are not "schools" they are "union shops".

36 posted on 09/18/2012 12:09:02 PM PDT by LibertarianLiz
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To: LibertarianLiz
Which is why you will never find it in a public school.

Generalization such as this is no different than ASSUME.......

While it is true in many areas, it is not true in all areas - and most especially not in states where the public school teachers are not union. My daughter just started 9th grade, but is taking geometry because she took algebra in 8th grade - her math teachers for both courses have Masters in Math. Her Honor's English teacher has degrees in English and her Science teacher degrees in Science.

I spent 12 years in Catholic schools in NYC and my daughter is getting just as good an education in public school in VA as I did, and far superior in some areas.

37 posted on 09/18/2012 12:48:56 PM PDT by Gabz (Democrats for Voldemort.)
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To: grundle

“Teach for America” sounds a lot like “Obama for America.” Wonder what they teach in that boot camp.


38 posted on 09/18/2012 1:19:35 PM PDT by informavoracious (Abortions are unproductive wrongs, not reproductive rights.)
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To: Gabz
the public school teachers are not union

I believe that this thread was really about Union teachers and that those teachers who do not have an Education degree, but a degree in a subject (as your child's teachers do) is a much better way to go.

I live in a state (Washington) where the teachers are unionized. When I was looking at my eldest daughter starting school, I was appalled at the low scores that the children in my city were scoring. Reading at grade level was in the low 20 percentile, and math was around 19%. I had a very bright child who was already reading her books by age 4 (she was reading single words at 2). I felt it would be child abuse to put her into that school system. We did not have a lot of money; but, we took the hit so our children could get a decent education. When the educators are unionized, the entire system becomes about them, not about the children.

I'm happy that your children are able to get a good education from your area's public schools. But, I think, for the majority of people in the U.S., that is just not the case. Again, in the school district I'm in, they stopped the "Honors" program years ago after one of their "Honors" students showed up at a School Board meeting to explain that the school had simply not prepared her for college (and she was the Valedictorian of her class). She was an Indian-American and she was told that some students just aren't ready for the college experience. She was their top student, and she was told that obviously she was not ready. It was such b.s. Anyway, after that incident they ended up having to admit that their Honor Program was just like their regular program; but, the students were the bright students who didn't ever disrupt the class.

So, I am glad I did the Catholic school route, and my kids got a decent education. Our finances would not have taken such a hit if I felt that my kids would have been served well by the public schools; but, I just wasn't ready to take the chance after what I had been reading and observing about the schools in this area.

39 posted on 09/18/2012 3:36:05 PM PDT by LibertarianLiz
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
Amazingly, you have the same experience and credentials that I have: BS Math, PhD Physics, two-time award winner as an outstanding Grad TA and one year post-Doc as a lecturer. I've been looking into teaching as a retirement option (I never used my PhD, and have been doing software development for 30+ years.)

I learned I would need to spend $30,000 at my 1970's Alma Mater, because, as I was told, "You might know math and physics, but you don't know how to teach math or physics." Well, yeah, I kinda do. And if results are any indication, you folks really don't.

At PSU, we had some (very limited -- 6 credits, I think) overlap in the sophomore level math courses with Math Ed majors. We loved 'em. They helped make for a great curve. But you shudder to think that those dumbasses are out there teaching kids math.

My daughter's math teacher in middle school actually sent a note home to me that said, "Your daughter says that you told her that 0/0 is not defined. That's only in algebra. In the rest of mathematics, 0 divided into anything is always zero."

WTF!?

The worst part is, the engineers and scientists I taught were often functional illiterates who went nuts when I corrected their grammar and spelling; but many of them actually spoke English more correctly than some of the things I've heard from putative "English teachers" at back-to-school nights over the last twenty years.

40 posted on 09/18/2012 3:50:40 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Own it Mitt: it's never a gaffe to speak the truth.)
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To: struggle

If by “proficient” you mean “full of crap,” we agree. Given the state of educational outcomes, modern educational theory (I use the term loosely) can’t be much more than a lot of hot air.


41 posted on 09/18/2012 3:54:58 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Educational Theory: a term which in this context means creating an area of study for dumbasses.)
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To: LibertarianLiz

The article is about teachers with and without Education degrees not about union teachers.

I left a state (Delaware) where the teachers are unionized and moved to a state with far better schools, not even thinking about them not being unionized, just knowing the schools were better. Heck, I wouldn’t even have put our daughter in the local Catholic school in Delaware, as it was as bad as the local public school.

I’m glad you found what was best for your children. I found what was best for our child. I don’t have an issue with that.

My issue was your generalization, and broad brushing of ALL public school systems based upon your own personal experience. I would love for my daughter to be attending my HS Alma mater - but I prefer her NOT growing up in the cesspool that NYC has become.


42 posted on 09/18/2012 5:03:39 PM PDT by Gabz (Democrats for Voldemort.)
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To: FredZarguna

>>If by “proficient” you mean “full of crap,” we agree. Given the state of educational outcomes, modern educational theory (I use the term loosely) can’t be much more than a lot of hot air.

(Should I vent some more...yes.) You are absolutely correct. There is no educational theory or method more effective than a good teacher that connects with students, is prepared, and judges his students fairly and competently. Teaching is about people transmitting information to one another, not about how or what methods by which it is transmitted. People learn in different ways.

The saddest thing are the stupid and meaningless methods teachers are forced to endorse to make curriculum heads (M.Ed. folks) happy. Word walls, Depth of Knowledge, Thinking Maps, and now Core Curriculum - by the time a teacher becomes a 7-10 year veteran, he has learned to complete disregard them all as fads that will pass away shortly, only to be replaced by a new educational fad that cost valuable funding and time.


43 posted on 09/18/2012 5:16:30 PM PDT by struggle (http://killthegovernment.wordpress.com/)
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To: FredZarguna
Amazingly, you have the same experience and credentials that I have: BS Math, PhD Physics,

Very suspicious ... has anyone seen a picture of the two of us together? ;-D

My daughter's math teacher in middle school actually sent a note home to me that said, "Your daughter says that you told her that 0/0 is not defined. That's only in algebra. In the rest of mathematics, 0 divided into anything is always zero."

WTF!?

<groan> More than once I've had to tell my daughter, "If that's what the teacher says, that's how it is in that class - but here's the real truth ..."

44 posted on 09/19/2012 7:04:51 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
Very suspicious ... has anyone seen a picture of the two of us together?

Don't personally believe in the "Many World's" Interpretation, but if I did I might suggest that one of us has slipped through from an alternate Feynman Path.

We could also be like Dr. Doom and Rama Tut, but this begs the question: Are Kang The Conqueror and The Scarlet Centurion also FReepers, and if so, what are their handles? And would it be good, or bad -- like "crossing the streams BAD" if they discover that they are also us(/you/me.)

[ Statistically, I suppose the odds would be worse -- a lot worse -- if we were both Wimmins' Studies undergrads with PhD's in post-modern feminist literature posting on the same thread at FR. But I don't think Dr. Doom is a feminist in any event... ]

45 posted on 09/19/2012 2:00:27 PM PDT by FredZarguna (Educational Theory: a term which in this context means creating an area of study for dumbasses.)
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