Skip to comments.Kansas Verification Works for Non-Valid Record Too
Posted on 09/21/2012 7:45:43 AM PDT by butterdezillion
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Clue me in or straighten my thinking out. Kobach sends a fraudulent copy of a birth certificate to Onaka. Onaka is given the opportunity to adjust/change Obama’s birth records to correspond to what Kobach sent to him. Onaka can now under cloak of secrecy gin up some document that matches what Kobach sent to him. Vole, Onaka now has a document that matches what Kobach sent/inquired about and can report such to Kobach. A wonderful game of political skulduggery to fool the public. Both persons need to be put on the list of memorable enablers for whatever the future can bring.
Of course it means something. Nothing can be taken for granted with these liars. Matches is not identical. Identical is all inclusive, matches is subsets.
On the letter to Bennett, Onaka's signature stamp is initialed by gk.
On the letter to Kobach it's initialed BP.
He works closely with Russell Pearce and Sherrif Joe Arpaio. I trust Kobach's legal expertise and judgment.
That would be possible, but it looks to me like Onaka has done a very courageous thing instead: he told the truth. When AZ SOS Ken Bennett sent in the standard application form to request a verification under HRS 338-14.3, Onaka verified that they have a birth certificate for Obama which claims a Hawaii birth and he verified that the claims that are on the White House BC are on the record they have. He would NOT verify any true facts of birth. The only legal reason for him to fail to verify those facts of birth if what was submitted for verification matched what was on the record... is if the record they have is not legally valid - since by verifying the facts he is certifying that as being how the birth actually happened. A non-valid BC has no legal evidentiary value; it is an unsubstantiated rumor, and the State of Hawaii can not certify that the event really happened that way.
He was also requested to verify that the WH image is a “true and accurate representation of the original record on file” and would not verify that - instead illegally verifying something he was not requested to verify: that the information contained in the WH image matches the original record.
The Mississippi Democratic Executive Committee saw that verification and realized what every lawyer would realize: that Onaka had just confirmed that the record they have is not legally valid. But there were questions (from Mike Zullo of the Cold Case Posse, among others) about why Onaka had distanced himself from the AZ verification by having somebody else’s initials next to his signature stamp and be failing to verify the birth date.
So the MDEC lawyers tried to perpetuate the media’s false reports that Onaka had actually verified the FACTS, by requesting a verification that Onaka would have no problems attaching his name to - a verification that Onaka could make, even for a non-valid record: he requested verification that they have a BC and that the “information” (claims) on the WH (forgery) “match” the “information” (claims) on the original (non-valid) record.
Kobach was told about all this so when pressed to get documentation he did the SAME THING that MDEC did: he asked for verification that could be done even for a non-valid record.
His request added verification that the BC# on the file is 151-61-10641 (which also says nothing about the legal validity of the record). It can be claimed that they have a record with that BC# (even though that number could not have been on Obama’s BC in 1961) because HRS 338-17.7 authorizes the HDOH to create a new BC (with a new BC#) that says whatever law enforcement says it should say - supposedly for the protection of the registrant (Obama). That’s why they had to try to associate the Tea Party and “birthers” with violent extremism - so the FBI could claim that Obama’s life was in danger if the HDOH didn’t create a new BC that had Stig Waidelich’s BC# and claims of a Kapiolani birth, etc.
(I had originally thought Eric Holder requested this directly, but there are indications that it may have been the FBI instead. It’s still Holder; he’s just using somebody else as the fall guys like he did with Fast & Furious. Coward.)
But the wording Kobach gave was a little different than the MDEC wording. He asked for verification that the WH BC’s information was “identical to” the information in the original record. And Onaka would not verify that. Instead he verified that it “matched”. I don’t know what mental parsing Onaka did to be able to justify the use of “matches” but not the use of “identical to”. It was enough difference to Onaka that somebody else’s initials were next to Onaka’s signature stamp, again, and there was no raised seal on the document. I suspect the word “matches” might mean that if there was a claim on the WH BC there was the same claim on the original, whereas “identical” would also mean that if there was NO claim on the WH BC there was also no claim on the original. That would make a difference regarding the last item on the BC - the one noting evidence submitted for late filings and/or amendments.
But neither one would end up verifying any legal birth facts because the record has already been confirmed as legally non-valid. Probably Onaka doesn’t want to associate his name with a verification that was not clearly legally-accurate.
What Onaka verified to Kobach, then, is that they have a record for Obama and its file number is 151-61-10641 - and that the information in the WH BC is NOT “identical to” the information in the record on file
I believe Onaka is being legally precise. And that’s why the people who simply want to cover their a$$es and not actually find out the truth have to phrase their requests to accommodate the non-valid record. Kobach biffed it by using the words “identical to” so he didn’t get a verification with Onaka’s initials and a raised seal.
Given his legal degree, when Kobach looks at the request he made and the response he got, he has to say that Onaka did NOT verify that the information is identical. So he has absolutely NO basis to believe that the verification he received supports Obama’s eligibility in any way, shape, or form.
Seems like Onaka is holding firm. It’s the chicken SOS’s and the complicit media who are misrepresenting what Onaka is actually verifying - even after a lawyer has pointed it out to them in a certified letter.
We already have proof that the emperor is naked. Now the issue is how we get that to make any difference - how we get anybody with power to hear and act on the little kid saying what everybody but the knaves can see clearly with their own eyes. If we can’t do this on something this important, then our government is totally shielded from reality by its own corruption and by a treasonous, totally politicized media, including the “conservative” media.
In this instance he’s dead wrong. And he knows it. I say that not only because he was informed of that fact by Attorney Larry Klayman on Sept 7th, but because he referenced the Arizona and MDEC verifications which prove Klayman’s points AND the verification he requested was designed to work with even a non-valid BC. In the end he did NOT receive verification that the information in the WH BC is “identical to” the information in the original record. Yet he is acting as if he did. There is no legal cover for him on this, AT ALL.
I’ve got nothing against the guy. Sounds like he’s been doing some good things. But in this instance he is committing election fraud - a fact which he has been notified of and is totally blowing off. And that’s just plain wrong.
Or more informative:
information (claims) on the WH (forgery) is not identical to the information (claims) on the original (non-valid) record.
Somethings missing or changed like the big ole red stamp that says this record is invalid.
Onaka does not adjust or change records to correspond to what Kobach sent.
The issue is that Kobach has only part of the complete record. The complete record would show that the BC was late or was amended.
“Matching” or “verifying” is meaningless.
(-) I have a sheet of paper listing 10 items
(-) You have a sheet of paper listing 5 items
(-) You ask me to certify that your sheet of paper is a “true and correct” copy of my sheet of paper
(-) I decline, but offer instead to verify that what is on your sheet of paper matches mine. You accept.
(-) I inspect your sheet of paper and all 5 items are on my sheet of paper, so I “verify” to you that “The information contained on your sheet of paper (the ‘Certificate of Live Birth’ published at the [Whitehouse website]) and reviewed by me matches the information contained on my original sheet of paper [the COLB on file with HI DOH]”
(-) What of the additional information on my sheet of paper??????
The information being concealed shows that the complete BC on file with HI DOH was late or amended.
I don't want to see Kris Kobach demonized over this. I know him and have worked with him. He is a conservative through and through and has shown amazing courage and tenacity in fighting illegal immigration. How many other SOSs have even tried to verify Obama's BC besides Bennett?
I have been following your good works on this issue, which I can only describe as being heroic. The problem goes far beyond the SOSs and Onaka. The Arpaio investigation should have triggered a Congressional investigation. The MSM has been covering up information on Obama and failed to properly vet him. The Judiciary has been derelict by blocking legal challenges, mostly on dubious legal technicalities like standing. The very institutions responsible for protecting our Constitution have been AWOL or complicit in the cover-up.
There is a huge segment of the American public that knows something is terribly wrong. The fact that Trump could use public pressure to force Obama to produce his phony long form BC--something the MSM said didn't exist-- is evidence that it would take just a small group of influential public figures to galvanize the public on the issue.
Why isn't it being done? I believe that the political and media elites think that such a disclosure would shake this very Republic to its foundations and possibly result in riots and civil unrest. The fact that the poseur just happens to be our first black President would make the revelation just that much more divisive. It would be seen as being racially motivated and no doubt, there would be plenty of Dems, white and black, who would portray it that way. And then there are the legal issues involving the legitimacy of anything that Obama has signed during his time in office. The court cases would stretch from here to the moon and beyond.
The Dems and the MSM have been very effective in branding anyone who questions Obama's eligibility as "birthers." That label is almost as damaging as calling someone a "denier" who doesn't believe the Hollocaust ever happened [or that Global Warming isn't caused by man.] Even Romney's small dig about his birth certificate resulted in an immediate kerfluffle that resulted in Romney having to say that he believes Obama was born in the US. During this run up to November no politician wants to touch this issue. That is just a sad fact.
Could the reason that Onaka used the word “matched” rather than “identical” be traced to the electronically forged BC released by the WH. Hawaii never issued such a document either in that format or otherwise. It simply doesn’t exist. As Arpaio proved, the WH document is a clear forgery.
Yes, I agree with what you’ve said.
The trouble with people being afraid to touch this issue because it’s “political” is that by refusing to simply apply the normal law enforcement standards and procedures they are MAKING it political. Could you imagine if everybody had let the Duke lacrosse team rot in jail because it would seem too “political” to point out Mike Nifong’s criminal actions? WEll... that’s where we’re at right now. In the interest of not APPEARING political, the entire system has BECOME political. And that means that we have no rule of law. At all.
That is a heckuva lot scarier than riots.
And at this point I think the only people willing to riot for Obama are the people who would use ANY excuse to riot - the communists and the Islamists. The only question for people who care about America is whether the good guys are strong enough to win the battle when the bad guys choose to initiate it. And THAT is the question these people need to be asking themselves, because all this appeasement is only strengthening the evil and weakening the good.
I have pleaded with Kobach to do the right thing, and pledged all my support if he makes the good stand. I’ve told him some of what my family has been dealing with as a result of my own stand on this and explained that I understood the hesitancy but that he would not be alone. If you know him personally and have any influence, could you please let him know that there is still time to do the right thing?
The treasonous media can be silenced by the simple truth - and by prosecution if they knowingly report false information and/or libel somebody by reporting false information. They’re playing chicken with us, and if we let them win on something this blatant and important it will embolden them - just like the appeasement, bowing, and apologizing has emboldened the Islamists all over the world. If we’re going to stand, now is the time to do it. Please tell Kobach that, if you can. I want to work WITH Kobach, not against him.
What do you make of the fact that SoS Kobach told the media that the information “matches”? He used Dr. Onaka’s language not his language. He doesn’t seem to be drawing a distinction between “identical” and “matches”.
Maybe the SOS and AG don’t agree with the legal argument made by Klayman.
“Identical” v. “matches” is not the argument made by Klayman.
His argument is available here: http://www.wnd.com/files/2012/09/BauerLetter.pdf
What I meant was that the SoS and AG don’t agree with the legal argument that the verification is legally worthless.
It appears to me that they are accepting the verification at face value as proof Obama was born in Hawaii. For them and eligiblity purposes that is all that matters as Kobash said during the hearing he didn’t buy the two citizen parent theory.
The law is clear. There’s really no argument to be made. MDEC understood Onaka loud and clear also. And if Kobach didn’t buy the argument then why would he ask for verification from Onaka anyway? Why not just say Obama’s birth facts were already verified to Arizona and MDEC?
The wording in Onaka’s verification to Kobach was WORD FOR WORD copied from Kobach’s request, except for changing “is identical to” to “matches”. Any lawyer worth his salt would notice that difference. It was a deliberate change that required effort. And they would notice that it was not Onaka’s initials by the signature stamp AND that the document had no raised seal - all in comparison with MDEC’s verification, which Kobach had said he needed to find out about.
Onaka is doing a good job of signaling to us when something is wrong - like a wink at just certain times. If even I can see this, any lawyer should immediately see this. Kobach is not stupid. He knows exactly what is going on. He thought he was only asking for a verification that Onaka could give, even with a non-valid BC. But Onaka had to balk at even the words “identical to”.
That tells us with even more detail what is going on - that there is “information” missing from the White House image that is contained on the original record. That’s why “matches” can be used but “identical to” can’t. The only 2 items that were left blank on Obama’s White House long-form image were Items 7f (mother’s mailing address) and Item 23 (”Evidence for Delayed Filing or Alteration”).
MDEC was very careful to point out to the judge (when they submitted their verification in court) that “information” only means BIRTH FACTS - just to be sure that they couldn’t be found guilty of trying to claim that the one “item” that refers to the filing status was identical on the WH BC and on the record on file, since it could be shown that they already had reason to know that the record was late and/or altered because Onaka had already confirmed to Bennett that the record was non-valid, by the time MDEC made their request.
Nowhere on that verification did Onaka say that the record was legally-valid, and nowhere did he say that any of the claimed facts were true. There is no way that the verification received by ANY of these people (Bennett, MDEC, or Kobach) can prove that there is legal evidence that Obama was born in Honolulu on Aug 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. For all we know from what Onaka has disclosed, the record that the WH BC information “matches” could be written on toilet paper in crayon 45 years after the birth.
And for it to be legally non-valid even in Hawaii with its loopholes, it would actually have to be something pretty similar to that...
“There is no way that the verification received by ANY of these people (Bennett, MDEC, or Kobach) can prove that there is legal evidence that Obama was born in Honolulu “
How do you explain that he settled for a verification that is word for word the same as the one sent to the MDEC (except for item 2 which the MDEC did not ask to be verified), if he knew that the MDEC’s was worthless? Why did he not only certify Obama for the ballot but also came out and made strong statements to the press that the matter was settled and Obama was eligible?
To me that only means one of two things:
1) Kobash knew he could be charged with perjury and election fraud and said screw it.
2) He thinks Klayman’s letter is wrong in its legal argument and he can not be charged with a crime. And if he doesn’t accept Klayman’s arguments then to him the BC is legally valid per the verifications.
Is there a third option?
Third option: He knew that the media was going to lie about whatever came up and preferred his chances with an AG (who was also on the Objection Board and wouldn’t even show up for the follow-up meeting) to his chances against a treasonous media. He knows I can’t arrest him, and he’s buddies with the people who can. At least for now.
The strong statement he made that I’ve seen quoted is that he said he was convinced that the information matches. I’m convinced the information matches also. But it’s all non-valid. A headline seemed to claim that he said he had “no doubts that Obama was born in Hawaii”. I have no doubts that Obama was born in Kenya, but that doesn’t mean I can legally say that is the case. My opinion doesn’t matter; what matters is the legal documentation, and if Kobach has any kind of law degree he knows the difference.
Kobach wanted the same thing that Ken Bennett wanted: a fig leaf to cover his unpresentable parts. He didn’t get it, and the unpresentable parts that are now exposed are NOT big brass balls.
Also - getting a verification that is word for word the same as what somebody got when they asked for something different is a huge red flag. It says “This is a recording. Do not expect me to respond as if I really heard what you said.”
In fact, Kobach’s request was brilliant, for determining whether Onaka had really meant that the two documents (the WH BC and the record on file) are identical when he said that they “matched”. Kobach’s request exposed that the media is reading Onaka’s response to MDEC and Bennett all wrong.
If Kobach would have said, “Now I know that what Klayman said was true: Onaka has confirmed that the White House BC is a forgery” the form of his request could have been justified. But that’s not what he was after. He was after a fig leaf. As I just said, he didn’t get it.
I think you have it nailed, but what we need is an example of a verification that is normal. There must be some standard process that they are clearly avoiding.
Also, I remember you had some report with Obamas name, a computer listing with some characters next to name, from HDOH. What characters were next to his name?
For the last 3 years they have been refusing to do any letters of verification because if they did any for somebody else it would reveal that they wouldn’t do one for Obama. When I asked Janice Okubo for a copy of the form they use for verifications she said there weren’t any records responsive to my request because they don’t do verifications; when somebody sends in for a verification the HDOH sends them a certified COLB.
Liar. But that’s what we’re dealing with. They change their “procedures” according to whatever Obama needs to cover his a$$, with no regard to the laws, and when they can’t obfuscate for months and months at a time they lie. And they treat each person differently, with a special fear and hatred of haoles; procedures are designed to make it difficult for anybody who is not in Hawaii.
And that needs to bite them in the butt. Their own website says that a request for a letter of verification has to be requested the same way as a certified copy, and they will not allow requests for certified copies to be made by phone, fax, or email. How did that request letter get from Kansas to Hawaii the same day as it was created, with the response to it coming in the very same day? They broke their own rules.
Ken Bennett made the request the legal way and waited 8 weeks to get what he got. If I had made the same request, without media coverage to create pressure, I would have had the same response as my colleague got: you qualify for the verification but your request has been sent to the AG’s office so they can figure out an excuse to not give you a verification so nobody will realize that we will never issue a verification for Obama. (And why is that? Because you CAN’T!)
I’m looking at all three verification letters here. AZ, MISS, KS.
The only one where an embossed stamp is visible (starkly and clearly visible) is the one for Mississippi.
That letter only states only two things.
1) They have an original record for Obastard.
2) The information MATCHES the fake PDF website image.
All three letters have been initialed by somebody other than Onaka. gk, BP, ALO (or AZO)
Once they start to get into details, the embossed seal stamp does not appear to be used. Why?
The only difference that I can see between the Mississippi letter and the Kansas letter is that the Kansas letter mentions the birth certificate number 151 61 10641.
If there really is no embossed seal on the two letters that ask for details (as it appears), that seems significant to me because as if we suspect that birth certificate number belongs to somebody else the certification process seems to
take a dive here. No embossed seal, no certification.
It’s also strange that the letters use the phrase “reviewed by me” and then Onaka has to have somebody initial the stamp. I realize he has secretarial staff but with all the hullabaloo about the birth certificate you’d think he could certify these few letters all by himself.
From their own current website:
Letters of Verification
Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/civil union/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.) The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.
Letters of verification are requested in similar fashion and using the same request forms as for certified copies.
The fee for a letter of verification is $5 per letter.
ATO would be Alvin T Onaka. That’s the one on the MDEC verification, IIRC.
The MDEC verification is probably the closest we’ll come to a standard certified verification, but the request was never made on a standard verification application form so the content on it is totally different than a response to a standard verification application.
I think what’s going on here is that there are 2 different BC’s for Obama. The only way they could claim that 151-61-10641 was on a record for Obama is if he was given somebody else’s BC#, according to the 2 mutually-exclusive numbering methods described by past or present HDOH officials as having been in use then. And the only place where they are authorized to create a new BC with a different BC# is in HRS 338-17.7, where they are allowed to make a new BC saying whatever law enforcement tells them to put on it, in order to protect the registrant.
But that procedure is only allowed if the registrant was born in Hawaii (which can’t be known from Obama’s original non-valid record), and it doesn’t give them the right to steal somebody else’s BC# (who would then have to be assigned a different number even though they were not in danger and there was therefore no lawful authorization for their number to be changed).
So that 2nd BC that was created, under the guise of protecting Obama from us “violent birthers”, is not lawful, since Obama’s BC is non-valid. So Onaka’s got a mess on his hands.
“ATO would be Alvin T Onaka.”
Ahhh...of course. Duh.
Well that makes sense then. The only letter that doesn’t get into specific details (like the BC#) is the only one personally signed and embossed by Onaka.
Look again at that description:
“This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/civil union/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.)”
When somebody provides information to be verified they are requesting that Onaka verify, for example, “that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place”.
How would Onaka verify that? By saying he verifies that a certain named individual WAS born on a certain date at a certain place.
Not by saying “this information about birth date matches the information on our record”...
Neither MDEC nor Kobach asked for any BIRTH FACT to be verified (for instance, that Obama WAS born on Aug 4, 1961 in Honolulu, HI). Bennett did, and the response to that request regarding particulars was nothing. Onaka did not verify that a certain named individual WAS born on a certain date at a certain place. Onaka has NEVER verified that Obama was born on Aug 4, 1961 in Honolulu, HI - even though he was required to do so if he could certify that as the way the event actually happened.
And of course, I know you know that. This is just so clear I can’t imagine anybody not seeing it.
There is well-founded suspicion that what Team Obama released to the world is most emphatically NOT what they received from the HIDOH. No amount of parsing can get around it.
It is not therefore the duty of state officials to seek the documentation. Clearly, their duty is to remove the suspicious candidate from the ballot. It is the prospective candidate's duty to provide the documentation.
There is no obligation on the part of the HIDOH to provide Kansas authorities with anything. There are no civil proceedings underway.
We have a prima donna who has skated through life, skipping requirements yet again.
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