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Biden Won the Argument but Ryan Won the Debate
http://libertarian-neocon.blogspot.com/2012/10/biden-won-argument-but-ryan-won-debate.html ^ | libertarian neocon

Posted on 10/12/2012 9:11:14 AM PDT by libertarian neocon

As I posted yesterday, I was worried about Ryan going into the debate and it was justified.  Unlike Biden, who has run for President twice and is in his second run for VP, Ryan never has been in a formal, moderated debate at the national level and so was a little unsure of himself from the get-go.  He really only warmed up near the very end when he rattled off all the broken promises for this administration (it seems by then Biden got too tired to interrupt him).  So Biden won the argument.  He won by interrupting him at least 80-90 times during the debate, which is saying something considering Ryan only spoke for 40 minutes (that comes out to an average of an interruption every 30 seconds).  He was clearly trying to belittle him with his smirks, his head-shaking, his guffaws, his eye-rolling, all of that stuff and it worked.  It also kept Ryan from being able to give any of his arguments any momentum (even the moderator, with personal ties to Obama got into the act of interrupting Ryan). 

But Ryan still won the debate.  Presidential and Vice Presidential debates are not about scoring argumentative points like in some high school debating club, its about perception and how you come across.  Ryan came across as youthful, competent (though a little nervous at first) and unflappable.  I think part of the Biden strategy was to piss off Ryan so much that he either yelled at Biden or yelled at the moderator to get Biden to stop.  As its always the second won to throw a punch who gets flagged in the NFL (and punished on the schoolyard), this could have produced a clip which showed Ryan to be un-Presidential and not ready for the pressure of the office.  Instead Ryan turned the other cheek and just kept going, not letting anything stop him.  Ryan left the debate without creating a single reason for a voter not to vote for him or creating a viral clip which could cost the campaign a few points by embarrassing Romney.  Also, by letting Biden be such an uncontrollable jerk, he pretty much gave Biden enough rope to hang himself, and he did.

Biden came across as incredibly rude and boorish.  Someone pointed out, he was the embodiment of the reason that women don't like debating men about politics, they just steamroll right over them.  And while not a single exchange from this debate will be remembered come election day, his demeanor (with the emphasis on "mean") will be.  People usually remember little things from debates which help send one candidate to victory and the other to defeat.  The famous Reagan vs. Carter debate was very close, Reagan only really got the best of Carter twice, once with "there you go again" and the other with his closing statement which asked "are you better off than you were 4 years ago".  George H.W. Bush lost against Clinton by looking detached when he checked his watch.  Al Gored audibly and rudely sighed when W was talking.  What Biden did was several orders of magnitude more memorable than all of those.  Essentially instead of lots of little gaffes, which is what people expected, his whole debate style was one very long gaffe. Most people wouldn't even want someone like that in their house, much less a heartbeat away from the White House. Here is what Peggy Noonan wrote which I completely agree with:

Last week Mr. Obama was weirdly passive. Last night Mr. Biden was weirdly aggressive, if that is the right word for someone who grimaces, laughs derisively, interrupts, hectors, rolls his eyes, browbeats and attempts to bully. He meant to dominate, to seem strong and no-nonsense. Sometimes he did—he had his moments. But he was also disrespectful and full of bluster. "Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy!" he snapped at one point. It was an echo of Lloyd Bentsen to Dan Quayle, in 1988. But Mr. Quayle, who had compared himself to Kennedy, had invited the insult. Mr. Ryan had not. It came from nowhere. Did Mr. Biden look good? No, he looked mean and second-rate. He meant to undercut Mr. Ryan, but he undercut himself. His grimaces and laughter were reminiscent of Al Gore's sighs in 2000—theatrical, off-putting and in the end self-indicting.

...

National Democrats keep confusing strength with aggression and command with sarcasm. Even the latter didn't work for Mr. Biden. The things he said had the rhythm and smirk of sarcasm without the cutting substance.
And so the Romney-Ryan ticket emerged ahead. Its momentum was neither stopped nor slowed and likely was pushed forward.
Or this from the always great John Podhoretz:

Debate aggression can be problematic. In a face-to-face confrontation in front of a huge audience that includes people whose minds aren't yet made up, it's probably better to stick in the shiv with a calm expression and a slight smile.
Recall that Rick Lazio never recovered from the moment when he crossed over to Hillary Clinton's podium during their 2000 senate race and"invaded her space" by thrusting a document at her. Obviously, there was a gender element there that was not at play here, but in truth, everybody has had the experience of tussling with someone exactly like Biden last night.
Biden was every raging older relative you've ever made the mistake of arguing with at a family dinner. When he talked, he talked and talked; when you talked, he laughed in your face and could barely contain himself.
If the others in your family liked what he had to say before he said it, you were surely rooting him on and forgiving of his excesses — but if they didn't, they surely thought he was an unseemly boor.
And those who didn't really have an opinion about the subject under discussion probably just wanted to crawl under the table, which won't lead to fond memories of the belligerent one.
Perhaps even more important, given the nature of politics in the Internet age, Biden's behavior lent itself to second- and third-day ridicule. Just as Howard Dean's "yeearrgh" call in Iowa in 2004 turned him into a laughingstock and Al Gore's sighs and eyerolls made him satirical fodder for "Saturday Night Live," Biden's wild expressions are going to launch a billion YouTubes and still photos and those animated GIFs that will populate Facebook and melt down Twitter and clog Gmail.
Still don't believe me?  Are you clinging to that CBS internet poll which showed that Biden won?  Let's just look at history.  The problem with instapolls is that it can take time for the impact of a debate performance to set in.  Last week's Romney vs. Obama debate was an exception given that everyone on the right and the left thought Romney creamed Obama.  Usually things are more subtle and the true impact of a debate isn't felt until after the instapolls.  Check out what they were saying the day after the first Presidential debate in 2000 (the one where Gore sighed too much):

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, that's why I'm here: your friendly neighborhood poll flasher. And what did the polls show? Well, all four networks did flash polls of debate watchers last night. Now here's our post-debate poll of polls.
The ABC News poll shows Gore winning the debate by three points, 42 to 39, and that's within the margin of error. Our own CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup flash poll has Gore winning by seven, 48 to 41, also within the margin of error. NBC News, Gore wins by 10. That's significant. CBS News, Gore by 14, also significant.
So I think we have the answer: Gore seems to have won by a small to moderate margin.

But what actually happened in the polls?  In the CNN tracking poll, Gore went from a 2 point lead the day of the debate to an 8 point deficit less than one week later!  The Democrats might have a spring in their step today but they could be crying tomorrow.  Now I don't expect too much of a bounce from this, this is a VP debate after all, but in a close race, every point counts. 

It should be fun next Tuesday for round 2 of Romney v. Obama.  I'm kind of hoping Obama tries the same schtick, in a town hall format that strategy will be nothing but a disaster, especially when running against someone who comes across as a mix of Jimmy Stewart and Mr. Rogers.


TOPICS: Government; Politics
KEYWORDS: 2012debates; 2012veep; biden; obama; romney; ryan

1 posted on 10/12/2012 9:11:19 AM PDT by libertarian neocon
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To: libertarian neocon
I disagree.
I think Biden never made a clear point, Biden only did his best to silence Ryan, which hurt Biden.
2 posted on 10/12/2012 9:13:42 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: libertarian neocon
Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them.


3 posted on 10/12/2012 9:13:54 AM PDT by ILS21R (The time is nigh.)
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To: ILS21R

Biden was the drunk at a cocktail party that all but other drunks want to get away from as soon as possible.


4 posted on 10/12/2012 9:17:17 AM PDT by Voltage
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To: libertarian neocon
I think Ryan did pretty good in that 2-on-1 debate format. I just wish he was allowed to complete a sentence.

Rules For Radicals, Rule 5: “Ridicule Is Man’s Most Potent Weapon”. Biden was in full-on ridicule mode.

Biden: Fear biter dog. Ryan: Best in show working dog. Martha, well....

Biden is clueless on the international/intelligence issues. Iran could easily get a rocket from North Korea to mount a nuke, and Slow-Joe would be in shock to see mushroom clouds over Israel and a US city. Slow-Joe told Israel a while back that Israel had better get used to a nuclear Iran. The man is an idiot, but he followed Barry's instructions to 'be yourself'.

5 posted on 10/12/2012 9:18:11 AM PDT by SERKIT ("Blazing Saddles" explains it all.......)
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To: libertarian neocon

My take away from last night’s debate: Biden’s teeth are extremely white.


6 posted on 10/12/2012 9:18:21 AM PDT by GSWarrior
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To: GSWarrior
My take away from last night’s debate: Biden’s teeth are extremely white.

Whenever I see people smiling like he did all night reminds me of used car salesman...

7 posted on 10/12/2012 9:20:46 AM PDT by trailhkr1
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To: libertarian neocon

How could he win the debate with demonstrably failed Blue Model economics?


8 posted on 10/12/2012 9:21:21 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: libertarian neocon
Ryan only spoke for 40 minutes (that comes out to an average of an interruption every 30 seconds ...

Add in the 31 Raddatz interruptions and that number comes down to about once every 24 seconds.

9 posted on 10/12/2012 9:22:50 AM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: libertarian neocon

Ryan was the statesman. Ryan won both argument and debate.


10 posted on 10/12/2012 9:24:04 AM PDT by stars & stripes forever (Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord!)
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To: libertarian neocon
Biden Won the Blowhardgument but Ryan Won the Debate...

There now, fixed..
11 posted on 10/12/2012 9:24:43 AM PDT by American Constitutionalist
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To: GSWarrior

“Biden’s teeth are extremely white.”

And extremely fake. Just like him.


12 posted on 10/12/2012 9:25:19 AM PDT by libertarian neocon
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To: libertarian neocon

Biden is considered to have won because he didn’t attempt to canabalize anyone.


13 posted on 10/12/2012 9:25:36 AM PDT by Leep (Forward! to serfdom)
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To: libertarian neocon

“Biden Won the Argument”

Malarky


14 posted on 10/12/2012 9:27:07 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: libertarian neocon

Last night Biden reminded me of the time G.W. Bush was trying to give the State of the Nation speech and Senator Kennedy was shaking his head and laughing like a bobble head doll, totally rude, childish and certainly not like the statesman we should expect from a higher office of the USA. Are there no more standards?


15 posted on 10/12/2012 9:30:41 AM PDT by vwbug
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To: libertarian neocon

Idiots don’t win arguments...and only fools argue with idiots. That is why Ryan won the debate. HE is not a fool and he refused to play one on TV.


16 posted on 10/12/2012 9:34:51 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills and none dare call it treason)
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To: Kansas58

bottle in front of me vs. frontal lobotomy.


17 posted on 10/12/2012 9:36:12 AM PDT by showme_the_Glory (ILLEGAL: prohibited by law. ALIEN: Owing political allegiance to another country or government)
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To: vwbug

Can you imagine in your worst nightmare that “smiley face” were ever in charge of anything?


18 posted on 10/12/2012 9:43:22 AM PDT by tiger63
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To: GSWarrior

Biden’s choppers, fake veneers, are blinding...and really, really creepy. Everything about him is fake.


19 posted on 10/12/2012 9:46:29 AM PDT by Mountain Mary (Pray for our Republic...)
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To: GSWarrior

Biden’s choppers, fake veneers, are blinding...and really, really creepy. Everything about him is fake.


20 posted on 10/12/2012 9:46:38 AM PDT by Mountain Mary (Pray for our Republic...)
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To: libertarian neocon
Let's use a football analogy (no, not the prissy-pants Communist football that's "the most popular sport in the world", but REAL football)- Obama kicked off to Romney, where he ran it back to the Obama 8 yard line. On first down, Ryan got it down to the four before Biden and Raddatz tripped him.

Now, it's second and goal from the four and all Romney has to do is punch it in against a battered, beaten Obama defense (coordinated by Jerry Sandusky). Because Ryan didn't punch it in, it's considered a win by the flag-burning media. However, after Romney scores in the next two debates, I hope he keeps running onsides kicks and long bombs.

Now if this were a Communist Football analogy, Romney badly deked Obama, and Obama's flopping on the ground like he's been shot, trying to get a ref to give Romney a Yellow Card. Romney passed the ball to Ryan, who shot a 60 mph. fastball at goalkeeper Joe Biden's head, where it richocheted off and now Romney is ready to take the rebound and score.

21 posted on 10/12/2012 9:55:05 AM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Obama does not have the work ethic to be Anti-Christ.)
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To: tiger63

Yes I can. That guy was chairman of Senate Foreign Relations committee wasn’t he? That is the caliber of Democrat leading our country each time they gain majority. Unbelievable but so true.


22 posted on 10/12/2012 9:55:15 AM PDT by outinyellowdogcountry
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To: GSWarrior
I could stomach about five minutes of this (tuned on the TV when they were talking about Iran).

My first impression...I could see the sweat and shine on Biden's skull. Between that and the creepy laughter, interruptions, and inappropriate facial expressions--I had to turn the tv off.

23 posted on 10/12/2012 9:56:49 AM PDT by Mrs.Liberty (Somewhere in Kenya AND Delaware, villages are missing idiots.)
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To: MuttTheHoople

lol, I love analogies and that was a good one!


24 posted on 10/12/2012 10:33:57 AM PDT by AllAmericanGirl44 (Fluck this adminstration of misfits.)
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To: libertarian neocon

Spewing hate, lies and evil venom at another person that you are supposed to be debating... is not winning... it is losing in the largest and most damaging way.

LLS


25 posted on 10/12/2012 10:47:10 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (OUR GOVERNMENT AND PRESS ARE NO LONGER TRUSTWORTHY OR DESERVING OF RESPECT!)
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To: AllAmericanGirl44; MuttTheHoople
My favorite analogy that describes debating a Liberal posted a couple months ago on FR...

Arguing with a liberal is like playing chess with a pigeon.
No matter how well you play chess,
the pigeon just knocks over all the pieces,
craps on the board,
spews some unintelligible profanities,
and struts around like he won.

26 posted on 10/12/2012 10:47:28 AM PDT by Bellagio
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To: libertarian neocon

How could Biden possibly have ‘won’ the argument when he was there representing Obama’s Marxist “fundamental transformation” of America? Did he really make a convincing case that it was a good thing? It’s an impossibility.


27 posted on 10/12/2012 11:52:17 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: MuttTheHoople
(no, not the prissy-pants Communist football that's "the most popular sport in the world", but REAL football)

LOL!

28 posted on 10/12/2012 11:58:14 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: ETL

“How could Biden possibly have ‘won’ the argument when he was there representing Obama’s Marxist “fundamental transformation” of America? Did he really make a convincing case that it was a good thing? It’s an impossibility.”

No, I was judging it issue by issue and if he was able to score debating points. Ryan couldnt score many points because Biden kept interupting him until the very end. I would have loved it if the moderator asked him about the fundamental marxist transformation of America. Now that would be must see tv!


29 posted on 10/12/2012 12:20:14 PM PDT by libertarian neocon
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To: Bellagio

Thanks, I think I saw that and had forgotten it!
It’s a good one :)


30 posted on 10/12/2012 12:22:40 PM PDT by AllAmericanGirl44 (Fluck this adminstration of misfits.)
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