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Failing Schools Able to Mark Themselves Up to a Passing Grade
Michigan Capitol Confidential ^ | 11/17/2012 | Tom Gantert

Posted on 11/20/2012 9:52:39 AM PST by MichCapCon

Every year, newspapers across the state print the report card that the state of Michigan gives its public schools for parents to see how well their children’s schools are doing.

But what the articles don’t tell readers is that many districts with failing marks in student achievement are allowed to give themselves a score of 100 percent for completing a report on how it plans to improve itself. In many cases, that self-reported “A” inflates would-be grades of “F” to a passing grade.

Schools across the state get an automatic “A” for filling out a report on “indicators of school performance.” The report focuses on the school’s plans for self-improvement. The automatic “A” accounts for one-third of the school’s Education YES! state report card grade.

In August, the Lansing State Journal published all the EducationYes grades for the schools in Lansing Public Schools.

The newspaper article cites Sheridan Road School with a grade of “C.” However, Sheridan Road School had an “F” in Reading and an “F” in Mathematics in its only grades on student achievement. But with the help of the automatic “A,” the school ended up with a “C.”

Newspapers across the state publish the report cards with the inflated grades. MLive listed the grades of hundreds of schools.

In the Grand Rapids School District, Congress Elementary was given a “C.” It got that passing grade despite getting “F”s in Reading and Mathematics — the only two areas of student achievement that were measured.

"Who is helped by this?” said Michael Van Beek, director of education policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

Van Beek said the system only helps districts that are failing in student achievement hide their grades.

"Parents aren’t helped by this because they don’t get an accurate assessment of how their school is performing,” Van Beek said.

Although plans for self-improvement are important, they should not carry nearly the same weight as student achievement when it comes to determining a report card grade, Van Beek said.

Two years ago, Michigan Capitol Confidential reported on a similar problem. At the time, a Michigan Department of Education spokesman said the automatic 100 percent grade was only for one year and that a new system would change it.

The MDE spokespeople didn’t return requests for comment on why a new system hasn't been implemented. The superintendents in the Lansing and Grand Rapids schools didn’t return emails seeking comment.


TOPICS: Education
KEYWORDS: arth; schools
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1 posted on 11/20/2012 9:52:43 AM PST by MichCapCon
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To: Springman; Sioux-san; 70th Division; JPG; PGalt; DuncanWaring; taildragger; epluribus_2; Chuck54; ..
Maybe we need right to learn laws.

If anyone wants to be added to the Michigan Cap Con ping list, let me know.
2 posted on 11/20/2012 9:58:03 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: MichCapCon

Public schools are child abuse,... ...and RICO criminal organizations.


3 posted on 11/20/2012 10:11:04 AM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: MichCapCon; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; ..

Another reason for the separation of School and State.


4 posted on 11/20/2012 10:12:29 AM PST by YHAOS
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To: MichCapCon
"Who is helped by this?” said Michael Van Beek, director of education policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

To ask the question is to answer it.

5 posted on 11/20/2012 10:16:47 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: YHAOS; MichCapCon; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; ...

“Another reason for the separation of School and State.”

Spirited: In the following passage, spiritual (cosmic) humanist John Dunphy makes plain that schools are temples where the counter-conversion of souls from the true God to the Gnostic tradition (spark of divinity within certain select beings) will take place:

“I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level—preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new—the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent in its promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of “love thy neighbor” will finally be achieved...humanism will emerge triumphant. It must if the family of humankind is to survive. (John J. Dunphy, “A Religion for the New Age,” The Humanist 43, no. 1, January/February 1983)

Because of spiritual humanism’s dominance in public education, some have even referred to tax-payer funded government schools as seminaries which are training the next generation of humanist priests. Ron Taylor aptly describes the ultimate Humanist goal:

“It is their stated goal...to steal one generation of children and teach them to place loyalty to the state above loyalty to family.” (Ron Taylor, Agenda 21: An Expose of the United Nations’ Sustainable Development Initiative and the Forfeiture of American Sovereignty and Liberties, Kindle Edition)


6 posted on 11/20/2012 1:17:05 PM PST by spirited irish
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To: YHAOS; MichCapCon; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; ...

“Another reason for the separation of School and State.”

Spirited: In the following passage, spiritual (cosmic) humanist John Dunphy makes plain that schools are temples where the counter-conversion of souls from the true God to the Gnostic tradition (spark of divinity within certain select beings) will take place:

“I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level—preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new—the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent in its promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of “love thy neighbor” will finally be achieved...humanism will emerge triumphant. It must if the family of humankind is to survive. (John J. Dunphy, “A Religion for the New Age,” The Humanist 43, no. 1, January/February 1983)

Because of spiritual humanism’s dominance in public education, some have even referred to tax-payer funded government schools as seminaries which are training the next generation of humanist priests. Ron Taylor aptly describes the ultimate Humanist goal:

“It is their stated goal...to steal one generation of children and teach them to place loyalty to the state above loyalty to family.” (Ron Taylor, Agenda 21: An Expose of the United Nations’ Sustainable Development Initiative and the Forfeiture of American Sovereignty and Liberties, Kindle Edition)


7 posted on 11/20/2012 1:18:11 PM PST by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish

I tell anyone who will listen to get your kids out of public schools. Grandparents may need to help.

Sure, we should fight to reclaim the public schools, but that will take years, decades maybe, and your kids only have now. You have to save them now.

Churches should build their own schools. It makes little sense to send missionaries to Africa and send their own kids to government schools. What have you accomplished if at the end you’ve lost your own kids? I see a lot of churches doing this already, and it is an effective outreach; many unchurched families are looking for an alternative to the public schools and find their way to church-supported or church-friendly private schools.

In the end, we have to build the culture we want to live in. We can’t wait for the government to build it for us. We have to build the schools we want to educate our kids in, we have to create the communities we want to raise them in, establish the news agencies we trust, make the music we want to surround ourselves with. But schools are first and foremost. Thats why the godless want so badly to control them.


8 posted on 11/20/2012 2:48:51 PM PST by marron
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To: cripplecreek; All
Maybe we need right to learn laws.

Lawsuits against teachers who are not performing?

Jailtime for frauds calling themselves "teachers"?

Open video access to classrooms for parents in which their children are attending?

Daily updated stats/scores on the internet on your children's performance in the classroom?

Students rating the performance of the "teacher" with comments sections available on the internet?

DISMANTLE the Department of Education. Underperforming. Unaccountable. Why are we paying for this bureaucracy? How many dollars have been wasted and how many students have been left uneducated?

9 posted on 11/20/2012 3:06:26 PM PST by PGalt
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To: marron

Amen!!! With regard to our children, the over-riding issue is not really the here and now but eternity. So if Christians “send missionaries to Africa and send their own kids to government schools” losing them may well mean the counter-conversion of their souls resulting in eternity in outer darkness.


10 posted on 11/20/2012 3:11:53 PM PST by spirited irish
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To: MichCapCon
Michigan gives its public schools for parents to see how well their children’s schools are doing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It is impossible to know how well a school is doing unless the hard work done by the parents, the child doing homework, private tutoring, and preschooing ( parent-led and private) are measured.

This has **NEVER** been done.

It is entirely possible that schools teach nothing and that it is the parents, child, and tutors who are doing the really hard work. It is possible that there are no “good” schools, merely very good parents.

Finally....It is my anecdotal observation that there is no difference between academically institutionalized children and successful homeschoolers in the amount of time spent at the kitchen table or child's desk doing “homework”. Both sets of families ( institutionalized and homeschooled) have similar home habits and value for education.

Conclusions; Schools teach very little. They are merely sending home a very expensive curriculum for the parents and child to follow IN THE HOME.

11 posted on 11/20/2012 4:37:08 PM PST by wintertime
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To: MichCapCon; 2Jedismom; 6amgelsmama; AAABEST; aberaussie; AccountantMom; Aggie Mama; agrace; ...

ANOTHER REASON TO HOMESCHOOL

This ping list is for the “other” articles of interest to homeschoolers about education and public school. This can occasionally be a fairly high volume list. Articles pinged to the Another Reason to Homeschool List will be given the keyword of ARTH. (If I remember. If I forget, please feel free to add it yourself)

The main Homeschool Ping List handles the homeschool-specific articles. I hold both the Homeschool Ping List and the Another Reason to Homeschool Ping list. Please freepmail me to let me know if you would like to be added to or removed from either list, or both.

12 posted on 11/20/2012 5:00:50 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: spirited irish

souls resulting in eternity in outer darkness.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why should God save this nation? Huh?

1) Millions can turn out for a chicken sandwich and Christians cant’ figure out how to peacefully and legally end abortion? Really?

2) 85% of our nation’s children attend the godless government indoctrination camps. What percentage of these students are from Christian homes? How many Christians are working for, establishing, and supporting these godless indoctrination camps? There are counties in this nation where the godless government schools would shut down tomorrow if Christians simply removed their kids.

Of the two issues above, the godless schools are worse. At least the little innocent victims of abortions fly directly into the arms of Jesus. As for those children who MUST learn to think and reason godlessly just to cooperate in the godless classroom, these children risk losing their eternal souls.

By the way, I have come to a personal decision:

I will not have a government teacher for a friend. It is EVIL to teach a child to think and reason godlessly, and if a government teacher is to keep their job this is what they must do. Government teachers are too evil, too stupid, or too much of a Useful Idiot to be a friend. And...I have special contempt for government teachers who claim to be Christian and/or conservative.

One of the problems with Christians working in the godless government schools is that it lulls naive and inexperience parents into believing that their local godless schools can’t be that bad. Hey! If Mrs. Honey Bun ( choir director, Sunday School teacher, and minister’s wife) works there, it can’t be that bad. ( Hint: Your school is just as godless as any government owned and run school in this nation.)


13 posted on 11/20/2012 5:04:23 PM PST by wintertime
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To: marron

Churches should build their own schools.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please don’t turn blue holding your breath for that! Why?

There are too many government school employees sitting in the pews, as well as the vendors to the schools (and their employees) and all those who have a relative working for the schools. Big K-12 education is big business and few ministers are willing to bite the hand putting money into the collection plate.

By the way, I wonder how many minsters have spouses that are teachers for the godless government owned and run indoctrination camps?


14 posted on 11/20/2012 5:08:46 PM PST by wintertime
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To: marron
Sure, we should fight to reclaim the public schools,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

They must be abolished. Government schools are fundamentally, to the core, a socialist-funded, single-payer, entitlement. That can NOT be reformed.

Also government schools have **never** been religiously neutral because a religious neutral existence is impossible for any sentient being. It is impossible to have a religiously neutral education. One must adopt either godless of God-centered worldview and neither is neutral in content or consequences.

15 posted on 11/20/2012 5:14:22 PM PST by wintertime
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To: PGalt

If a doctor lies to a patient, he likely to be sued.

Government teachers are always insisting that they are professions. OK...Then **SUE** them when they give grades, promotions, and even diplomas that are nothing but LIES! Far far too many lie to the child, the parent, and the taxpayer. Aggressive attorneys should go directly for their homes, savings, retirement, future earnings, and any malpractice insurance that they might have.


16 posted on 11/20/2012 5:19:12 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime
It is impossible to know how well a school is doing unless the hard work done by the parents, the child doing homework, private tutoring, and preschooing ( parent-led and private) are measured. This has **NEVER** been done.

If only there was someone with an advanced degree and nothing but times on their hands to take on this valuable and worthwhile endeavor. Of course that would require less talk and more action.

BTW spelling Nazi I believe the word is pre-schooling

17 posted on 11/20/2012 5:21:10 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: wintertime
Why? There are too many government school employees...

The reason is because the parents simply don't understand the nature of secular schooling, and the damage that it does to the formation of Christian children.

"What is a Christian school going to give me that my local school doesn't? Besides, my kids need to learn to get along with kids from other religions."

Priests and ministers need to teach PARENTS about the proper raising of children, and about Jesus' antipathy toward religious indifference.

It's an uphill climb, after many generations of gov't school babysitting. Like you, I'm not holding my breath. At this point, the only thing that will re-orient society toward God is significant suffering, which is likely to happen when our economy collapses.

18 posted on 11/20/2012 5:22:39 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: wintertime; metmom; sitetest
Metmom and Sitetest are these the comments of a rational human being? Is this the attitude of an "average" home school advocate?

By the way, I have come to a personal decision: I will not have a government teacher for a friend. It is EVIL to teach a child to think and reason godlessly, and if a government teacher is to keep their job this is what they must do. Government teachers are too evil, too stupid, or too much of a Useful Idiot to be a friend. And...I have special contempt for government teachers who claim to be Christian and/or conservative.

19 posted on 11/20/2012 5:57:25 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: wintertime; metmom; sitetest; marron
metmom, sitetest, and marron, Do comments like these do the cause of home schooling more harm or more good?There are too many government school employees sitting in the pews, as well as the vendors to the schools (and their employees) and all those who have a relative working for the schools. Big K-12 education is big business and few ministers are willing to bite the hand putting money into the collection plate.

By the way, I wonder how many minsters have spouses that are teachers for the godless government owned and run indoctrination camps?

20 posted on 11/20/2012 6:00:30 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

Actually, I see a number of churches doing this in our area, and others not tied to a specific church but church-oriented. The latter has had a fair amount of help from various churches.

The interesting thing I see is that people who are unchurched are pulled into orbit, they like a lot of people are looking for an alternative to the disaster that is the public school system. You want to evangelize your town? Start a K-12. The evangelization is indirect but sometimes thats the most effective kind. Build the world you want to live in and people will come.

The point is first, that there is no need for defeatism. God is good. Pray, make a plan, and go forward. Don’t wait for the government to clean up its act, build it yourself. And the second point is that we don’t really have a choice. The alternative becomes clearer by the day that giving our children to the public schools for the formative years of their lives is to undercut everything we are trying to do.

If you are serious, public school is increasingly not a choice anymore. Home school, or look for a parochial school or a church-friendly private school. Grandparents may have to help.


21 posted on 11/20/2012 6:29:17 PM PST by marron
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To: marron; wintertime

Do wintertime’s comments do the cause of homeschooling more harm or more good? That is all I want the answer to.


22 posted on 11/20/2012 6:33:02 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: wintertime
If a doctor lies to a patient, he likely to be sued.

Government teachers are always insisting that they are professions. OK...Then **SUE** them when they give grades, promotions, and even diplomas that are nothing but LIES! Far far too many lie to the child, the parent, and the taxpayer. Aggressive attorneys should go directly for their homes, savings, retirement, future earnings, and any malpractice insurance that they might have.

BUMP! BUMP!

23 posted on 11/20/2012 8:16:56 PM PST by PGalt
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To: verga
Dear verga,

Go back and read my first post to you.


sitetest

24 posted on 11/20/2012 8:24:29 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: MichCapCon

Headline contains my pet peeve. Public schools fail to educate. That is not what they are for. Public schools are there to create worship of the state. In that, they have been wildly successful.


25 posted on 11/20/2012 10:01:52 PM PST by Forgotten Amendments (I remember when a President having an "enemies list" was a scandal. Now, they have a kill list.)
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To: verga; wintertime
Metmom and Sitetest are these the comments of a rational human being? Is this the attitude of an "average" home school advocate?

Do you home school?

I used to think "wintertime" was a bit nuts. Not anymore. Her posts, with all the news I've read regarding public schools, are starting to ring true.

To wit: Forward: Boston Tea Party being taught as an act of terrorism

In Texas no less.

26 posted on 11/21/2012 3:12:09 AM PST by raybbr (People who still support Obama are either a Marxist or a moron.)
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To: sitetest
I have I am just hoping that if he/she sees it enough, it just might rein her/him in a bit. I am also hoping that the calmer more reasonable people will tell wintertime the truth about the damage that she/he is doing.
27 posted on 11/21/2012 4:30:06 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

When referring to another poster, it is common politeness here on Free Republic to ping that person.

But....I know that since you are a professional teacher this was just an oversight. As a professional you would never talk about a student behind his back without his permission and that of his parents. Government teachers would never do that.


28 posted on 11/21/2012 5:08:26 AM PST by wintertime
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To: MichCapCon

The Detoilet Pooblik Skrewl Collective at its best, baffle gabbing the taxpayers, just as some black tribal leader in Africa.

Going tribal, AKA “voting Democrat”, has consequences. The present condition of Detoilet, MI is proof positive that Nathaniel Grigsby’s grave has the correct message on it.


29 posted on 11/21/2012 5:10:41 AM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: verga
Dear verga,

I've been here at FR for nearly 15 years. I don't much care about the idiots who frequent the place. Once having determined that a poster is an idiot, I try to ignore him or her.

If you argue with fools, on-lookers may find it difficult to distinguish between you and the fools.

But, YMMV.


sitetest

30 posted on 11/21/2012 5:22:58 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: raybbr

Thank you.

Truth wins. Why?

1) Natural consequences
2) People are not stupid


31 posted on 11/21/2012 5:30:53 AM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

“One of the problems with Christians working in the godless government schools is that it lulls naive and inexperience parents into believing that their local godless schools can’t be that bad. Hey! If Mrs. Honey Bun ( choir director, Sunday School teacher, and minister’s wife) works there, it can’t be that bad. ( Hint: Your school is just as godless as any government owned and run school in this nation.)”

I am a Christian homeschooling dad who teaches in a public school. I make no apologies for my presence there, in fact, I see it as my calling, my ministry. I am on the front lines of the social breakdown going on all around us. I am a missionary living among those students who need Christ, seeking to live the Gospel before them (and, hopefully, before their parents, as well.) I am a testimony among my peers, should they choose to see it, that lets them know theirs is not the only way (or even the preferred way) to view their content areas. I have countered many a misguided thought offered up in class by my students, challenging what they’ve learned elsewhere, provoking them to think (to set their minds on things above, if you will.) I set before them a right view of choice and consequence, right thinking and wrong headedness. I do this before my unsaved students...and those who are saved, see it, can know that the Christian view they embrace has merit, has validity, can learn to stand up in a world of sin, and proclaim itself in boldness.

If Christian parents of my students talk with me about their child’s education, we usually get to discussing the realities on the ground of public education and they realize that they play a significant role in the teaching of their children, just as much as the school does. They don’t abdicate their responsibility in this area, they uphold it. Do not ascribe to them some lack of understanding of what’s going on. Yes, the beast must be starved. I’ve always entertained the idea that if an alternative were set up across the street from every public school in the land, one founded on Godly principles of instruction and discipline, then public schools would suffer the embarrassment of being shown for the failure that they truly are. Many here at FR are right to want to do this. But until such time, allow that there are those who are prayerfully doing what they can with what they have, given the situations into which God has placed.

Am I empowering Christian parents to continue to send their kids to fallen, broken schools? I don’t think so. They are confronted with a choice of what to do about their children’s education, just like all parents are. Should they take their kids out of public schools, including the one where I teach? Absolutely. Should I stop teaching in public schools? Absolutely not! There are sinners there who need to be saved. At the very least, there are young minds in there who need to have the garbage that they learn brought into balance (even if by one lone voice crying out in the wilderness).

Should you stop talking to me because I’m just a lousy public school teacher? Absolutely not! I’m a nice guy!


32 posted on 11/21/2012 5:43:23 AM PST by MarDav
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To: wintertime
You are welcome.

2) People are not stupid

Well, let's just say "Not all people are stupid".

33 posted on 11/21/2012 5:43:32 AM PST by raybbr (People who still support Obama are either a Marxist or a moron.)
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To: MarDav

Teachers in government schools must teach everything from within a godless worldview ( if they are to keep their job). In other words, just to cooperate in the godless classroom the child must learn to think and reason godlessly, at least while in the classroom.

Teachers who do not teach within the framework of a godless worldview are breaking the law and risk teaching the child that Christians are lawbreakers. If they attempt to sneak in a little Christian testimony they risk teaching the child that Christians are sneaky.

Somehow, I think that the work of real missionaries, who are truly and fully committed to spreading the gospel, will be harder ( not easier) if those they are teaching already have already been taught that Christians are sneaky lawbreakers.

Re: Government school workers as friends:

This is a personal decision on mine part. I am not specifically urging others to do it, but on a very personal level I do not want anyone for a friend who forces godlessness on a child or cooperates with it, supports the institution, or establishes this in any manner.


34 posted on 11/21/2012 5:17:02 PM PST by wintertime
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To: MarDav

I make no apologies for my presence there,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is no need whatsoever to apologize to me.

But....As it becomes more widely accepted that government schools are godless, others may begin to ask for an explanation.


35 posted on 11/21/2012 5:19:01 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime; metmom
Always with the (less than) thinly veiled insults. Please keep up these unwarranted attacks, it does so much for your cause. BTW you never answered if it bothers you that the nicest thing metmon could say about you was that your approach was "different". Or even that she refused to respond as to whether your methods were doing more harm than good.

You might consider asking her in private, of course the more astute of us already know the answer. Do you consider yourself astute?

36 posted on 11/21/2012 5:32:32 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: wintertime

“Teachers who do not teach within the framework of a godless worldview are breaking the law and risk teaching the child that Christians are lawbreakers.”

This is not factually true. I am well within my rights in the classroom to make students aware of the Christian world-view. Freedom of speech, and this includes religious expression, is still protected by the Constitution. I will take on the proclaimers of “separation of church and state” head on should they seek to stifle this (though I’ve never done or said anything that has drawn a challenge). As I teach in a fairly “churched” community, I am able to elicit responses to questions and comments from students whose background includes biblical teaching. In this way, I invite, encourage and VALIDATE their input. Both the saved and the unsaved in my classroom see this. I am actually attempting to educate the next generation that the Christian perspective is just as valid as the secular in public discourse—something sadly lacking in today’s marketplace of ideas .


37 posted on 11/21/2012 6:41:58 PM PST by MarDav
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To: wintertime

Essentially, the public schools are asking the parents, under the guise of *helping the kids with their homework*, to homeschool their children on the kids off school hours.

What parents are doing when they are *helping their kids with their homework* is homeschooling them.

Years ago when I was finishing up my college degree, some neighbor parents asked me to tutor their daughter in chemistry. I simply used the curriculum she had from school and did nothing different than what I ended up doing successfully homeschooling my own kids years later. A couple hours a week and her grades shot way up, much to the great chagrin to the rest of the kids in the class.

After a couple sessions with her and her grades on the next test, I had 4-5 kids sitting around the table with us, her friends who also wanted the help.

Public education is a failure if non-certified to teach parents are doing a better job of educating their children at home in a couple hours a day than certified, *trained* teachers are doing in HOURS a day, 5 days a week, 10 months per year.


38 posted on 11/21/2012 11:11:58 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: verga; wintertime; sitetest

I don’t see that wintertime’s decision is not rational considering the basis for it.

If someone truly believes what wintertime does about government school teachers, then the decision is not surprising and is wintertime’s prerogative.

I can’t say that I’ve encountered that kind of thinking much in the circles in which I run, but what does it matter if it’s the attitude of the *average* homeschooler? It’s irrelevant to anything.

For that matter, I don’t know that there is actually any thing as the *average* homeschooler or homeschool advocate. I don’t think such a person exists. What’s *average* exactly?

But of course, the failure of public schools to educate and the propensity for them to indoctrinate, are widely recognized by homeschool advocates, or they wouldn’t advocate for homeschooling. So in that respect, wintertime’s attitude is no surprise. Some people are just more outspoken than others and are more interested in getting the truth out than worrying about hurting someone else’s feelings.


39 posted on 11/21/2012 11:26:25 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: verga; marron; wintertime; sitetest

Your obsessing about wintertime is doing YOU more harm than good. It simply cannot be good for your health to be so obsessed with someone that you let it eat at you like that.

Let it go.


40 posted on 11/21/2012 11:28:39 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: verga; wintertime
Please keep up these unwarranted attacks, it does so much for your cause. BTW you never answered if it bothers you that the nicest thing metmon could say about you was that your approach was "different". Or even that she refused to respond as to whether your methods were doing more harm than good.

Well, it would depend on which side of the homeschool argument you're on.

For the easily offended or perpetually offended, ANY criticism of public schools, will do more harm than good. For Pete's sake, the mere existence of homeschoolers offends some. Doesn't matter what they say.

Unfortunate part for public schoolers is wintertime is right about most of what he(she) says.

Disclaimer: There is virtually no one with whom I agree 100%, so that comment is not any reflection on the content of wintertime's remarks.

41 posted on 11/21/2012 11:36:32 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
What a great way to dance around how you really feel. But we both know that in the past you have taken certain unnamed members of your list to task for comments including inciting/ promoting violence.

Have a happy and blessed Thanksgiving.

42 posted on 11/22/2012 2:49:07 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: MarDav
What does Christ do with the lukewarm? He spits them out of His mouth.

There is no possible way, that a government teacher could teach in the same spiritual manner as my seventh grade nun, Sister Mary Victoria. They would be fired within the day. And....They would be forcing their Christian religious worldview on captive children who are in the godless government classroom under threat of police and court action. ( It isn't Christian to use force to impose one’s worldview on captive children).

Christian teachers who attempt to include some lukewarm Christian awareness in godless schools risk teaching the children that Christianity is merely one of several “points of view” of which they should be aware, or that worldviews, other than Christianity, are equally valid. They are not.

What are the students learning when Christianity is presented as, “Oh!...By the way, boys and girls, here's another point of view...a Christian take on the matter.” ? Would Christ spit this out of His mouth?

I attended parochial schools for 10 years and a Catholic university. My last two years of high school and graduate school were in secular ( godless) government schools.

I testify, from personal experience, that there is a HUGE difference between an education solidly founded on a Christian worldview ( specifically one denomination of Christianity) and secular government schools. In the faith-based schools **everything** was examined and lived through the lens of faith in God and His will. The writings of our church leaders were referred to frequently, all school policies and events were based on Christian principles, even in math and science classes. In the government schools, if God ever was acknowledged it was merely a nod or two in His direction.

And....One of the worst things a Christian teacher does is beguile naive parents into believing their child's godless school can't be that bad.

Hint: It is very bad when the secular teachers, secular curriculum, and secular textbooks convey to the child that godless secularism is the most valid way to live their life.

Hint: It is even worse when Christians sneak in Christianity or do so in a lukewarm manner. The risk here is that children will learn the false idea that Christianity is sneaky and lukewarm.

43 posted on 11/22/2012 6:11:40 AM PST by wintertime
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To: metmom
Exactly!

Unless the “helping with homework” is measured it is impossible to know if a so-called “good” government school is, indeed, good or not.

This “helping with homework” has never been measured!

Gee! Think about this. Consider the long commutes ( time away from the child) burdensome mortgages, second jobs, and both parents working. It is astonishing what parents will do to get their child into a so-called “good” school and no one has ever measured the “helping with homework” done by the parents in that so-called “good” school.

By the way....When I have questioned parents with academically successful children both the institutionalized and home educated children have parents who are doing the **same** amount of “helping with homework”. NO difference!

44 posted on 11/22/2012 6:21:40 AM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime
By the way....When I have questioned parents with academically successful children both the institutionalized and home educated children have parents who are doing the **same** amount of “helping with homework”. NO difference!

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

45 posted on 11/22/2012 6:23:55 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: wintertime

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

I daresay that Christ would not spit my efforts out of his mouth as they are done in seeking to glorify Him. The lukewarm-ness to which you refer (from Revelation) describes the [absence of] love found in the church of Laodicea. It is my very love for Him which I seek to manifest to the lost. That it is done in a godless institution, that it may reap little or no positive results, it nevertheless demonstrates to the Lord my love for Him. That it doesn’t measure up to your standard of a testimony is irrelevant. It may be that by testifying to the Lord in whatever way s/he can, the Christian teacher working in the government schools of today do just as much as any foreign missionary. Do you think missionaries working overseas simply go out and overpower one culture with another? No. They go out, join themselves to a people, live a Godly example before them and then, as occasion arises, are able to give a word, in season, concerning their faith. Paul would say, “But now, I show you a better way...”

Now, on the other hand, those that would withdraw from the spiritual warfare, attempt to set up their own little “private Eden” somewhere and then wait for the world to discover its eternal bliss somehow may be the ones who will have to give an account as to the burying of their 1 talent. That’s not for me to say; that’s up to the Lord. The Christian teacher is taking their 10...or 5...or 1 talent and trying to gain 10/5/1 more for the Lord. That you do not see this as anything but a negative is puzzling...or don’t you believe that the Lord can use even the (few) opportunities that present themselves in the public schools of this country to further His Kingdom through His instruments on school faculties? I have had more opportunities to share my faith in the schools where I have taught than most Christians have had—without being disobedient to the laws of the land or the Lord of Glory.


46 posted on 11/22/2012 1:10:18 PM PST by MarDav
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To: MarDav

Teachers who agree to establish, support, and run godless schools are **willingly** creating spiritual wastelands. They agree, even seek, to run the godless government camps that spiritually starve children.

True missionaries wouldn’t do that.


47 posted on 11/22/2012 1:38:18 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

True missionaries go to where souls needing to be saved are, be it in a godless school, any other godless place of employment, a godless neighborhood, a godless nation. Think about any workplace. Is it permissible for most Christians on the job-site to openly witness and share Christ with their co-workers? If they don’t are they betraying their Lord and Savior with a lukewarm testimony where their silence (which brings them job security) is more important to them than their Lord who loved them and gave Himself for them? Where do you work? Is it with your boss’s approval that you openly preach the gospel to your co-workers? If you are attempting to witness to others without your boss’s permission to do so, are you not “stealing” [time] from him/her? Are you not being disobedient to authorities if you are doing this behind your boss’s back? If you are not witnessing to your co-workers, are you not willingly helping to establish, and thus, support a godless workplace? No. What the Christian employee is to do is to work, and work in such a way so as to satisfy the demands of the job set forth by the employer and do all things as unto the Lord. You sound as if you are saying that a) the school system is somehow different from society at large (it is not—it is a reflection of society at large) and b) that parents are not the primary educators in the life of children (they are). We live in a fallen world. The schools in that world are part of a fallen system. Many of the people who fill these public schools are still in their sin. But this is true of every work place in America. The Christian educator, the Christian student is in the world, but not of the world. They can’t lose their salvation, but they can serve as salt and light to those who stand outside of the salvation found in Christ. No Christian I know is willingly trying to create spiritual wastelands. How can they if they have the Spirit of God in them! They create spiritual oases in a world that is already a spiritual wasteland. I don’t spiritually starve children. I give what, for some of them, might be the only spiritual food they will eat on any given day. It is not my job to save them, that’s God’s area of expertise. It is my job to sow seed.

Your anger and venom is misdirected. You are accusing the Christians who teach of perpetuating a godless, secular school system, of enabling “weak” Christian parents into believing that public schools are somehow doing a fine job (when all the evidence is clear for anyone to see that our schools are suffering terribly on account of the nation’s turn away from God). You have a misguided view of these teachers, who are trying to work within the system of the god of this age in an area where souls need saving or need to see an example of a Godly Christian testimony to buttress their faiths. They are not responsible for the mess of public schools any more than the foreign missionary is responsible for the chaos s/he finds on the mission field. They go to the field. They work within its bounds, establishing relations with the people and as opportunities arise, they minister Christ. I’d say that’s a pretty fair description of my work day. You also have a very weak opinion of these parents, who, doing what they can with the realities that they may be dealing with (Satan uses the economic realities to capitalism to squeeze even Christians into situations they might not otherwise choose) find they need to avail themselves of the feeble education offered in the local public school. They don’t need your condemnation, they need your prayer. Some of them might be “weak” (lacking discernment?) when it comes to spiritual matters, others might be attending a church meeting where error abounds...I don’t know. But if they are Christian, assume they realize the responsibility before God they have in the “training up” of their children, that they are the primary means of spiritual teaching for their children and that they, understanding the world in which they live, realize the need to “send [them] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: [that they are to be] therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”

All that being said, I home-school my children. I would encourage Christian parents to do likewise, if at all possible. I would love to see Christ-centered places of learning spring up all over this land. And, all that being said, I would probably still choose to teach in the public school. There are many, many kids that I’ve met and am meeting, whom I’ve gotten to know, whom I’ve grown to like who are heading toward a lost eternity because they don’t have a life-saving relationship with Christ Jesus.


48 posted on 11/22/2012 7:31:37 PM PST by MarDav
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To: MarDav

Wow! That’s a dense block of text.

Later!


49 posted on 11/22/2012 8:30:51 PM PST by wintertime
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To: MarDav
True missionaries go to where souls needing to be saved are,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ok based on the first sentence of your post:

Really? Missionaries should go where souls need saving?

Christians should go work in abortion centers, collect the money, and hand the instruments to the abortionist and clean up the mess afterward? Really? Hey! There are souls to be saved in almost any abortuary!

Should Christian teachers establish godless schools, teach a godless worldview, hand out and grade godless homework and textbooks, and force children to think and reason godlessly so that the child can cooperate in the godless classroom? Should they actually **work** in such and evil place or should they be doing all that is possible to rescue children and get them **out** of these pits of depravity?

An aborted baby flies directly into the arms of Jesus. A child in a godless school, being taught to think and reason godless may not lose his life but risks losing his eternal soul.

If abortion centers are evil and Christians picket outside, then maybe this would be the Christian thing to do in front of godless government schools.

50 posted on 11/22/2012 8:40:50 PM PST by wintertime
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