Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Navy's P-8 A Dud?
The Nav Log ^ | 1/31/13 | asa663

Posted on 01/31/2013 7:29:39 AM PST by pabianice

Report: Navy's P-8 Aircraft Plagued with Problems; Deployment in Doubt

(c) asa663@verizon.net

Received from a former P-3 crewmate. It would appear that there are some serious development problems with the new P-8 aircraft.

Here is some input from a friend, USN Retired, who is working for a defense contractor who has a contract with both P-3 and P-8 development. He is working with the P3 but has a LOT of input from the P-8 part of the company. Three cases in point about the waste of our defense establishment.

Sonobouy launching: The P-8 can’t launch sonobouys at any high speed. The aircraft has to slow down to a very (below P-3 speed) to launch sonobouys. The precludes open ocean search from high altitude due to the speed. The aircraft has a very sophisticated launch package that fires the sonobouys straight down which causes them to angle aft in the slip stream and hang up in the tube. Still not resolved. [This is utterly brain-dead; not accounting for a sonobouy's ballistic launch -- Ed.]

Sonobuoy launching: To launch the bouys, the Navy and Boeing decided it needed a very high pressure air expulsion system. Thus there is a tank at about 6000 PSI to achieve the launch of a series of bouys. Great, EXCEPT that Boeing installed quite a SMALL reservoir which means it has to be recharged fairly often. The compressor chosen is small which means that it takes 2-3 hours to recharge the reservoir. Those assessing survivability pointed out that a single round to the reservoir, while the A/C is on the ground, would blow up the whole aft section of the A/C. So . . . now the recommendation is that the reservoir be discharged while the A/C is on the ground. Whoops. To recharge the reservoir with the small compressor would take 8 hours. Sooo now there is a suggestion that to quickly recharge that 6000 PSI reservoir that bleed air from the engine be used to quickly do the recharge!!!. Imagine all the extra plumbing and valves to do that.

Ocean surveillance: For years ALL merchant ships have had to have a transponder giving their name, location, port of call, cargo, etc. P-3's have had a receiver on board for years able to receive this information. If you have a private craft and wish to be able to know what ships are around you it is possible to buy a receiver for about 5,000 dollars which has extensive decoding capability. The P-8 does NOT have such a receiver. The Navy apparently failed to specify that such a devise was required to be in the electronics package. Now the Navy is asking for such a receiver, called ASI, to be included. Boeing says to add another receiver would cost, are you ready for this, $60 Million!!!!! This is their cost to do all the drawings and run all the cables, etc.!!!

So, between the Navy screwing up and Boeing milking the cash cow, we have a P-8 that basically cannot drop sonobouys [a major component of ASW] and unable to monitor merchant shipping, a major component of ocean surveillance.

YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK.

This confirms/details the "problems" suggested by a retired Pax River engineer (Contractor) at a social gathering. He particularly noted low level performance/on station time. He blamed the [inappropriate?] choice of the Boeing on Navy brass who wanted a "real jet plane" in lieu of the turbo prop. (Can you spell "S-3 Viking?") That claim may or not be a reflection of the process. I thought he might be biased against Boeing as a Lockheed guy ... but he apparently understated the situation (he didn't want to talk too much in negative terms to me . . a guy he had just met)

BTW, the term "system bugs" in the Subject line seems like a SERIOUS understatement. You don't work the "bugs" out of low level on-station time measured in minutes due to fuel temperature. That is not a software "fix."

No details of the other "weather, take-off, and flight envelope restrictions" which do not sound trivial Remaining aircraft weather, take-off, and flight envelope restrictions should not significantly affect mission operations and are on track for resolution prior to P-8A operational deployment.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: aerospace; navair; p8

1 posted on 01/31/2013 7:29:40 AM PST by pabianice
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: pabianice

The P-3 had sonobuoy tubes that were angled aft so that the airstream would assist in pulling the thing out of the tube.
Wonder what the name of the genius was that decided a fast aircraft didn’t need angled tubes.


2 posted on 01/31/2013 7:35:11 AM PST by Darksheare (Try my coffee, first one's free.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Darksheare

You mean a brand new plane is not as one that has been in service for 50 years? I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell ya! What do you MEAN engineers don’t always get it right the first time? Off with their heads!


3 posted on 01/31/2013 7:44:38 AM PST by TalonDJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: TalonDJ

Considering the P-8 is a faster plane, they should have taken into consideration the slipstream.
The designers of the P-3 did.
*snort*


4 posted on 01/31/2013 7:46:45 AM PST by Darksheare (Try my coffee, first one's free.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

There is an old movie that contains a scene where a defense contractor, when his defective system is unmasked, rails that it didn’t matter that it didn’t work; what mattered was the lucrative contract terms including follow on maintenance and upgrades.


5 posted on 01/31/2013 7:48:54 AM PST by Truth29
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Darksheare
The P-3 had sonobuoy tubes that were angled aft so that the airstream would assist in pulling the thing out of the tube.

Actually, the tubes were angled aft so that at a predetermined airspeed from a pre-determine height AGL (AGW?), the sonobuoy would land in the same spot where it was deployed. The way those things shot out of the tube, they didn't need airstream assist.

This is important in a submarine prosecution where you might have two DIFAR buoys indicating a target position and you wanted to drop a pinger on top - or even just another LOFAR to verify the contact before a MAD run.

To the article, the small size of the air bottle is doubly stupid because the TACCO will usually be punching out buoys every minute or so (or less) to establish a line. To be a single shot makes no sense.

I'm not surprised the P-8 is screwed up. I've had bad feelings about this concept since I first heard of it. It's just another example of non-players doing the designing, IMHO.

6 posted on 01/31/2013 8:01:51 AM PST by grobdriver (Sic semper tyrannis!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

Boeing, run by the MBA/PMP crowd with zero experience in the programs they manage. They literally hire people with an MBA and a PMP certificate that has no knowledge of aviation, electronics, computers, software, military systems, etc. and put them in charge of making critical decisions they know nothing about. Boeing looks down on engineers as “techies” and the MBA/PMP crowd does their best never to hire an engineer within their ranks as to not make themselves look bad by comparison.

This is the same Boeing that a few years ago spent millions of dollars gathering the chief executives from around the word into one room just so some big fat black racist woman could lecture them on ensuring they hire more blacks and then distributing a video of that racist tongue lashing to all employees as a mandatory training film at a cost of even more millions of dollars.


7 posted on 01/31/2013 8:10:59 AM PST by CodeToad (Liberals are bloodsucking ticks. We need to light the matchstick to burn them off.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: grobdriver

No problem. Totally redesign the sonobuoys so that they can all be released at high altitude on a slow pass.

Give them pop out wings and GPS guidance. You can put them in any array you want.

They could spread out into a geometrically exact arrangement perfect for ideal detection, after only an hour or so of gliding and maneuvering.

Piece of cake.

I bet I could do the whole project for under a billion...


8 posted on 01/31/2013 8:12:09 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable Tyranny)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: null and void
I bet I could do the whole project for under a billion

Heh.
You should submit a bid.

9 posted on 01/31/2013 8:18:34 AM PST by grobdriver (Sic semper tyrannis!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad

About time to hold those responsible accountable. I think a firing squad is in order. Properly motivated, one would be surprised at the results that can be achieved.

I recall hearing long ago that NASA one time spent millions to develop a pen that would work in zero grav. Rusians used a pencil instead.


10 posted on 01/31/2013 8:24:00 AM PST by Mouton (108th MI Group.....68-71)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: grobdriver; null and void

LOL, but then you’d also have to figure in overhead and glitches that devour whole towns.


11 posted on 01/31/2013 8:25:32 AM PST by Darksheare (Try my coffee, first one's free.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: grobdriver

The P-8 has no MAD. It is designed to fly at high altitude to save fuel. Sono drops from 20,000 feet? Morons. Yes, Boeing has no idea what it is doing.


12 posted on 01/31/2013 8:48:47 AM PST by pabianice (washington, dc ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Darksheare
The P-3 had sonobuoy tubes that were angled aft so that the airstream would assist in pulling the thing out of the tube.
Wonder what the name of the genius was that decided a fast aircraft didn’t need angled tubes.

Actually it necessarily doesn't. This pat.app. explains it.

It's launching from the Sonobouy Launch Container that is the problem. That powerful blast of compressed air just blows the bottom seal clear. The Sonobouy has to make its own way out by gravity (with slipstream assist in the case of the P-3)

The other way is used by the BAe Nimrod

(biggest mistake the BritDef ever made abandoning it)

Sonobouys are stored internally

crewman loads bare sonobouys into revolver launcher

Bouys are ejected vertically under positive pressure through close fitting tubes

System worked since the 60s

13 posted on 01/31/2013 8:50:24 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (I think, therefore I am what I yam, and that's all I yam - "Popeye" Descartes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

The Japanese already have their P3 replacement flying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_P-1

they could not wait while the US was messing around. I’m pretty sure theirs could launch sonobuoys with no problems.

The JASDF is the second largest users of the P3 aircraft. They learned their lesson in the Pacific war where a handful of US subs did a lot of damage to their merchant fleet.


14 posted on 01/31/2013 8:51:53 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: null and void

The P-8 is designed to carry torpedo glide bombs; they glide down to the target from 20,000 feet, controlled from onboard the aircraft. This is right up there with the BAMS UCAV, also to be controlled from aboard the P-8. There is no money for BAMS, either. 108 P-8s (down from 156) are supposed to use BAMS to equal the former P-3 fleet of 456 aircraft.


15 posted on 01/31/2013 8:52:54 AM PST by pabianice (washington, dc ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Oztrich Boy

Ah yes, the British Nimrod.
Started out as the Air Comet.
Idiocy and budgetary squabbling killed it.
And the replacement as well if memory serves?

Sounds like the techs for the P-8 could learn something from the system the Nim used.


16 posted on 01/31/2013 8:54:39 AM PST by Darksheare (Try my coffee, first one's free.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Mouton
I recall hearing long ago that NASA one time spent millions to develop a pen that would work in zero grav.

Yes, you probably did hear that. Long ago.

It makes for great leftist propaganda.

It's also FALSE.

Do some research ... the internet is your friend.

17 posted on 01/31/2013 8:58:02 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

So that means another contract award to make a gliding torpedo?


18 posted on 01/31/2013 9:02:13 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

We did spend millions on uniforms that don’t work in the desert.


19 posted on 01/31/2013 9:06:35 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
The P-8 has no MAD. It is designed to fly at high altitude to save fuel. Sono drops from 20,000 feet? Morons. Yes, Boeing has no idea what it is doing.

In this case you can't blame Boeing. They gave it MAD. NAVAIR told them to take it out to save weight. If the customer really wants it, it can be fitted


20 posted on 01/31/2013 9:10:50 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (I think, therefore I am what I yam, and that's all I yam - "Popeye" Descartes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

I saw some really stupid things in my days as defense contractor. WE had a customer, once, that insisted on a yearly redesign to add some new features and remove some old features for a project. Of course, the price for the prototype went up every time. This was because the customers with the decision making authority were shuffled through the office once a year and each felt an overriding need to add his touch to the projects under his control.

We had another situation where, in the course of my work, I located 1,458 critical faults (3 errors replicated 486 times) the engineers had installed in the run sheets to be used to produce cables. With PM authority, I presented my findings to the engineering department along with the necessary corrections and told them to make the changes before the package got to the production floor. They submitted the changes to the “change review process” and the original floor package installed all of the mistakes. It cost over $60,000 and one month to correct the mistakes. The project had to be shutdown after that.

When I pointed out that this was going to hurt the over all program


21 posted on 01/31/2013 9:19:59 AM PST by Hawk1976 (It is better to die in on your feet than it is to live as on your knees.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: USAF80

Are you referring to “chocolate chip”?


22 posted on 01/31/2013 9:20:25 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Oztrich Boy

The MAD only works at low level and that means more gas burned. Low level flight would also do a number on the airframe as this is a commercial aircraft that was originally designed to take off, cruise straight and level and land.

Can it drop torpedoes at low level or do they have to slow down?


23 posted on 01/31/2013 9:20:41 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

The Chocolate Chip was close. The new ABUs or ACUs or whatever name they have for them now. The plain tan flight suits are the only ones that blend in.


24 posted on 01/31/2013 9:24:09 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Truth29
You, Sir, are referring to my personal hero, Mr. Dick Jones, Vice President of Omni Consumer Products.

His brainchild, the oft-maligned ED-209, would have revolutionized law enforcement and urban warfare, if it was only given the proper funding and attention. Sadly, the unexpected demise of Mr. Jones ensured that the ED-209 never received its due.

"I always knew where the line was drawn. And you just stepped over it, buddy-boy. You've insulted me. And you've insulted this company with that bastard creation of yours. I had a guarantee military sale with ED-209. Renovation program. Spare parts for 25 years. Who cares if it worked or not?
25 posted on 01/31/2013 9:24:33 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: USAF80
Right.

I'm not really clear on what the digital camo on the ACU is designed for; it doesn't seem to me to really match any environment.

26 posted on 01/31/2013 9:28:39 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

i followed the uniform board on this and it was supposed to match any environment. They had all the fancy setups that it blended in with and it looked as if it would work. Real life experience have proven otherwise.

I guess it works once it gets all dirty and faded.


27 posted on 01/31/2013 9:44:33 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

We aint got no mo Kelly Johnson’s, Glenn Martin’s, Jack Northrup’s etc. today. Our best and brightest have gone away.


28 posted on 01/31/2013 9:52:07 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

The Japanese P-1 has a MAD, four engines and the service ceiling is 13000 ft.

The Navy should buy its aircraft from them.


29 posted on 01/31/2013 10:00:42 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: USAF80

Torpedo with a wing kit (HAAWC):

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/haawc/mfc-haawc-pc.pdf


30 posted on 01/31/2013 10:01:24 AM PST by Strategerist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

Looks like the P-8’s compressor is mighty, and should be well up to the task, even without a big air tank.

http://compressors.rixindustries.com/item/aerospace-applications/gas-compressor-sabre-s-series/sabre-s?&bc=100|1002|1027


31 posted on 01/31/2013 10:07:32 AM PST by ltc8k6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ltc8k6

http://compressors.rixindustries.com/item/aerospace-applications/gas-compressor-sabre-m-series/sabre-m?&bc=100|1002|1027

It’s either the above one or this one.

Both are nothing that anyone should call “small”.


32 posted on 01/31/2013 10:08:47 AM PST by ltc8k6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard
I'm not really clear on what the digital camo on the ACU is designed for; it doesn't seem to me to really match any environment.

The US Navy BDU appears to be designed to stand out and look pretty so the new alternatively oriented recuits are comforable

As contrast the Australian Navy camo actually works

OK the above images are actually from a televisual drama Sea Patrol which however was Backed By Russell Hill and the uniforms were authentic reproductions of the real thing.


33 posted on 01/31/2013 10:17:19 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (I think, therefore I am what I yam, and that's all I yam - "Popeye" Descartes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: USAF80

My info says the P-1’s service ceiling is 44,000 feet.


34 posted on 01/31/2013 10:19:05 AM PST by pabianice (washington, dc ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Oztrich Boy

I like the photo of the 4 foot 10 inch US Navy officer reviewing the troops in Aquaflage. She’d be a real help in a damage control situation.


35 posted on 01/31/2013 10:21:59 AM PST by pabianice (washington, dc ..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

13000 meters =44000 ft

Blind in one eye and can’t see out the other.


36 posted on 01/31/2013 10:29:16 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Oztrich Boy

I have spent some time working with RAAF; they wore similar (maybe same) camouflage. I’m not clear on why sailors aboard ship would wear camo at all ...


37 posted on 01/31/2013 10:41:07 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: pabianice
She’d be a real help in a damage control situation.

That's sexist /s/

38 posted on 01/31/2013 10:56:47 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

..something to do with them looking military.

What’s up with the name tags on their rear ends? (Back when they wore blue jeans.)


39 posted on 01/31/2013 10:58:59 AM PST by USAF80
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: TalonDJ; Darksheare
What do you MEAN engineers don’t always get it right the first time?

And because engineers don't get it right the first time, it creates employment for the ones who really make things work. We're called Field Engineers...

40 posted on 01/31/2013 11:05:26 AM PST by NoCmpromiz (John 14:6 is a non-pluralistic comment.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

I think she is checking for nose hair.


41 posted on 01/31/2013 11:08:59 AM PST by toast
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: grobdriver; null and void
I bet I could do the whole project for under a billion...You should submit a bid.

And when you win the bid, subcontract it to... Boeing ;-)

42 posted on 01/31/2013 11:10:10 AM PST by NoCmpromiz (John 14:6 is a non-pluralistic comment.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: USAF80

I still have some ‘rifle team’ gear from my aeons ago high-power shooting days. Team insignia and name are on the back.

That’s what everybody sees when you’re on the line.


43 posted on 01/31/2013 11:15:46 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Truth29

Robocop

Discussing ED209


44 posted on 01/31/2013 2:43:09 PM PST by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: USAF80

racist too

/s


45 posted on 01/31/2013 2:48:29 PM PST by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Hawk1976

Me too! I was once the the designer of an automated controls system for coal fired boilers to be installed on coal transport ships. Supposedly, this was an entirely now concept that had never been attempted. Bear in mind at that time I had never burned a lump of coal except in shovel fed hot water heater and a barracks heater but I did have extensive oil fired boiler control experience. So doing my research I discovered that an Australian Company had long ago accomplished my project in real life and had a half dozen or so steaming merrily away in the Pacific carrying coal from Australia to Japan. We completed the project never mentioning the Australian accomplishments and was paid very well.


46 posted on 02/01/2013 6:19:56 AM PST by BTCM (Death and destruction is the only treaty Muslims comprehend.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: null and void

What about a fleet of Global Hawk and Reaper to deliver the torpedos and Sonobouys? Sounds to cheap?


47 posted on 02/01/2013 6:22:24 AM PST by MHalblaub ("Easy my friends, when it comes to the point it is only a drawing made by a non believing Dane...")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: pabianice

Unfortunately that is no officer. From her badge she looks to be the Command Master Chief.


48 posted on 02/01/2013 11:10:19 PM PST by GATOR NAVY
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson