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Report: Vets may be deemed incompetent without due process, cannot own firearms
The Examiner ^ | February 22, 2013 | Joe Newby

Posted on 02/23/2013 11:29:16 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

On Thursday, Michael Connelly, J.D., executive director of the United States Justice Foundation​, said that veterans are receiving letters informing them that the government is about to declare them incompetent to handle their own affairs. As a result, Connelly said, the government will "appoint a stranger" to handle their affairs at their expense, and restrict them from owning firearms. Worse yet, he says, this is being done without due process.

“A determination of incompetency will prohibit you from purchasing, possessing, receiving, or transporting a firearm or ammunition. If you knowingly violate any of these prohibitions, you may be fined, imprisoned, or both pursuant to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, Pub.L.No. 103-159, as implemented at 18, United States Code 924(a)(2),” the letter reportedly says.

According to Connelly, the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs has sent this letter to "hundreds, perhaps thousands" of veterans.

"In my capacity as Executive Director of the United States Justice Foundation (USJF) I have been contacted by some of these veterans and the stories I am getting are appalling," he added.

The letter contains no specifics and gives no reason for the proposed judgment other than to say that someone in the VA has made the recommendation. The letter then tells the veteran that he or she must provide evidence to the contrary within 60 days. If the veteran desires a hearing, they must inform the VA within 30 days...

(Excerpt) Read more at examiner.com ...


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Government; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; military; obama; secondamendment; veterans

Meanwhile, in Obama's New Model Army...

1 posted on 02/23/2013 11:29:32 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Just another part of the Constitution they want to circumvent! I am really getting tired of all of the anti-Constitutional acts by this Government! What’s worse is that our so called elected Representatives don’t seem to notice the flagrant bills that are Unconstitutional!

Why vote for any of them these days?


2 posted on 02/23/2013 11:36:34 PM PST by Deagle (quo)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
This is part of the pushing and prodding trying to get a violent reaction to the actions of the administration to "justify" a totalitarian crackdown on the population--especially those who understand current tactics and are knowledgeable in re current equipment.

A few years back I'd have thought that pure tinfoil hat material.

Those of us who are not in this particular bind should have an 'extra' and at least a couple of basic ammo loads to share with a friend if the shtf.

If it gets nasty, they can at least wish for more wishes...

3 posted on 02/23/2013 11:43:18 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Smokin' Joe; Deagle

What Good Can a Handgun Do Against An Army?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/2312894/posts


4 posted on 02/24/2013 12:24:12 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (I'll raise $2million for Sarah Palin's presidential run. What'll you do?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Does anyone know if this letter is really being sent out? It sounds so preposterous that I’ve been dismissing it as tinfoil hat stuff, but I’m starting to see this same story from different sources now. Do any Freepers have firsthand knowledge of this story? Thanks!!


5 posted on 02/24/2013 12:58:48 AM PST by Hetty_Fauxvert (FUBO, and the useful idiots you rode in on!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

In every jurisdiction I have ever worked in, “competence” is a matter of court-determined cognitive abilities, not a matter of sanity. Competence is also situation specific.

For instance, a person may be crazy as a loon, but if they are capable mentally do basic math, balance a check book, pay their bills, and shop and prepare their own food and such, they cannot be declared incompetent with regard to their monies, and a conservator to handle their finances cannot be appointed against their will, even if they choose to spend their money on drugs and alcohol, etc.

Similarly, an ill person with intact cognitive functions who cognitively understands their medical condition and the proposed treatments, yet chooses to forego recommended lifesaving treatments for any other reason - even voices telling them to do so, or such - cannot be declared incompetent to make those decisions, and cannot have a treatment guardian appointed to make such decisions against their will.

Competence is a cognitive determination, rendered after a specific, independent evaluation rendered by a psychiatrist or psychologist who has tested for the cognitive abilities pertinent to a specific situation or function. The ultimate determination is a legal opinion rendered by a court, and during this legal process the person being rendered incompetent may defend themselves, enlist attorneys, and ask for their own, or a court-appointed, independent evaluator. As far as I know, some person or agency cannot simply declare someone incompetent until they are able to prove themselves otherwise.

I doubt these VA letters were predicated on such legal processes. I doubt very many vets, except those with brain damage severe enough to render them unable to ever learn again how to safely fire a weapon, could meet the legal requirements I have always practiced under. Mere PTSD, or even suicidal or homicidal tendencies do not imply cognitive disabilities of the sort required for “incompetence” to handle a gun. Evidence, presented in a court, may convince the judge that, due to a mental illness, “immanent and substantial danger to self and others” exists, and that may lead the judge to adjudicate the person “mentally ill,” and THAT may preclude firearm ownership, but that is not the same issue as the legal term “competence” used here.

[May I remind you that the obligatory FR requirement to include professional and personal slurs and vehement loathing overall when replying to posts by a shrink is - as far as I know - still in effect. Please don’t skimp on the venom.]


6 posted on 02/24/2013 1:21:10 AM PST by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

‘deem’ all they want. it holds absolutely no legal authority

someone should file a class action against these people for mass harassment / threats


7 posted on 02/24/2013 1:59:23 AM PST by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I would ignore that letter if I received one. “Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective . . . ,” only applies to a hearing with due process, not your buddy saying “you’re crazy” when you ask the CO’s wife to dance, and not to some petty paperwork pusher sending a politically motivated letter with the same meaning and even less justification.


8 posted on 02/24/2013 3:19:27 AM PST by Pollster1
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Part of the conservative response to Newtown was a push to make it harder for the mentally ill to get hold of guns.

The problem, of course, is that some person, presumably a medical professional, will have to make the diagnosis whether a person is mentally ill. And of course the definition of what exactly constitutes “mentally illness,” much less “dangerous mentally illness” is notoriously slippery.

It is difficult to imagine a scenario under which the Newtown shooter would have been kept away from guns without violating his civil rights.

Unless we want to get into that whole “pre-crime” bit.


9 posted on 02/24/2013 3:21:59 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Hetty_Fauxvert

Well I know that not one member of our Local VFW has recieved one. Thats just over 300 vets.


10 posted on 02/24/2013 3:48:42 AM PST by Dusty Road
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To: Dusty Road

And we’re some crazy old coot’s.


11 posted on 02/24/2013 3:50:55 AM PST by Dusty Road
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To: Sherman Logan

Agree with ^ statements. This is just a slick way of slipping another one under the door that the current administration hopes doesn’t get noticed. They know the vets are old tired, too tired and usually too poor to fight them in the ours over this and they know if it’s not challenged it’s just another incremental shoe-in to get laws passed to keep the guns out of the hands of people with “mental” problems; a definition that is so ambiguous and non-definitive in nature that they can redefine it to suit their needs. I’d guess Tea Party members and those that worship God will be put into the “delusional” category by their athiest standard.

Truly have you ever seen a more despicable, dishonest, deceptive and depraved administration in the history of the U.S. Thankfully I am beginning to see signs that even the liberals / left are beginning to question his judgment. When they get their new Obozocare care bill next year and notice their paycheck has been lightened from higher payroll taxes and that the price of everything has gone up maybe they’ll get that the Prez is more interested hobnobbing with celebrities on golf courses and selling their government out to the highest bid for takeover than them.


12 posted on 02/24/2013 4:01:22 AM PST by jsanders2001
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Everybody's focused on "veterans".

Scenarios 1-4:
1. You're career military proudly going where your government tells you
2. You're National Guard on deployment
3. You're on your 2nd/3rd deployment to the sandbox
4. You're disgruntled military impatiently awaiting your release date

The above cover perhaps 90% of the US military.

You read the following:
http://www.examiner.com/article/report-vets-may-be-deemed-incompetent-without-due-process-cannot-own-firearms

Being the "next veteran", how would you take that?

13 posted on 02/24/2013 4:22:40 AM PST by logi_cal869
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Chuck U Schumer already put them on notice:

“I love our veterans, I vote for them all the time. They defend us,” Schumer said. “If you are a veteran or not and you have been judged to be mentally infirm, you should not have a gun.”

“a veteran OR NOT” says Chuck U


14 posted on 02/24/2013 4:25:24 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This popped up on the net about 4 months ago. I contacted several of my retired buds, one who owns a gun shop, and could not find any that had received a call or letter.

Have anyone of you contacted a vet or are a vet received a call or letter to date? I have sent out another email to about 20 of my contacts who are retired military trying to see if anyone of them have received such a contact. I also asked them to ask all of their contacts the same question.

I do not put it past the FERAL Government to do this. They have violated every article in the Bill of Rights and want to disarm us or piss us off into starting CW2, but I want to here that this is actually happened from one of my buds.


15 posted on 02/24/2013 4:32:54 AM PST by eartick (Been to the line in the sand and liked it)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

If the feds say they are incompetent to handle their own affairs and own firearms then they probably can’t tell right from wrong and will get off when charged with murder. Unintended consequences.


16 posted on 02/24/2013 4:38:32 AM PST by DocRock (All they that TAKE the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 Gun grabbers beware.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This is how the Obama administration will disarm America. With Obamacare the government will have access to everyone’s medical records and anyone with a “mental disorder” or deemed “unstable” will simply have their guns confiscated and be denied the ability to purchase firearms. The government’s criteria for who can have their guns confiscated will become so broad that taking any kind of anti-depressant, being a combat veteran or even telling your doctor about any family problems will be cause you to be deemed mentally unstable.


17 posted on 02/24/2013 5:20:17 AM PST by The Great RJ
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To: dagogo redux

Interesting, thanks!


18 posted on 02/24/2013 5:47:50 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
At everyone of my appointments at the VA I'm asked if I am contemplating hurting myself or others and if I consider my self depressed. I would never consider telling the VA any of these things... abuse of power is a given with any government agency!!!!!
19 posted on 02/24/2013 6:06:49 AM PST by ontap
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I know these letters are pretty standard for vets that have been approved for the Aid and Attendance pension. This is for vets who need assistance with one or more of the daily activities of living. Typically they are elderly and facing some sort of dementia issues. My father is on the program and got this letter. A family member can be appointed as the vet’s fiduciary.


20 posted on 02/24/2013 6:17:32 AM PST by rhetorica
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To: sten
I wonder if there is enough disgust with the Democrat Party to have it banned? It worked in Germany.
21 posted on 02/24/2013 6:35:34 AM PST by ANGGAPO (Layte Gulf Beach Club)
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To: jsanders2001
If you are a Democrat, doesn't that imply that you have a mental problem?
22 posted on 02/24/2013 6:42:51 AM PST by ANGGAPO (Layte Gulf Beach Club)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“Report: Vets may be deemed incompetent without due process, cannot own firearms”... and vets with such illnesses as PTSD will not be able to get law enforcement, fire dept. jobs etc.


23 posted on 02/24/2013 6:51:40 AM PST by kenmcg (scapegoat)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Here’s a site that ran the story http://redflagnews.com/headlines/disarming-americas-heros-veterans-receiving-official-letters-prohibiting-them-from-purchasing-possessing-receiving-or-transporting-a-firearm-or-ammunition. If you look at the PDF file at the bottom of the story, it shows a letter sent to a Vet in Oregon dated 20 Dec 2012. I had to laugh when I saw this because the VA Team manager who signed this has had quite a few of his teams disability rating decisions overturned at the Federal Level. There is another story at Red Flag News that can be found by going to the site home page that talks of a growing support for a class action lawsuit. Hope this helps.


24 posted on 02/24/2013 6:53:53 AM PST by docman57 (Retired but still on Duty)
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To: The Great RJ

I recently spoke to a Marine back from Afganistan.

He said the VA docs were very aggressive in trying to diagnose him with PTSD. They kept trying to find some reason to diagnose him despite his assurances that he did not have nightmares, felt no emotional turmoil, etc.

I know this particular guy very well. He came back totally unfazed and unaffected by his combat experience. In fact, he told me he enjoyed his time hunting talibunnies as any red blooded American warrior would.

Look people, this is not a conspiracy theory, it is an obvious POLICY and strategy of the Maladministration.

YES, they are trying to use PTSD as an excuse to take away Second Amendment rights and to obtain control over the vet’s finances.

I wonder who they will appoint as steward of the poor, disabled vet? Could it possibly be a dim getting fat on his percentage?


25 posted on 02/24/2013 7:14:44 AM PST by darth
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This group of veterans fought at the food court at SF downtown mall, [there are no confirmed account of who threw the first cannoli] in the first known engagement it is noteworthy that the of 1st Hair Dresser Battalion the 69th LGBT division stood proud ignoring that they had been penetrated and took everything thrown at them unflinchingly; ... You Go Boys!!!’


26 posted on 02/24/2013 7:17:17 AM PST by alphadog (2nd Bn. 3rd Marines, Vietnam, class of 68)
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To: Hetty_Fauxvert

Saw it being discussed early this morning on Fox.


27 posted on 02/24/2013 2:32:54 PM PST by Nita Nupress
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