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Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer
ChurchisMessy.com ^ | 8-5-2013 | Rick Henderson

Posted on 08/14/2013 5:18:31 PM PDT by servo1969

I have been preaching for 20 years.  Yesterday I did something that I have never done before in a sermon.  I publicly called out false teachers and named them by name.  I said,

If you listen to Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer, if you take what they teach seriously, it will not be good for you.  It will be detrimental to your long-term growth as a follower of Jesus.

(You can watch the sermon by clicking here)

I used to think that their error was so blatantly obvious that they could just be ignored.  I was wrong.  They are massively growing in popularity in the evangelical world and are seen as credible and helpful.  Before I’m inundated with questioning emails I want to share why I distrust these two and think you should as well.  So, don’t shoot met–at least not yet.

This post will be long, very long.  And it will link to source material.  There is likely more here than you care to ingest in one sitting.  Take your time.  Work through it carefully.  I think you owe it to yourself and as you will see in this blog, we owe it to less fortunate Christians around the world.

When I was a kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play with my toys.  Joel and Joyce are the latter.  They both teach a twisted form of Christianity that teaches obedience, giving and faith as a way to get things from God.  They are both products of what is known as the Prosperity Gospel and The Word of Faith Movement, or the Seed Faith Movement.

DANGERS OF THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL

John Piper does a great job of defining what the Prosperity Gospel is and why it is so sinister.  Please take a few minutes to watch this before moving on the critiques of Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/jLRue4nwJaA

JOYCE MEYER

When I first heard her tell her story I was deeply moved and impressed.  She is an amazing example of overcoming hurts and abuse.  She will forever have my admiration and respect in that regard.  Furthermore, she gives spectacular advice.  If my wife or if one of my daughters went to her in a moment of crisis, I believe they would return with magnificently helpful advice.  If they went to her for teaching, they would return with deadly heresy.

False Doctrine

1.  She teaches that Jesus literally stopped being the Son of God on the Cross:  http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-6-joyce-meyer.mp3

“He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands, at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore. He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin.”   Joyce Meyer

2.  She teaches that Jesus went to Hell and became the first-born again man:  http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-7-joyce-meyer.mp3

“Do you know something? The minute that blood sacrifice was accepted Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again. Now that was real it happened when he was in hell.”

3.  She teaches that Jesus paid for our sins in Hell:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwNfOaxIcOM

“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell”  Joyce Meyer (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make) 

4.  She teaches that words have power and you can release the power of Heaven through your words:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInxKmfgts0

5.  She teaches that you need special revelation from God to understand what she teaches because it is NOT contained in the Bible: http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-2-joyce-meyer.mp3

“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.”  Joyce Meyer (What Happened from the Cross to The Throne? audio)  

http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-4-joyce-meyer.mp3

“Now spirits don’t have bodies, so we can’t see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I’m supposed to say to you.”  Joyce Meyer (Witchcraft & Related Spirits (Part 1) – 2 A-27 Audiotape)

6.  She teaches that she is no longer a sinner:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dmHJdM63hk

Unfortunately I could continue with examples of her utter misuse of scripture, false teaching and blatant heresy.  In America, Christians have an embarrassment of riches.  We can buy more books, download more podcasts and tune into more helpful teachers than anyone else on the planet.  The lies that she teaches are easily lost in the hum of all the great teachers we hear.  But this is not the case in the third world.

In many other countries their resources are far fewer.  Uneducated pastors, who are doing their very best and uninformed Christians have this garbage pumped into their countries through radio waves and TV broadcasts.   Because Joyce Meyer is endorsed here, she is trusted there.  And, she can afford to spread her message with the money she makes from American Christians who buy her books, CDs and who attend her conferences.  Her influence is severely disrupting the church in the third world.  Her teachings are the unfortunate starting point for Christians in the third world and it is birthing even greater heresies.

The devastating reality that we have to come to grips with is that when we support her here, we support the churches she is undoing there.

Financial Concerns

There is nothing wrong with being wealthy.  I love it when Christians are rich.  That should mean more money to fund the mission.  But there is a line to how much money we as leaders should spend on ourselves.  I don’t know where the line is, but it is somewhere before the ministry purchasing million dollar homes for us and our kids.  That line is somewhere before purchasing us a $10 million private jet.  The line is somewhere before the ministry spending $261, 498 for 68 pieces of furniture.  That equates to $3,845.56 per item.  That line is somewhere before spending so egregiously that the U.S. Senate investigates us.  Joyce Meyer lands on the other side of that line.

The following link includes audio from Joyce Meyer.  Around 5:30 she is asked if people will get more money back to them if they give financially to her ministry:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWQsoA7D24

Not only does she teach giving as a way to leverage more money from God, she is reckless with desperate people.  She is not at all concerned if people give to her instead of paying bills.  This is intolerable!

Questionable Example and Lack of Accountability

I challenge you to watch a typical message by Joyce Meyer.  Here are a few of things you will notice:

Her ministry lacks real accountability.  Her family and her close friends are the governing board.  This is an organization that receives almost $100 million dollars annually, and with no substantive accountability.

Conclusion for Joyce Meyer

What I wrote and linked in the first section should have been enough to completely remove her from our sphere of trust.  Her doctrine is horrific.  Her hermeneutics are horrible.  She is a woman who seems to have an unrestrained love for money and applause.  Her finances are questionable at best.  Her example is questionable at best.  Her impact on desperate people here, as well as churches and pastors around the globe is wildly destructive.

I lament with you a sense of loss if she was a teacher you trusted.  I lament that someone who is so wrong has so much influence with so many.  I do not regret, however, pointing to her as a false teacher and as one who should be rejected.

JOEL OSTEEN

Like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen has some really great things to say.  He is encouraging and the man is certainly happy.  This should not be held against him.

The man is confused on theology.  He has much of the same doctrinal misunderstandings as does Joyce Meyer.  They come from the same tradition.  His doctrine is difficult to discern for many because he won’t talk about doctrine.  He won’t talk about theology.  He quickly back pedals when asked hard questions, as seen here in an interview with Larry King:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKF_QgNezBY

In fairness, Joel published a letter of apology after this interview:  http://www.joelosteenblog.com/2005/07/13/joel-osteens-letter-about-the-interview/

While I commend him for his humility and courage to publicly declare that he was wrong, this is just one of too many instances.  He frequently misunderstands important matters of faith and doctrine when being interviewed.  He repeatedly gets the Gospel wrong.  And he does so when talking to millions.

If we take Joel at his word, our only conclusion is that he is either incapable or unwilling to understand and explain how the Gospel intersects with all of life.

We recently hosted Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answerman) at SMCC.   He has some very helpful insights into Joel Osteen’s confused views of faith, doctrine and Scripture:

http://www.equip.org/discernment-and-aberrant-teachings/the-teaching-of-joel-osteen-2/

http://salemnet.vo.llnwd.net/o29/bibleanswerman/hankspeaksout/joel_osteen.mp3

Joel Osteen and Prosperity Gospel

The Prosperity Gospel is much like all other religions in that it uses faith, it uses doing good things to leverage material blessings from God.  Essentially, use God to get things from God.

“God has already done everything He’s going to do. The ball is now in your court. If you want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy, you’re going to have to do more than meditate and believe; you must boldly declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family” Your Best Life Now, p.132

“If you are believing for your child to find God, go help somebody else’s child to develop a relationship with God. If you’re struggling financially, go out and help somebody who has less than you have….If you want to reap financial blessings, you must sow financial seeds in the lives of others….If you want to see healing and restoration come to your life, go out and help somebody else get well” Your Best Life Now, pp. 224, 250–51

This is not the Gospel.  This is a false Gospel.  Joel teaches that we open ourselves to God to get more from God.  He teaches that we use our words to speak into existence a better reality.  This straight from the Word of Faith Movement.  This is not what is taught throughout the New Testament.  Consider what the Apostle Paul wrote.  And remember that he wrote this while in prison.

Philippians 4:10-13 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

CONCLUSION

When I was in seminary, Heather and I were poor.  There were seasons in which I worked 70+ hours a week while taking a full-time Master’s load.  There were times that I had to sleep every other day so that I could get all my work done.  This was an extended period of exhausting financial stress.

During this time, I remember reading something from Joel Osteen.  He and his wife claimed by faith a new house that they wanted.  Joel was unsure, but his wife Victoria was confident.  And she lovingly chastised him for his lack of faith.  Sometime later, they purchased that house.  Still in seminary, my wife and I were walking through our dream neighborhood and that was playing through my mind.  As I walked through the neighborhood, looking at all the homes, I wanted so badly for what Joel is teaching to be true.  I don’t know if you can understand how desperately I wanted it to be true.

I wanted relief and I wanted more.  But I knew that it wasn’t true.  I knew that my exhaustion and desperation made me emotionally vulnerable to this false Gospel.  I’m educated and well read.  I’ve haven’t just read the Bible, I’ve translated large chunks of it from the original Hebrew and Greek.  I think I understand it.  I think I have a relatively significant level of discernment.  But for a moment, I was emotionally vulnerable to this false doctrine.

What about the millions of others who are desperate, searching, hoping and vulnerable without the discernment?  We owe it to them to not tolerate this false gospel any longer.

If you made it to the end of this blog post, congratulations.  This is a thick and heavy subject.  Even though I’ve written much, this only begins to scratch the surface of the repugnant nature of the Prosperity Gospel.


TOPICS: History; Religion; Society; TV/Movies
KEYWORDS: belongsinreligion; joel; joyce; meyer; osteen; sectarianturmoil
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1 posted on 08/14/2013 5:18:31 PM PDT by servo1969
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To: servo1969

I like Joyce Meyer, which is a surprise even to me. I had refused to listen to her for years. I think she has a powerful testimony and just remarkable faith, and I enjoy hearing about her experiences.

She is the only preacher who I have a recording of, or would go to see at an event.

I don’t think she is perfect, and I don’t idolize her, but I do enjoy her lessons from time, to time when I need to fill some time.


2 posted on 08/14/2013 5:23:42 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: onedoug

ping


3 posted on 08/14/2013 5:26:46 PM PDT by windcliff
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To: servo1969

Agreed.


4 posted on 08/14/2013 5:27:22 PM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: servo1969

Applause!!!!!


5 posted on 08/14/2013 5:33:41 PM PDT by alstewartfan ("The atmosphere's too cold in here to attract a butterfly like that." Al Stewart)
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To: servo1969
Still in seminary, my wife and I were walking through our dream neighborhood and that was playing through my mind. As I walked through the neighborhood, looking at all the homes, I wanted so badly for what Joel is teaching to be true. But I knew that it wasn’t true. I knew that my exhaustion and desperation made me emotionally vulnerable to this false Gospel.

Here is Rick Henderson's problem. He didn't have the "faith that could move mountains," so he says that it doesn't exist. That is not Biblical.
6 posted on 08/14/2013 5:34:18 PM PDT by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: servo1969
Theology is a tricky business. I'm not sure anyone gets it exactly right every time. By it's nature, it is more than a human brain can really comprehend.

That being said, if someone teaches truly bad doctrine, then they are hurting people. But if someone is just saying it slightly "off", I'm not sure it's the end of the world.

So many Christian denominations. So many variations in the faith. I suppose one has to make up their own mind as to whether or not Joyce Meyer is all that bad. Personally, I think the charge is heavy-handed.

7 posted on 08/14/2013 5:37:40 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (21st century. I'm not a fan.)
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To: servo1969

I am not familiar with them, except seeing them briefly before changing channels.

Do they teach who the Kenites are?


8 posted on 08/14/2013 5:39:41 PM PDT by Mortrey (Impeach President Soros)
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To: servo1969

Good post.


9 posted on 08/14/2013 5:41:29 PM PDT by gotribe (Vladimir Putin is MY President)
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To: servo1969

I wonder what he thinks of John Hagee.


10 posted on 08/14/2013 5:46:33 PM PDT by TheRhinelander
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To: servo1969

Ah, preacher-rumble.

This will be fun to watch, and absolutely no minds will be changed, and they all lose Jesus points for having logs in their eyes.


11 posted on 08/14/2013 5:48:14 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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To: Truth2012

i turned on joel for good when he had the opportunity to declare that the only way to heaven is thru Jesus Christ but no... he danced around the answer. i think it was on the joy beher show. ( the view lady who just quit).
now as for joyce i didnt see her in this light. i like her message.
i will pay more attention in the future. we will see.


12 posted on 08/14/2013 5:53:38 PM PDT by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: SubMareener

nope. these people teach it’s your fault if you don’t believe hard enough. and the proof is you don’t have that big house that you claimed. you didn’t want it enough.
it’s never joel’s fault or joyce’s fault for false name it and claim it theology.

see this way they can never be blamed for anything. if you aren’t healed it’s your fault. you just didn’t believe enough.


13 posted on 08/14/2013 5:54:00 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: SubMareener

and, at least rick went to seminary and has 4-6 years of formal study as a basis of knowledge of the ot, nt, and ancient languages and the writings of various great fathers of different aspects of the orthodox faith.


14 posted on 08/14/2013 5:57:18 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Truth2012

I went with my daughter and son-in-law to a Joyce Meyer meeting, as she calls it, in Long Beach some 7-8 years ago. I got a strong sense of conservatism from her and husband Dave, who preached a little. But it was clear that the real talent was hers.

And there sure were a lot of lone women about. It seemed that a Christian guy who might be looking for a likeminded soul mate could find her there.

Joel Osteen...smiles all the time and doesn’t understand scripture at all.

Best....


15 posted on 08/14/2013 6:03:10 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Donnafrflorida

I have never like Joel’s message. Also just looking at him makes my discernment bell go off. He and Rick Warren kinda freak me out.


16 posted on 08/14/2013 6:04:02 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: servo1969

I don’t know where this guy is getting this name it and claim it theology with regard to Meyer. I have never, and I mean that word, heard that teaching from her.
She does like her applause, and she obvious likes nice clothing. That said, in all the years I listened to her I do not recall a single time she even preached on faith healing. Not once.


17 posted on 08/14/2013 6:06:59 PM PDT by Wiser now (Socialism does not eliminate poverty, it guarantees it.)
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To: servo1969
Joel teaches that Mormons are Christians.

Every disciple either was martyred or suffered for their faith. They did not live in luxury, but was sent out with only the clothes on their back.

18 posted on 08/14/2013 6:07:07 PM PDT by Linda Frances (Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness)
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To: Vermont Lt

“Ah, preacher-rumble.

This will be fun to watch, and absolutely no minds will be changed, and they all lose Jesus points for having logs in their eyes.”

Spot on, Vermont.


19 posted on 08/14/2013 6:09:55 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: TheRhinelander

> I wonder what he thinks of John Hagee.

Or Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, or Benny Hinn and his hairy sidekick?


20 posted on 08/14/2013 6:13:38 PM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: ClearCase_guy
Theology is a tricky business. I'm not sure anyone gets it exactly right every time. By it's nature, it is more than a human brain can really comprehend.

Not at all; if one follows the Scripture and omits his own "views", he has a perfect body of knowledge for doctrine, reproof, instruction in righteousness, etc. Scripture is never wrong, but man is more wrong than right.

21 posted on 08/14/2013 6:14:53 PM PDT by Theodore R. (The grand pooh-bahs have spoken: "It's Jebbie's turn!")
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To: servo1969
This 4 min video will turn your stomach.

Money!! Money!1 Money!!!!!
22 posted on 08/14/2013 6:16:32 PM PDT by tang-soo (Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks - Read Daniel Chapter 9)
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To: servo1969

I’ve watched Osteen a few times and he always reminds me of the type of guy who constantly plays it safe so no one will be offended at him and put him in danger of losing that fabulous gig.


23 posted on 08/14/2013 6:17:24 PM PDT by Larry381 ("Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.")
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To: Truth2012

you pegged the same two that give me the heebee jeebees.
hagey and meyers i still listen to.
they say believers are given the gift of discernment.
i see joel and rick as false prophets. both hint at wiggle room to get to heaven.


24 posted on 08/14/2013 6:19:24 PM PDT by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: Theodore R.
You make it sound so easy and straightforward.

Tell me -- of the Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Congregationalists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and Copts ... how did they have such a much harder time figuring out correct doctrine? You seem to have it all nailed down pretty firmly ...

25 posted on 08/14/2013 6:20:39 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (21st century. I'm not a fan.)
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To: onedoug

That is a great idea. A good place to meet women. :)

I have only been to one of her events. I am not a big event goer. I don’t buy the books, or CDs or any of that stuff, myself.

I was given a CD of Joyce’s, on leadership, and I did pop in in on a 18 hour drive. I was VERY thankful for the fellowship of that message at that time.

Still nuthin, but nuthin is as good as sitting with my own personal Bible and reading the straight word and letting myself be transformed by the renewal of my mind, right?

:)


26 posted on 08/14/2013 6:22:34 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: Vermont Lt

Souls are at stake - if you don’t have the Gospel right, you don’t have salvation - n’est ce pas?


27 posted on 08/14/2013 6:24:42 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: Secret Agent Man

As Christians, we need to be more concerned with populating Heaven than populating our bank accounts.


28 posted on 08/14/2013 6:26:23 PM PDT by CityCenter (Pleading the 5th is just so 1972.)
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To: jsanders2001

John Hagee is nothing like the ones you mention, who indeed should be avoided at all costs. What’s your beef with Pastor Hagee?


29 posted on 08/14/2013 6:26:50 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: CityCenter

agreed.


30 posted on 08/14/2013 6:30:06 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Donnafrflorida

I was watching this code orange revival last year, which was very entertaining. There were some weird politics that unfolded, and some very charismatic personalities. ( I don’t watch any TV ) anyway- I heard this guy speak and I enjoyed him. He gave me some food for thought, esp when he talked about how Paul evangelized people.

I loved some things that he said, and I disagreed with his idea that people should not identify themselves with people in the Bible. I do think that I am not a sinner saved by grace, but a saint who sins. That is a HUGE difference between the two. Anyway- I might look Matt Chandler up sometime, and try to attend a service with him. I like something about him.

I am really a kinda of an Evangelical- Messianic - Baptist follower, so my theology is off a beaten path. If you watch, I hope you enjoy and doesn’t send off discernment bells.

Matt Chandler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blzft8u6-ME


31 posted on 08/14/2013 6:32:18 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: SubMareener

I don’t know anything about Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer other than that they seem to be on EVERY CHANNEL that isn’t doing an infomercial early in the morning.

That being said, I wonder if either of them either knows or cares what Reverend (I assume) Henderson thinks.


32 posted on 08/14/2013 6:39:45 PM PDT by perez24 (Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap.)
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To: servo1969

totally agree


33 posted on 08/14/2013 6:42:15 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Sioux-san

I’m not sure that anyone is 100% correct in what they teach. If they teach and preach that one must be born again to become a Christian, then they at least get that right. The Bible says that by their fruits you shall know them. I don’t follow any teacher, preacher, evangelist, etc, but search out the Scriptures as Paul instructed to see if those things they preach are true, and then I pray about something that I don’t think is quite right.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit is our teacher and will lead us into all truth. I don’t necessarily categorize Joyce Meyer or Joel Osteen as false teachers, however, that doesn’t mean that they won’t get a few things wrong in their teachings. I also believe that both are sincere in what they are doing, and if we believe they are teaching something that isn’t Biblical, shouldn’t we pray that the Lord will open their eyes to it, rather than condemn them as being false teachers?


34 posted on 08/14/2013 6:51:53 PM PDT by Catsrus
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To: servo1969

The person I have the biggest problem with is Rod Parsley. His broadcasts aren’t sermons - they’re infomercials. According to Parsley, God wants to bless me, but can’t do it until I send in a $ 300.00 “Seed Gift”, and the check clears.


35 posted on 08/14/2013 6:54:18 PM PDT by GreenHornet
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To: servo1969

The only tv preacher whom I have total confidence in their wisdom and mission is Dr. Charles Stanley on In Touch. That’s not to say he never gets anything wrong - none of us are perfect - but I have watched or listened to many a sermon of his over the years and could never point to something he said that’s not backed up by Scripture. With most, it doesn’t take long before I hear some questionable doctrine.

Further, any preacher who spends most of their time talking about themselves or praising man is not to be trusted. Pulpit sermons should be about our relationship with Holy, Almighty God. That’s an inexhaustible topic right there and keeps the focus right where it belongs.


36 posted on 08/14/2013 7:01:47 PM PDT by OrangeHoof (Howdy to all you government agents spying on me.)
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To: servo1969

I think this guy brings up some good points - the main one not literally quoted “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

To me, Joel gives an excuse for not preaching the Gospel, because the lesser good of making people feel better about themselves is more important to him than warning people that a false right-standing with God through ‘feeling good’ will have eternal consequences.

As far as Joyce Meyers - I grew up in the late 70’s/early 80’s with the “Name It/Claim It” crowd pulling away close friends and infiltrating strong biblically doctrinal churches. It got me so filled with righteous indignation and I spent most of my time debating, interceding in prayer or letting friends go the way of a tickled ear. She was one of the main pushers of this. Not until years later did God deal with my self-righteous attitude with her. I saw some things changed in her what I originally perceived as extreme arrogance. I do believe God has touched her in certain ways in her life, but I also know that many can be used by God and still be corrupt vessels (heh - me included).

I have no problem whatsoever in believing 100% of the Bible, old and new testaments, including the Book of Acts where broken men were changed by the power of the Holy Spirit to do mighty works - ALWAYS GIVING GOD THE GLORY. But I still burn with anger towards those who Paul was referring to when he said “...who preach the Gospel, whether for selfish gain or not, the Gospel is still preached”. They deceive many into treating God like whiffle-dust or Santa Claus or a genie.

Sure, I long to have the faith to tell the seas to be still, or like Elijah, call up rain after 3 years of drought, or praying for a little girl and see her raised from the dead (or even sicking a lion on some yutes who call me baldy (2 Kings 2:22-24)). But all of these are for God’s glory. That’s why James so well puts it: “3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.”

I had no idea about what he quotes about Joyce Meyers saying. If truthfully quoted, indeed it is not biblical. Indeed, I am responsible to speak the truth, admonish fellow Christians that the way of the Cross is not Me-first, and pray for those like Joyce and Joel to repent of false doctrines.

Yet we serve the Creator of the Universe with whom ALL things are possible. And I believe that with all my heart!


37 posted on 08/14/2013 7:03:05 PM PDT by time4good
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To: Truth2012

Religion - Should it be a journey or a destination or both or what???? I was raised in the Episocopal church in the 60’s. My confirmation lessons were conducted by the rector, who told us that we should believe in God whether we wanted to or not “just in case there really was a God” - No surprise now with the gay Bishop and lesbian “priestesses” that infiltrated the Episcopal church.

Skipped church throughout college, and then I met a young Jewish man my last year of school. Long story short, I decided to convert to Judaism (this was the 60s) — the Conservative rabbi wouldn’t touch me with a 10’ pole, so had to go the Reform route. Pretty sure that Rabbi didn’t believe in God either, but he was a very nice man and he had me read “The Source” by Michener to get a sense of the Jewish history/struggle.

Several years later, in the mid-1990s I started watching Joyce Meyer on tv (no longer married at that point). I was very impressed because she made me want to be a better person, and she talked a lot about Jesus as her savior. I didn’t know any better, and I was in a deep spiritual abyss. I give her credit for bringing me to Christ, but agree that over the years her success has warped her Gospel message.

Now I watch a very good show called “Wretched” with Todd Friel - his mission is to expose the bad preaching and to give practical lessons on evangelizing as well as current events that affect Christians. He has gone after a lot of the charlatans, but haven’t heard him say anything about Joyce Meyers (may have missed that episode).


38 posted on 08/14/2013 7:19:15 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: servo1969

They are both heretics and I’m glad to see them spoken as such. I know plenty of people who have struggled under the ministry of both these people and they continue to struggle because they can’t quite believe that what they want to hear is not truth. These are black days enough, just in the physical world—with the state our country and world are in-—and we best NOT be listening to those who are struggling with the truth themselves. We need sound doctrine. The spiritual battle is the real struggle we are in and the kingdom is still before us. We are not living in it yet. The health & wealth doctrines are a legalistic system in themselves. You only need to listen to the teachers of it to understand that if you don’t get what they have that the problem is your faith, not their message. That’s partly true because you are putting your faith into a false teaching instead of God’s Word and His Son.


39 posted on 08/14/2013 7:31:46 PM PDT by Shery (in APO Land)
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To: Sioux-san

I am sure what to say about religion, because I have never really had a religion. I have started to explore the traditions and festivals of the Bible. Some might call that a religion. I don’t know.

Faith is a journey and Heaven is a destination.

And I simply haven’t had that sort of reaction to Joyce Meyer. I don’t know what see it claim it, is all about.

I think she is Pentecostal, and many people are confused by their theology and embracing of the Holy Spirit. The speaking in tongues is unique and scares people. I really think that is more of what people are reacting to, personally.

I am simply not offended by Joyce Meyer.


40 posted on 08/14/2013 7:38:44 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: servo1969

I don’t trust Hank Hanegraaff. First he proclaims healing ended sometime ago. The Bible doesn’t say that. And Hanegraaff embraces the flawed belief that the church replaced Israel.

For this person to be influenced by Hanegraaff and his flawed theology has me questioning this entire op-ed.


41 posted on 08/14/2013 7:53:27 PM PDT by RginTN
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To: jsanders2001

I actually like Hagee and I’m a unique kinda Christian. He makes a lot of sense, I don’t think this guy would have an issue with him.


42 posted on 08/14/2013 8:28:17 PM PDT by TheRhinelander
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To: servo1969
I attended a faith and word church for years...I can attest to the self absorbed, name it and claim it gospel and all of it's damages. This one thing I know that is certain...

1 John 2:27:As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

43 posted on 08/14/2013 8:40:48 PM PDT by hope (Whom the Son sets free is free indeed!)
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To: Secret Agent Man
I'll take the anointing of the Holy Spirit over seminary book learning any time. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
44 posted on 08/14/2013 9:00:11 PM PDT by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: time4good

This is all fantasy-land nonsense. There is no god.


45 posted on 08/14/2013 9:26:58 PM PDT by Rocky Mountain High
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To: servo1969

Ricky has his own dogma... which is ok with me.. he may have a few points as well..
Harshing Joyce or Osteen is tacky.. like “he knows” and you don’t..

What does he know?... he has his opinion.. like the apostles...
Who did not agree on everything either..

Heck the first Pope was a married Jew(Peter).. according to most/many roman catholics...
Which is also OK with me.. I like many Jews..

The sheep in the sheep pens need to be sheared.. it’s good for them..
Entertainment needs to be paid for... if you do not like the act.. get out..
Most churches I’ve seen are a business.. don’t like it, stop being a customer..
But most of all STOP BITCHING.. lack of faith is whiney..


46 posted on 08/14/2013 9:29:24 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: Sioux-san

The comment really wasn’t about Hagee who I know little about; it was really about the others mentioned.


47 posted on 08/14/2013 9:30:02 PM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: servo1969

It’s all about one’s personal relationship with Christ anyway.


48 posted on 08/14/2013 9:30:09 PM PDT by 38special (For real, y'all.)
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To: servo1969; All

hmmm - maybe the little green monster is at work - re Meyer.

People who are successful above others always have those who are jealous of what they have acheived -

I really like Meyer -

for example: (I don’t listen that often but I always feel she says something that speaks to me personally - in one, she speaks about the individual talens God gives us - and if we aren’t using them WHY AREN’T YOU! I won’t tell you what talent I have not used now for over 10 years - a talent I know I should be using. So I guess this was the video I was meant to hear tonight - I feel like God was poking me in the forehead and saying: “WELL? When are you ging to get with it?” Funny thing is, I now feel like starting in first thing tomorrow. God always seems to bring the message He want’s us to hear, when we need to hear it - and we never know who or what He’s going to use to deliver the message for Him. The trick is for us to be listening so’s we hear it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IBC1aRjPuM


49 posted on 08/14/2013 10:16:25 PM PDT by maine-iac7 (Christian is as Christian does - by their fruits)
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To: SubMareener

yeah all God’s prophets need 10 million dollar personal jets and multiple mansions to live in.


50 posted on 08/14/2013 10:43:29 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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