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DOD Still Barring 50 Priests from Administering Sacraments, Locks Up Eucharist, Priest Sues
CNS News ^ | 10/15/2013 | Terry Jeffrey

Posted on 10/15/2013 2:24:21 PM PDT by Rusty0604

Father Ray Leonard, who serves as the Catholic chaplain at Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay in Georgia, filed suit Monday against the Department of Defense, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, the Department of the Navy, and Navy Secretary Ray Mabus. DOD is prohibiting Father Leonard and the other Catholic priests from administering the sacraments and providing other services to their congregations even though two weeks ago Congress passed, and President Barack Obama signed, a law that instructed DOD to maintain on the job and keep paying contract employees who were supporting the troops. DOD took this action because Hagel determined--after consulting with Attorney General Eric Holder's Justice Department--that civilian Catholic priests, working under contract as chaplains, did not, among other things, “contribute to the morale” and “well-being” of service personnel.

Father Leonard, who spent a decade serving the Tibetan population in China, likened the administration’s behavior to that of the regime in the People’s Republic. “In China, I was disallowed from performing public religious services due to the lack of religious freedom in China,” Father Leonard said in a statement. "I never imagined that when I returned home to the United States, that I would be forbidden from practicing my religious beliefs as I am called to do, and would be forbidden from helping and serving my faith community.”

(Excerpt) Read more at cnsnews.com ...


TOPICS: Religion
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; barrycades; firstamendment; operationwhipcracker

1 posted on 10/15/2013 2:24:21 PM PDT by Rusty0604
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To: Rusty0604

GO PADRE


2 posted on 10/15/2013 2:27:37 PM PDT by NEMDF
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To: Rusty0604
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Well I guess that it doesn't say the military can't do it.

3 posted on 10/15/2013 2:28:03 PM PDT by Rio (Proud resident of the State of Jefferson)
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To: Rusty0604

If need be, have the bishop provide emergency replacements and do it offship.


4 posted on 10/15/2013 2:28:06 PM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults)
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To: Rusty0604
At Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay, the DOD went so far as to lock up the chapel and sequester the Holy Eucharist inside it.

Yikes. Even the tabernacle is not immune to the barrycade.

5 posted on 10/15/2013 2:28:42 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Everyone get online for Obamacare on 10/1. Overload the system and crash it hard!)
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To: Rusty0604; smvoice; jodyel; Alex Murphy; boatbums; metmom

It sounds as though without the magic wine, bread and the waving of the padre’s arms, none of these Catholics think they have a chance of going to heaven anymore. Perhaps they should read the Bible and notice none of this is necessary...if Jesus draws one to Himself. Time to swim the Tiber the other direction...if they can.


6 posted on 10/15/2013 2:34:41 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

It’s a sign of the times. As a SDA, one of the hallmarks of the end is the United States no longer being a refuge for those of the Christian faith, but an enemy of God.


7 posted on 10/15/2013 2:37:04 PM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults)
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To: Dutchboy88

I am not Catholic either but you seem to miss the point of this news. Is it OK with you that the gov’t is preventing its military from practicing their religion as long as it is not your religion?


8 posted on 10/15/2013 2:39:03 PM PDT by Rusty0604
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To: Dutchboy88
You're right, Dutch ... but this is not about how to get saved ... it's about the prevention of religious worship ... period.

The DOD is in violation of The First Ammendment.

The administration has bypassed the Constitution.

9 posted on 10/15/2013 2:40:13 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: Dutchboy88

First they came for the communists...


10 posted on 10/15/2013 2:48:07 PM PDT by infool7 (The ugly truth is just a big lie.)
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To: Rusty0604; boatbums; smvoice
"Is it OK with you that the gov’t is preventing its military from practicing their religion as long as it is not your religion?"

Of course it is "okay" if they "prevent" this. You see, the problem with the question is that there is no "practicing" real Christianity. Only those who have overlain biblical Christianity with a "religion" need to practice anything. Perhaps they expunged John 4:21ff, "Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers."

11 posted on 10/15/2013 2:55:49 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Rusty0604
" The Kings Bay Chapel remains open to other faiths and is being used for their religious services," says the lawsuit. "The Department of Defense has allowed the Protestant community to continue their services in the chapel during the government shutdown, without threat of penalty."

Well, isn't that nice...

12 posted on 10/15/2013 2:56:45 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: infool7
"First they came for the communists..."

Oh, they are coming for us all right. The question is, will we need our props when they get here?

13 posted on 10/15/2013 2:57:16 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: knarf

ping to 11


14 posted on 10/15/2013 2:57:48 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Rusty0604

We are in SC babysitting for our three grandchildren who attend a catholic school. Tonight our first grader came home and when I checked her homework for the night, one if her assignments was to say three HAIL MARYS for President Obama. I would love to know why.


15 posted on 10/15/2013 2:59:22 PM PDT by Toespi
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To: Toespi

Pray he stops the attacks on Religion? Islam is his exception.


16 posted on 10/15/2013 3:03:03 PM PDT by MaxMax (Pay Attention and you'll be pissed off too! FIRE BOEHNER, NOW!)
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To: Dutchboy88

Always great to see that, when push comes to shove, a certain portion of FReeper “Christians” will take anyone’s side against Catholics.


17 posted on 10/15/2013 3:03:20 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Dutchboy88

yeah sure Du..

“Unless you eat of the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood you will not have life within you.” John 6:53-58

“These words are too hard” John 6:60-66 and DutchBoy88

Lurking’


18 posted on 10/15/2013 3:08:08 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Catholics=John 6:53-58 Everyone else=John 6:60-66)
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To: Dutchboy88

No, it is not okay. The USA does not have a state religion. Is “free exercise thereof” too difficult to understand?


19 posted on 10/15/2013 3:15:47 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Dutchboy88; smvoice; jodyel; Alex Murphy; boatbums; metmom

Yes, by all means, join us. Come rush to defend the gutter-filth being spewed. Come show us all your Christian unity and charity. Come display for us your peaceful, loving “mission”. Stand up and be counted, Jesus lovers. Come join your pal in his trashy, despicable bigotry.


20 posted on 10/15/2013 3:17:03 PM PDT by workerbee (The President of the United States is DOMESTIC ENEMY #1)
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To: Campion
"Always great to see that, when push comes to shove, a certain portion of FReeper “Christians” will take anyone’s side against Catholics."

Now, that is a peculiar claim. Are you speaking for all Catholics and saying Catholics do not see the view represented by my post as the "un-saved", out of fellowship, separated, or lost? Clearly, Catholics are "against" biblical Christians as errant in their doctrines of salvation by grace alone, through faith. This is always objected to and Rome is represented to stand against this simplistic view.

I was simply pointing out that now that the trappings added by Rome are no longer available, this need is coming back to haunt them. Not so with biblical Christianity.

21 posted on 10/15/2013 3:19:30 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

I am curious. Are you one of that species of Christian who insists that the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, and moreover that their true meaning is found by reading them literally, without regard to an interpretive tradition?

I was just wondering because you seem to read “Then Jesus said unto them, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you’,” on the basis of some interpretive tradition (dare I say a tradition of men?) that tells you to not take it literally.


22 posted on 10/15/2013 3:22:32 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: LurkingSince'98

Did you eat His flesh or did you a biscuit with the magic wand waived over it? Did Jesus turn into a door? Did you see Him become a gate? You may wish to invest in a good course on hermeneutics, my FRiend. “Do this in remembrance of Me.” not “Do this and believe that my flesh has become the biscuit.” Reading is your friend.


23 posted on 10/15/2013 3:23:18 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: The_Reader_David

ping to 23


24 posted on 10/15/2013 3:24:18 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Olog-hai
"No, it is not okay. The USA does not have a state religion. Is “free exercise thereof” too difficult to understand?"

Well, then exercise it...just leave off the pomp and circumstance. No one is stopping you from worshiping Jesus...if you can without all the bells & whistles.

25 posted on 10/15/2013 3:25:39 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Rusty0604

Too bad Hagel and Kerry didn’t need priests to take their last confessions in Viet Nam.


26 posted on 10/15/2013 3:29:18 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican (".....Barrack, and the horse Mohammed rode in on.")
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To: Dutchboy88

The original conflict between the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland was not truly a matter of religion — it was a matter of social class.
Put quite briefly, the majority of the population in Ireland, post 1000 A. D., was Catholic. They never underwent the church reform that England did in the 1500s. Thus, by the 1600s, England = Anglican (Protestant), and Ireland = Catholic.
When England began to establish plantations in Ireland and establish themselves as the ruling class, they often did it in a relatively unpleasant and domineering fashion, making themselves unpopular with their new subjects in the manner of America and India.
Hostility arouse between Catholics and Protestants in this way not because the religions themselves bore marked differences, but because these denominations were attached to two very different classes. Intermarriages were frowned upon, not for spiritual reasons, but because the Protestant was marrying below their class.


27 posted on 10/15/2013 3:35:50 PM PDT by Rusty0604
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To: Toespi

I can think of two reasons: 1) the admonition to pray for the leaders of a nation (no matter who/what they are); 2) praying for those who spitefully use us, for their enlightenment.


28 posted on 10/15/2013 3:36:41 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Rusty0604

The put Barrycades around the Body of Christ?

The last people to do that were the Romans.


29 posted on 10/15/2013 3:45:24 PM PDT by Fido969
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To: Rusty0604

He can sue, but military chaplains are often made of extremely strong stuff. Being locked out of a church, no problem. They can conduct services about anywhere they like, in muddy trenches, POW camps, in the middle of a battle, you name it.

Sure, they can sue, but if they want to be remembered and toasted as gentlemen of character by their congregants, they need to rough it. Having to tough it out is also great for their congregants spiritual morale as well.

It reminds everyone involved that this is important.


30 posted on 10/15/2013 3:47:06 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Welfare is the new euphemism for Eugenics.)
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To: Rusty0604

Until CBS and NBC and ABC carries this story instead of just CNS sadly it won’t mean anything.


31 posted on 10/15/2013 3:48:32 PM PDT by jmaroneps37 (Conservatism is truth. Liberalism is lies.)
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To: Dutchboy88
So you do have a hermeneutic tradition you adhere to that tells you to read "Do this in remembrance of me" literally (evidently with the word "only" inserted between "in" and "remembrance", despite no justification for this in the Greek original), but to read as metaphorical, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you," and "Take eat, this is my body," "Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins," and St. Paul's admonition, "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord".

You do realize that, except for gnostics and iconoclastic heretics (two groups that had trouble with the reality of the Incarnation), no Christian of any note prior to Zwingli denied the reality of the Eucharist as Christ's very Body and Blood? Not the Latins (you call them "Catholics", why do you do that? do you credit their claim to be the universal Church?), not us Orthodox, not the monophysites (Copts, Syrian Jacobites and Armenians) not the Nestorians (Assyrians), not the first generations of Lutherans, not Calvin and those of his followers who didn't adopt Zwingli's views. We might quibble over whether the Latins' use of Aristotelian categories to describe the miracle is appropriate (we Orthodox don't like applying Aristotelianism to matters of the Faith, and the Copts and Assyrians aren't wild about it either), we might quarrel with the Latins and Armenians over their use of azymes in place of artos for the Eucharistic bread, but we all agree that Jesus should be taken at His word at face value when He instituted the Eucharist.

You do realize that there is no contradiction between celebrating the Eucharist in remembrance of Christ (the anamnesis is a part of every traditional Eucharistic rite East or West) and when this is done the Holy Spirit making the elements of bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ so we can literally fulfill His command that we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood that we might have Him and the Father abiding in us, and might have life.

To believe otherwise you need to insert a non-existent "only" into the passage you quote against the vast majority of Christian believers, and read large swaths of Scripture non-literally.

32 posted on 10/15/2013 3:48:44 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: Dutchboy88
Do this and believe that my flesh has become the biscuit.” Reading is your friend.

John 6:56: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Luke 22:19: ..."This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

33 posted on 10/15/2013 3:51:44 PM PDT by Fido969
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To: Rusty0604

I’m glad that the priest is fighting it. But truthfully, if the church had any balls they would simply disobey the orders and have mass and sacraments without the permission of the military commanders.

Hold mass outside on the lawns of the chapels for God’s sake. Let’s see some real, genuine civil disobedience here. The legless vets had the stones to tear down the BarryCades and dump them in front of the WH. And the priest and church *sue*?

Screw Obama, screw the base commander, screw the Provost Marshall and screw the MPs. When I was growing up Catholic clergy practically brought down despotic governments with their protests and civil disobedience.


34 posted on 10/15/2013 4:28:50 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: Dutchboy88

WHO KNEW? The Obama administration is denying Catholic Mass because they fear for our immortal souls! Awww, I didn’t know they cared...


35 posted on 10/15/2013 4:44:32 PM PDT by informavoracious (Of course I want people to have healthcare, I just didn't know I was the one who would be paying...)
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To: workerbee

“Come join your pal in his trashy, despicable bigotry.”

Have you considered whether perhaps Dutchboy’s dyke left suddenly and now his finger hurts?


36 posted on 10/15/2013 4:45:18 PM PDT by GladesGuru (Islam Delenda Est - Because of what Islam is and because of what Muslims do.)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

Thanks Rusty0604.
Amendment I -- Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Impeach Now!

Impeach Now!


37 posted on 10/15/2013 5:33:50 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: Dutchboy88

That’s not the point.


38 posted on 10/15/2013 9:21:00 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: SunkenCiv

Obama’s thugs are disgraceful... thanks Ciz for pinging me to this one...


39 posted on 10/16/2013 8:38:20 AM PDT by GOPJ (Brieitbart sent me... Freeper newfreep)
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To: Rusty0604
"The original conflict between the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland was not truly a matter of religion — it was a matter of social class"

???

40 posted on 10/16/2013 1:21:28 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: The_Reader_David
"You do realize that there is no contradiction between celebrating the Eucharist in remembrance of Christ (the anamnesis is a part of every traditional Eucharistic rite East or West) and when this is done the Holy Spirit making the elements of bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ so we can literally fulfill His command that we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood that we might have Him and the Father abiding in us, and might have life."

No, my FRiend, there is a mountain of "difference". And, for a moment consider...nowhere does the text indicate any of the "processes" the RCC has manufactured over the centuries to attempt this "literal" change. Notice, Jesus never said, "By the way, when this comes up after I am gone, you will need a special man (I'll designate him a priest) to have special bread baked and special wine set aside in a chalice. Then, at a moment, he must lift it up and say certain words over it for the actual transubstantiation to occur. Then, he must "administer" it to parishoners who line up and walk across the stage. This is what I mean by 'doing this in remembrance of me'."

Compare that to eating bread and drinking wine and saying, "I remember you Lord Jesus".

And, yes, there were many believers who saw this second understanding as the correct one. Paul and Peter, for example. Nowhere in Scripture do either of them refer to a "transubstantiation" ceremony. Your club made the whole thing up...and we invite you to abandon their chains and find rescue in Jesus, alone...if God permits you (Rom. 9).

41 posted on 10/16/2013 1:32:26 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Olog-hai
"That’s not the point."

What is not the point?

42 posted on 10/16/2013 1:34:13 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

No, Jesus didn’t say all the things you seem to fancy would be necessary to justify the universal practice and understanding of Christians, both East and West, until Zwingli got it into his head that nothing really happens in the Eucharist. But He did tell us that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

So your position is that, at least as regards the Eucharist, somehow Our Lord’s promise concerning the Spirit, remained unfulfilled with all the generations of martrys under Roman and Persian persecution, all the faithful who sought to follow Christ down 15 centuries or so, getting the nature of the Eucharist wrong until the promise of the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth was fulfilled in Zwingli judging that the command “do this in remembrance of me” somehow nullified all the Scriptural texts that point to the reality of Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist. Really?

Or do you have some patristic evidence supporting a proto-Zwinglian position in the Apostolic era? I’ve certainly seen none, and I’ve read all the major writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Had the view even been held by a substantial body of heretics, we’d have texts condemning it, but nothing... The post-communion prayer in the Didache speaks of the Eucharist as spiritual food and drink and connects it to eternal life. St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Holy Apostles and according to his life as we read it in the Orthodox Church met Christ as a child, being in fact the child who was brought to Jesus and sat on His lap when He said “suffer the little children come unto me”, plainly holds the traditional understanding of the Eucharist as the very Body and Blood of Christ, and understands the taxis of the Church with its orders of ministry (read his Letter the Smyrneans).


43 posted on 10/16/2013 4:34:01 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: The_Reader_David
Your argument ignores the plain text of the Scriptures and the stories revealed within. As Paul moved through the world delivering the Gospel, right behind him came the Judaizers (Acts 15 evidence) delivering a message almost identical to the Roman Catholic message. That is, priests are still important, a sacrifice is still necessary (the eucharist), signs (Mosaic Law vs. Rome's sacraments) are still important. Paul (and eventually Peter) fought this error. Read the text your group claims to have delivered. The hocus pocus is not there. What is there is the grace of God delivered to those whom He chooses, by granting them faith(Rom. 9), not those who pretend Rome is the center of anything. And, yes, many argued with Paul that this is not fair because it takes the whole affair out of the hands of man and places it squarely with God (again Rom 9)

There is no unbroken line of "popes" (read any real history not given to Rome's self-justifying propaganda), there is no purgatory, there is no indulgence, there is no mariolatry, there is no genuflecting, or pater-nosters or rosaries. This is all manufactured religion...and the errant folks think they will be heard for their many words.

Over the centuries, there have been a great body of folks slaughtered by Rome (I know, it was really the Spanish government inflicting the damage...at the command of Rome) to enforce compliance. They did not agree, but they did not publish books. Don't point at the Roman & Persian persecutions without noting the purgings completed by your group. And, many of those who claimed to be free from Rome after the Reformation turned and killed Catholics...this too is wrong. But, proves nothing. If numbers and important folks are your guide then we'll be looking for you at a mosque soon.

Continue to rely upon the so-called "fathers" for the self-proving excuses to hold on to the error. The truth is, "What do the Scriptures teach?". And, the Romanist view is not there. Sorry. But, we invite you to leave their chains and find hope in Jesus, alone...if He allows you to come to Him (John 6).

44 posted on 10/17/2013 8:12:15 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Sorry, but among the people “slaughtered by Rome” — if you want to attribute the acts of Latin Christian governments like the Spanish in the wake of the expulsion of the Muslims from Spain to the Latin church — are a lot of *my* co-religionists: the Orthodox Christians who died when the Fourth Crusade forcibly installed a Latin Emperor at Constantinople, the Orthodox who died fighting the Teutonic Knights, or resisting the Unia when the Poles controlled the Ukraine. I can quote the Fathers against Rome: the plain meaning of many canons of the Ecumenical Councils renders absurd the Latin contention of universal ordinary jurisdiction for the Bishop of Rome, as does the plain meaning of the passage in St. Ignatius’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans which first applies the adjective “katholike” to the Church. We Orthodox number among the Fathers, St. Mark of Ephesus who condemned the Latin innovation of purgatory most eloquently in his “Against the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire.”

Stick to the topic: the reality of the Eucharist is not an “invention” of “Rome,” but a nearly universal Christian belief until Zwingli. Those who denied it prior to Zwingli were limited to the gnostic heretics who denied the Incarnation because they held the idea that matter is evil and the iconoclasts who had trouble with the reality of the Incarnation in that they would not admit that it is possible to depict the Incarnate Son and Word of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, depictibility being part of our human nature which He assumed in all things excepting sin alone. You seem to think that only “Rome”, which you want to vilify, believes that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, ignoring us Orthodox (and the Copts and Armenians and Assyrians and Lutherans and Calvinists until the last started following Zwingli).

Plain text of Scripture? Equating works of the Law with the Mysteries of the Church? You’re the one who is stretching the meaning there. And I’d be careful: what you call “hocus pocus” is, according to the teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church the action of the Holy Spirit. We Orthodox fault the Latins’ eucharistic rites since the abandonment of the Gallican rite in favor of the Tridentine for not making this explicit in an epiclesis.

It is your argument that ignores the plain text of the Scriptures: “This is my body,” “Drink ye all of it, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins,” “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”

And most tellingly, you ignore and set at naught the plain meaning of Our Lord’s words: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

How, pray tell, are we to eat His flesh and drink His blood as He tells us to, since He has ascended into Heaven, if the Eucharist is not really His body and blood? According to you, neither of us has any life in us since, according to you neither of us has eaten His flesh nor drunk His blood. Nor can we, in which case this is a very silly discussion and we might as well all become “eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die” pagans.


45 posted on 10/17/2013 8:22:46 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: The_Reader_David

Another battle in obamas war against Catholics and all Christians for that matter


46 posted on 10/17/2013 8:29:44 PM PDT by morphing libertarian
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To: The_Reader_David
"It is your argument that ignores the plain text of the Scriptures: “This is my body,” “Drink ye all of it, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins,” “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”"

Lest you wander away and attempt to dazzle us with your historical polemics, the plain text of Jesus' words do not allow for any transubstantiation. Do you actually believe (please be honest here), that Jesus transubstantiated the bread and wine into His own body and blood? Before the cross? Any reasonable reader can tell He is signaling what is about to happen. The prophetic words of the Lord are to tell the disciples, this is "it". "You must allow my death to be the price for your lack of righteousness."

Notice, Paul does not provide for much discussion in His epistles about taking bread and wine (I Cor.11), but an enormous amount of space explaining grace as a free gift given to those whom God has elect. Read Rom. Gal. Eph. Col. Heb. This fact escapes Orthodox and Romanists alike. They cannot allow God to actually be God, but must place man in the center of their "religiion". There is no such thing in the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31ff). Read the text. God will decide (Rom 9), God will then choose, God will then elect, God will then rescue without fail (John 6).

Your preoccupation with the Lord's Supper is indicative of a very nice religious man. That is, however, not the Gospel. We, "...who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, that you may obey Jesus and be sprinkled with His blood...who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope..." And, Peter goes on to provide the promises granted. Notice, we were chosen in order that we may obey. There is where we (and likely you) have "eaten" His flesh and drunk His blood. Not during a ceremony, but during your rescue...if you are among the elect.

And, your quote is actually from Solomon.

47 posted on 10/18/2013 8:13:12 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

You keep arguing against Latin doctrines. Transubstantiation is an attempt to give a rational Aristotelian explanation for the incomprehensible action of the Holy Spirit. We Orthodox don’t use the word because we don’t think you can stuff God or His actions into Aristotelian categories (actually the inapplicability of all binary distinctions and created categories to God has been one of the touchstones of Orthodox theology since at least the Cappadocian Fathers, and maybe earlier depending on how you date “On the Divine Names” traditionally attributed to St. Dionysius the Areopagite.) We tried John Italus for heresy for trying to explain the Eucharist in Aristotelian terms — though he got his teaching job back when he recanted, unlike what the Latins did to Galileo when they tried him for denying Aristotle’s cosmology and locked him up in straight prison after he recanted.

I suspect further discussion is rather pointless. I read the Scriptures in the hermeneutic tradition of the Orthodox Church which (on this point in agreement with the Latins, Copts, Assyrians, Lutherans and pre-Zwingli Calvinists) takes Our Lord’s words in the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John as one of the parts of Scripture to be taken literally. You read the Scriptures in a hermeneutic tradition that seems to be shaped largely by drawing contradistinctions between your position and that embraced by the Popes of Rome, and reads those passages in a metaphorical or spiritualized sense, then goes to great trouble to stretch the meaning of other parts of Scripture to explain not taking Our Lord’s words in the sixth chapter of John literally. Neither of us will convince the other to abandon their hermeneutics, so further posts are really pointless.

If you regard FR threads as verbal duels, you are welcomed to reply one last time, but I will not answer.

May God bless you and the Holy Spirit indeed lead you into all truth.


48 posted on 10/18/2013 8:39:39 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: The_Reader_David

If you regard FR threads as verbal duels, you are welcome to dismiss the plain text of the Scriptures in favor of your “tradition”. That is a common response to those who need religion.


49 posted on 10/18/2013 8:49:14 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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