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To: Dutchboy88

No, Jesus didn’t say all the things you seem to fancy would be necessary to justify the universal practice and understanding of Christians, both East and West, until Zwingli got it into his head that nothing really happens in the Eucharist. But He did tell us that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

So your position is that, at least as regards the Eucharist, somehow Our Lord’s promise concerning the Spirit, remained unfulfilled with all the generations of martrys under Roman and Persian persecution, all the faithful who sought to follow Christ down 15 centuries or so, getting the nature of the Eucharist wrong until the promise of the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth was fulfilled in Zwingli judging that the command “do this in remembrance of me” somehow nullified all the Scriptural texts that point to the reality of Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist. Really?

Or do you have some patristic evidence supporting a proto-Zwinglian position in the Apostolic era? I’ve certainly seen none, and I’ve read all the major writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Had the view even been held by a substantial body of heretics, we’d have texts condemning it, but nothing... The post-communion prayer in the Didache speaks of the Eucharist as spiritual food and drink and connects it to eternal life. St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Holy Apostles and according to his life as we read it in the Orthodox Church met Christ as a child, being in fact the child who was brought to Jesus and sat on His lap when He said “suffer the little children come unto me”, plainly holds the traditional understanding of the Eucharist as the very Body and Blood of Christ, and understands the taxis of the Church with its orders of ministry (read his Letter the Smyrneans).


43 posted on 10/16/2013 4:34:01 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: The_Reader_David
Your argument ignores the plain text of the Scriptures and the stories revealed within. As Paul moved through the world delivering the Gospel, right behind him came the Judaizers (Acts 15 evidence) delivering a message almost identical to the Roman Catholic message. That is, priests are still important, a sacrifice is still necessary (the eucharist), signs (Mosaic Law vs. Rome's sacraments) are still important. Paul (and eventually Peter) fought this error. Read the text your group claims to have delivered. The hocus pocus is not there. What is there is the grace of God delivered to those whom He chooses, by granting them faith(Rom. 9), not those who pretend Rome is the center of anything. And, yes, many argued with Paul that this is not fair because it takes the whole affair out of the hands of man and places it squarely with God (again Rom 9)

There is no unbroken line of "popes" (read any real history not given to Rome's self-justifying propaganda), there is no purgatory, there is no indulgence, there is no mariolatry, there is no genuflecting, or pater-nosters or rosaries. This is all manufactured religion...and the errant folks think they will be heard for their many words.

Over the centuries, there have been a great body of folks slaughtered by Rome (I know, it was really the Spanish government inflicting the damage...at the command of Rome) to enforce compliance. They did not agree, but they did not publish books. Don't point at the Roman & Persian persecutions without noting the purgings completed by your group. And, many of those who claimed to be free from Rome after the Reformation turned and killed Catholics...this too is wrong. But, proves nothing. If numbers and important folks are your guide then we'll be looking for you at a mosque soon.

Continue to rely upon the so-called "fathers" for the self-proving excuses to hold on to the error. The truth is, "What do the Scriptures teach?". And, the Romanist view is not there. Sorry. But, we invite you to leave their chains and find hope in Jesus, alone...if He allows you to come to Him (John 6).

44 posted on 10/17/2013 8:12:15 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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