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To: The_Reader_David
Your argument ignores the plain text of the Scriptures and the stories revealed within. As Paul moved through the world delivering the Gospel, right behind him came the Judaizers (Acts 15 evidence) delivering a message almost identical to the Roman Catholic message. That is, priests are still important, a sacrifice is still necessary (the eucharist), signs (Mosaic Law vs. Rome's sacraments) are still important. Paul (and eventually Peter) fought this error. Read the text your group claims to have delivered. The hocus pocus is not there. What is there is the grace of God delivered to those whom He chooses, by granting them faith(Rom. 9), not those who pretend Rome is the center of anything. And, yes, many argued with Paul that this is not fair because it takes the whole affair out of the hands of man and places it squarely with God (again Rom 9)

There is no unbroken line of "popes" (read any real history not given to Rome's self-justifying propaganda), there is no purgatory, there is no indulgence, there is no mariolatry, there is no genuflecting, or pater-nosters or rosaries. This is all manufactured religion...and the errant folks think they will be heard for their many words.

Over the centuries, there have been a great body of folks slaughtered by Rome (I know, it was really the Spanish government inflicting the damage...at the command of Rome) to enforce compliance. They did not agree, but they did not publish books. Don't point at the Roman & Persian persecutions without noting the purgings completed by your group. And, many of those who claimed to be free from Rome after the Reformation turned and killed Catholics...this too is wrong. But, proves nothing. If numbers and important folks are your guide then we'll be looking for you at a mosque soon.

Continue to rely upon the so-called "fathers" for the self-proving excuses to hold on to the error. The truth is, "What do the Scriptures teach?". And, the Romanist view is not there. Sorry. But, we invite you to leave their chains and find hope in Jesus, alone...if He allows you to come to Him (John 6).

44 posted on 10/17/2013 8:12:15 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Sorry, but among the people “slaughtered by Rome” — if you want to attribute the acts of Latin Christian governments like the Spanish in the wake of the expulsion of the Muslims from Spain to the Latin church — are a lot of *my* co-religionists: the Orthodox Christians who died when the Fourth Crusade forcibly installed a Latin Emperor at Constantinople, the Orthodox who died fighting the Teutonic Knights, or resisting the Unia when the Poles controlled the Ukraine. I can quote the Fathers against Rome: the plain meaning of many canons of the Ecumenical Councils renders absurd the Latin contention of universal ordinary jurisdiction for the Bishop of Rome, as does the plain meaning of the passage in St. Ignatius’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans which first applies the adjective “katholike” to the Church. We Orthodox number among the Fathers, St. Mark of Ephesus who condemned the Latin innovation of purgatory most eloquently in his “Against the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire.”

Stick to the topic: the reality of the Eucharist is not an “invention” of “Rome,” but a nearly universal Christian belief until Zwingli. Those who denied it prior to Zwingli were limited to the gnostic heretics who denied the Incarnation because they held the idea that matter is evil and the iconoclasts who had trouble with the reality of the Incarnation in that they would not admit that it is possible to depict the Incarnate Son and Word of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, depictibility being part of our human nature which He assumed in all things excepting sin alone. You seem to think that only “Rome”, which you want to vilify, believes that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, ignoring us Orthodox (and the Copts and Armenians and Assyrians and Lutherans and Calvinists until the last started following Zwingli).

Plain text of Scripture? Equating works of the Law with the Mysteries of the Church? You’re the one who is stretching the meaning there. And I’d be careful: what you call “hocus pocus” is, according to the teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church the action of the Holy Spirit. We Orthodox fault the Latins’ eucharistic rites since the abandonment of the Gallican rite in favor of the Tridentine for not making this explicit in an epiclesis.

It is your argument that ignores the plain text of the Scriptures: “This is my body,” “Drink ye all of it, this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins,” “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”

And most tellingly, you ignore and set at naught the plain meaning of Our Lord’s words: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

How, pray tell, are we to eat His flesh and drink His blood as He tells us to, since He has ascended into Heaven, if the Eucharist is not really His body and blood? According to you, neither of us has any life in us since, according to you neither of us has eaten His flesh nor drunk His blood. Nor can we, in which case this is a very silly discussion and we might as well all become “eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die” pagans.


45 posted on 10/17/2013 8:22:46 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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