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Pearl Harbor attack on December 7, 1941: Major victory for Japan
communities.washingtontimes ^ | December 6, 2013 | Dennis Jamison

Posted on 12/08/2013 3:25:13 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper

The sinister surprise attack against the naval base at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese Imperial Military is recognized by historians as one of the most successful sneak attacks in military history.

While many Americans initially thought the Empire of Japan intended to attack the United States mainland – Californians along the coastal areas felt especially vulnerable – the real targets were in Southeast Asia: Hong Kong, Siam, Malaya, Thailand, and the Philippines, as the first of many.

The attack upon the naval base at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, shocked America and the world. While Americans were still reeling, Japanese troops were already en route to their “real targets” specifically marked for attack, destruction, and domination.

Pearl Harbor served as a sucker punch for the Japanese Imperial Military, intended to keep the U.S. out of their business, as they seized absolute control of the small island nations of Southeastern Asia.

Over 2,400 Americans had been killed, and nearly 1,200 military personnel and civilians had been wounded.

(Excerpt) Read more at communities.washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: australia; california; china; godsgravesglyphs; hawaii; hiroshima; hongkong; japan; malaya; nagasaki; pearlharbor; philippines; siam; thailand; worldwareleven; worldwarii; wwii

1 posted on 12/08/2013 3:25:13 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper
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To: Berlin_Freeper
Last surviving member of Enola Gay crew recalls bombing of Hiroshima
“He’s funny and interesting,” said Nati’Lya Fletcher, 13, an eighth-grader at Ridge Road Middle. “Meeting him was an honor.”

a photo taken by a Japanese pilot of the USS West Virginia under attack at Pearl Harbor

Did Japan really plan a surprise attack on the US?
A declaration of war, as it is referred to, was printed on the front page of Japan's newspapers in the evening edition of December 8, but not delivered to the US.

2 posted on 12/08/2013 3:35:32 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Revelation 6:10)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
Campbell Soup apologizes for Pearl Harbor Twitter picture

http://tinyurl.com/pxkgnr5

3 posted on 12/08/2013 3:47:47 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Revelation 6:10)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
"This volume of history should serve as a warning for all in the Free World to beware of allowing too much power to be concentrated in the hands of determined and dangerous narcissists."

As Edmund Burke stated, “The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.”

Amen and amen.

4 posted on 12/08/2013 3:58:30 AM PST by mc5cents (Pray for America)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

I still think that Roosevelt wanted a provocation to draw us into the war. He knew that our trade actions against the Japanese would cause a war. If he didn’t know that, he was a fool.


5 posted on 12/08/2013 3:59:19 AM PST by 3Fingas (Sons and Daughters for Freedom and Rededicaton to the Principles of the U.S. Constitution...)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

God bless all those wounded and killed that day.


6 posted on 12/08/2013 4:00:20 AM PST by 3Fingas (Sons and Daughters for Freedom and Rededicaton to the Principles of the U.S. Constitution...)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

A solid read, along with the linked article on the fixing of blame for Pearl Harbor that went on for many years. Also, as usual, the comments following the article were interesting.


7 posted on 12/08/2013 4:00:48 AM PST by T-Bird45 (It feels like the seventies, and it shouldn't.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Sneak attack, my butt! The codes were broken and FDR knew as much of the attack plan as the Japanese did. He opened Pearl up like a flower for them.


8 posted on 12/08/2013 4:01:58 AM PST by ArtDodger
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To: Berlin_Freeper
Navy wife wrote of Pearl Harbor attack
9 posted on 12/08/2013 4:02:08 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper (Revelation 6:10)
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To: 240B; 75thOVI; Adder; albertp; asgardshill; At the Window; bitt; blu; BradyLS; cajungirl; ...
Thanks Berlin_Freeper. Giid Digest ping, sorry I didn't get to this yesterday.

10 posted on 12/08/2013 4:28:51 AM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

If the Japanese could not be troubled to ensure the prompt delivery of a document that in any case was not a declaration of war (no mention of hostilities) and fell short of being a legal technicality, for all intents and purposes it was intended as a surprise attack.


11 posted on 12/08/2013 4:31:53 AM PST by erlayman
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To: Berlin_Freeper
the real targets were in Southeast Asia: Hong Kong, Siam, Malaya, Thailand, and the Philippines, as the first of many.

A side issue for sure, but Siam and Thailand are the same country.

12 posted on 12/08/2013 5:34:27 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Japanese_declaration_of_war

Japanese declaration of war

See also: Japanese declaration of war on the United States and the British Empire

The attack took place before any formal declaration of war was made by Japan, but this was not Admiral Yamamoto’s intention. He originally stipulated that the attack should not commence until thirty minutes after Japan had informed the United States that peace negotiations were at an end.[58][59] The Japanese tried to uphold the 1907 Hague Convention III – The Opening of Hostilities while still achieving surprise, but the attack began before the notice could be delivered. Tokyo transmitted the 5,000-word notification (commonly called the “14-Part Message”) in two blocks to the Japanese Embassy in Washington, but transcribing the message took too long for the Japanese ambassador to deliver it in time. (In fact, U.S. code breakers had already deciphered and translated most of the message hours before he was scheduled to deliver it.)[60] The final part of the “14 Part Message” is sometimes described as a declaration of war. While it neither declared war nor severed diplomatic relations, it was viewed by a number of senior U.S government and military officials as a very strong indicator that negotiations were likely to be terminated [61] and that war might break out at any moment.[62] A declaration of war was printed on the front page of Japan’s newspapers in the evening edition of December 8,[63] but not delivered to the U.S. government until the day after the attack.

For decades, conventional wisdom held that Japan attacked without any official warning of a break in relations only because of accidents and bumbling that delayed the delivery of a document hinting at war to Washington. In 1999, however, Takeo Iguchi, a professor of law and international relations at International Christian University in Tokyo, discovered documents that pointed to a vigorous debate inside the government over how, and indeed whether, to notify Washington of Japan’s intention to break off negotiations and start a war, including a December 7 entry in the war diary saying, “our deceptive diplomacy is steadily proceeding toward success.” Of this, Iguchi said, “The diary shows that the army and navy did not want to give any proper declaration of war, or indeed prior notice even of the termination of negotiations ... and they clearly prevailed.”[64]


13 posted on 12/08/2013 5:43:48 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Doing the same thing and expecting different results is called software engineering.)
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To: SampleMan

Facts like that are so pre-Internet. It’s the 21st century and nobody edits or fact checks in this era!


14 posted on 12/08/2013 6:03:29 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 3Fingas

FDR had to have something big to hide his administration’s incompetence and his growing poor standing with the citizens.

Whether he had intel about the coming Jap attack or was as stupid as nobama is still hidden from us. Let’s hope that this WhiteyHut does not verbatim follow FDR’s history and start a major war just to save his own skin. But we should not be surprised.


15 posted on 12/08/2013 6:04:19 AM PST by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

If this happened on Dec 7, 2013 you can bet you would have Bill Clinton blaming the United States as he did when he was in europe shortly after 9/11

obama would be supplying weapons to the Japanese.
Same as he is doing with the terrorist today.


16 posted on 12/08/2013 6:06:45 AM PST by minnesota_bound
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To: ArtDodger

You are straying into Truther Territory, there partner. There was no clear, unambiguous signal saying “attack Pearl Harbor”. Navy intelligence had lost track of the ships in the attack force. Their Morse Code operators had been taken off and placed on islands in the South China Sea, and given dummy traffic to send, since US Huff Duff operators would recognize a particular operator by his “fist”. In retrospect, their are indicators that point to an attack, but hindsight is 20/20. If FDR had known about the attack, he could have done a better job of absorbing it, and would have been in a position to inflict great damage on the Japanese early in the War.

I always felt that the Pearl Harbor attack, as serious as it was, was not daring enough. On December 8, 1941 there was more oil in Hawaii than in Japan. Had the Japanese attacked the oil storage facilities, it is likely that they would never have lost Guadalcanal, and some of the subsequent battles, and the war in the Pacific, would have been lengthened by at least a year. Or more. What if the Japanese had invaded the unprotected beaches of Hawaii a few days after Pearl Harbor, supported by aircraft carriers and naval gunfire, possibly taking the Pearl Harbor out of U.S. hands, and possibly even seizing significant oil reserves?


17 posted on 12/08/2013 6:09:02 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Doing the same thing and expecting different results is called software engineering.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
Warning to the faint-hearted: This two-sided disc by Carson Robison on the Bluebird label is highly politically incorrect:
18 posted on 12/08/2013 6:39:58 AM PST by Fiji Hill (Fight on!!)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

The real scandal was in the Philippines where MacArthur let his air force be destroyed on the ground. He sat locked in his office for hours after the Pearl Harbor attack doing nothing and ignoring his air officers who begged to be allowed to attack the Japanese air bases in Formosa (Taiwan). Eventually the Japs attacked the U.S. airfields in the Philippines and destroyed all those airplanes sitting useless on the ground.


19 posted on 12/08/2013 6:50:18 AM PST by Stevenc131
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To: Stevenc131

MacArthur made some really bad decisions in his career. He topped what you referenced with his campaign in North Korea. He first slowed the pursuit of the NKPA by transferring the Marine Corps from the Seoul area to the east coast of North Korea, losing weeks of its use. Relied on inadequate port facilities to supply the USMC by doing so. Ignored the possibility of a million man PLA crossing the Yalu. Topped off by having a mountain range with no lateral roads between his forces.


20 posted on 12/08/2013 7:04:45 AM PST by gusty
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To: X-spurt
... had to have something big to hide his administration’s incompetence and his growing poor standing with the citizens.

Far from being naïve, that statement is enough to send chills down my spine.

Think about it...

Suddenly Syria & Iran seem like nothing more than 'field tests'.

21 posted on 12/08/2013 7:19:29 AM PST by logi_cal869
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To: Berlin_Freeper

What would have happened if the Japanese didn’t attack Pearl Harbor? Would they have taken Australia and then India? How would that have affected Britain? If Britain and her colonies had been defeated, how would that affect the War in Russia? Germany would have been totally focused on Russia and would have had lots of oil.
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was not a success for them. It wasn’t much of a surprise, and it failed to deliver a crippling blow to the US.


22 posted on 12/08/2013 7:36:52 AM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: 3Fingas
He knew that our trade actions against the Japanese would cause a war. If he didn’t know that, he was a fool.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

23 posted on 12/08/2013 7:42:50 AM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

I prefer to think about Midway.


24 posted on 12/08/2013 7:43:39 AM PST by MUDDOG
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To: blueunicorn6
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was not a success for them. It wasn’t much of a surprise, and it failed to deliver a crippling blow to the US.

You are right. Our carriers were not there, which allowed us to hand their heads to them six months later at Midway.
25 posted on 12/08/2013 7:52:26 AM PST by microgood
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
“You are straying into Truther Territory, there partner.”
Politely phrased, Lonesome, and I appreciate it. I know there is no smoking gun that has come to light but the Japanese codes had been broken for quite a while and the US was seeing everything transmitted. Not just in the pacific but all across Europe to the Germans. No doubt, if FDR knew it was coming, he would cover up (destroy) any proof that he had forewarning. My grandad was THERE (reporter) and remembers FDR was so elated he stood up and did a jig. Another myth is that he couldn't walk. He could, but the infirmness of it made him look weak on film so photographing him was taboo.Besides, he wouldn't sacrifice thousands of our sailors to pull his own fat out of the fire, would he? Damn right he would.. Like today's liberals, rotten to the core.
26 posted on 12/08/2013 8:15:30 AM PST by ArtDodger
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To: Berlin_Freeper
Last surviving member of Enola Gay crew recalls bombing of Hiroshima

“He’s funny and interesting,” said Nati’Lya Fletcher, 13, an eighth-grader at Ridge Road Middle. “Meeting him was an honor.”


I was honored to meet Dutch van Kirk at a book signing next to the Enola Gay at NASM-Dulles a number of years ago. General Tibbets and Morris Jeppson were still living and were with him.

Tibbets didn't look well at all, and Jeppson seemed like a nice, decent fellow. But van Kirk was an absolute hoot.

I walked up with a stack of books and he asked how much I planned to get for them on eBay. When I told them they were for friends and family he, very much the straight-man, admonished me in front of everyone to make sure I didn't accidentally give one of the books intended for my girlfriends to my wife.
27 posted on 12/08/2013 8:22:54 AM PST by tanknetter
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
While the Japanese could've affected the US capability to respond to their aggression in the Pacific by 6 months or more by attacking the PH oil reserves and other facilities, intend of just the warships and planes, they were utterly incapable of following up with any kind of invasion. There weren't enough transports in their inventory to take on such an operation, let alone sustain it over 4 thousand miles.

Hypothetically, I've always thought the best course of action for the Japanese would have been, rather than attacking HI, to simply by pass the Philippines on their way to SE asian oil. Although that would have violated a cardinal rule of war making (leaving an enemy in their flank) not only was there was no great enthusiasm among Americans for getting involved in another war, we weren't big fans of the colonialists either. They might have gotten away with it without giving Roosevelt a political opportunity to involve us.

28 posted on 12/08/2013 8:26:19 AM PST by skeeter
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To: Berlin_Freeper
An interesting video of first hand accounts using superimposed images then and now of Pearl Harbor and Ford Island:

Then and Now

29 posted on 12/08/2013 8:31:17 AM PST by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: blueunicorn6
What would have happened if the Japanese didn’t attack Pearl Harbor? Would they have taken Australia and then India? How would that have affected Britain? If Britain and her colonies had been defeated, how would that affect the War in Russia? Germany would have been totally focused on Russia and would have had lots of oil.

The US battle fleet would have steamed gloriously forth from Pearl Harbor under some variation of War Plan Orange to reinforce the Philippines. And would have suffered the same fate as HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales ...

However, the Japanese never intended to, indeed knew they couldn't, conquer Australia and/or India. What they wanted to do was establish hegemony over the Western Pacific (the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere) by driving the colonial powers out.

The plan was to destroy the US fleet, buying enough time to seize and hold the real estate they wanted to (Yamamoto's "I'll run wild for 6 months" comment). After that they presumed that the US, UK, French, Dutch, etc would be willing to negotiate to end the war, leaving Japan as the supreme regional power.

What, with a few exceptions, they did NOT do is launch the attack with any comprehension about the US's attitude towards waging righteous war. Yamamoto was one of those exceptions - he was a realist who did his duty, did it well and fully, but still did it grudgingly.

So the result is going to be largely the same. The only wrinkle might have been that, with the US fleet wiped out on the way to the Philippines Kido Butai might have returned to destroy the naval facilities at Pearl (but they could only bomb, not invade and seize the Hawaiian Islands). Which would have forced the US Navy (both the prewar survivors and all the new ships coming on line) back to the West Coast for about a year. But the overall duration of the Pacific War would probably be about the same because even with a year's delay the Atomic Missions could have been flown from the Marianas as early as Fall 1945.
30 posted on 12/08/2013 8:38:09 AM PST by tanknetter
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Did not the Japs attack Manila the same day? But because of the International Date Line it was considered the next day (Dec 8)?


31 posted on 12/08/2013 8:51:09 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: tanknetter

I think that the big winner at Pearl Harbor was the Soviet Union.


32 posted on 12/08/2013 9:01:24 AM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: blueunicorn6
I think that the big winner at Pearl Harbor was the Soviet Union.

I think the even bigger winner was Mao Tse Tung and the Chinese Communists.

33 posted on 12/08/2013 9:02:17 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

“... There was no clear, unambiguous signal saying “attack Pearl Harbor”. ... indicators that point to an attack, but hindsight is 20/20. If FDR had known about the attack, he could have done a better job of absorbing it, and would have been in a position to inflict great damage on the Japanese early in the War.

... What if the Japanese had invaded the unprotected beaches of Hawaii a few days after Pearl Harbor, supported by aircraft carriers and naval gunfire, possibly taking the Pearl Harbor out of U.S. hands, and possibly even seizing significant oil reserves?”

Cryptanalysis is more difficult than many casual observers can appreciate. The Allied (in reality, Polish/British/US) successes in this field came later in WWII: in 1941, none of the infrastructure nor procedures existed. Anyone who thinks - even for so long as a millisecond - that it was even possible for the US government to discover what Imperial Japan was up to, is committing the most grievous errors imaginable.

Gordon Prange (and his inimitable co-authors, whose names refuse to return to my memory at the moment) has shown conclusively that no actions the US could have taken would have influenced Imperial Japan one way or another: the decision to go to war was taken by the Japanese leadership.

Recent analyses and informed conjecture have conceded that no amount of tactical warning could have saved US forces from the mauling they endured on 7 December 1941, and the days immediately following. There simply were no command and control systems to receive alerts, assess attack strength/objectives, assign defense assets, or direct them in battle.

All speculation about “what might have happened” is of course uncertain, but it’s quite possible that had the USN Pacific Fleet sortied from Pearl Harbor in time to meet the oncoming Imperial Japanese Naval attack fleet in a full-scale open-ocean battle, the results would have been far worse for the Americans. And every vessel lost in that clash could never have been salvaged, sunk as they would have been in deep water.

What truly cooked the American goose that day was lack of air-mindedness on the part of local commanders: the US Navy was preparing to meet a naval attack, and the US Army was preparing to meet a ground attack (an invasion force, as Lonesome in MA suggested). Never the twain did meet.

And - most ruinously - blinkered thinking could not be blamed on personal flaws of local commanders. Both Walter C. Short and Husband E. Kimmel were products of their separate service traditions and corporate culture. Their approach to waging war, while admirably traditional, was outdated decades before. The late Billy Mitchell predicted so in hideous detail in the 1920s, and moreover had the bad manners to prove it.

And no one can guarantee that blunders on such a scale can never descend on us in the future, as we persist in clinging to brainlessness ... the family of Admiral Kimmel persevered in petitioning the Navy Dept to get his name cleared, and USN leadership agreed at last. Family members of William Mitchell have made several attempts to get his court-martial conviction reversed, but in inexplicable contrast, DoD has always turned them away.


34 posted on 12/08/2013 9:43:26 AM PST by schurmann
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To: schurmann

You know, a really good short story (can’t recall what compilation it’s a part of) is called “Billy Mitchell’s Overt Act”, which has him remaining in the Army following his court martial and ending up as the CO of USAAF in the Hawaiian Islands leading up to Pearl Harbor ...


35 posted on 12/08/2013 10:11:44 AM PST by tanknetter
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To: blueunicorn6

i think the japanese would have been wise to gamble we would not declare war if they didn’t attack american territories and just it the british and dutch areas. remember they already had indo china and thailand was pro-japanese. the american people kept saying they didn’t want to fight for colonial europe and, unlike today, the president actually had to get congress to declare war.
as for fdr and churchill knowing about the attack that’s just crap.


36 posted on 12/08/2013 12:30:34 PM PST by bravo whiskey (We should not fear our government. Our government should fear us.)
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To: Stevenc131

MacArthur was over rated. He always seem to be caught flat footed. He thought the Japanese weren’t as good as fighters as we were, and they were tough.
Same as in Korea when he thought the Chinese would never cross to help the NK.....
MacArthur was right about the Russians and loved his country.


37 posted on 12/09/2013 6:32:47 AM PST by Yorlik803 ( Church/Caboose in 2016)
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To: SampleMan

Yet more proof of Roosevelt’s sinister conspiracy. Don’t you see?


38 posted on 12/09/2013 6:46:33 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: ArtDodger
You need to put the attack in context. Europe had been at war since 1939. Japan had Manchuria and invaded the rest of China in 1937. Many expected that Japan would expand the war in the East further. What came as a shock was that they would attack the Pearl Harbor base as a prelude to attacking Southeast Asia. And no, we had not broken a code that would have given enough advance notice to know about Pearl being the target.

Why was FDR happy? He believed the Nazis had to be defeated to save democratic Western Civilization. Until the invasion of Russia in Spring 1941, Britain had been holding on alone, barely. In 1941, the Germans were rolling across Russia and it would not be for another year that we would learn Russia would survive the attack. A Japanese attack on the US would finally create a consensus that the US had to enter the war and allow us to give the British full support.

Roosevelt did not need to trick the Japanese into attacking us. They had already taken the decision to seize SE Asia, which meant attacking the Philippines and the US Asiatic Fleet, Far East Air Force, and Army ground units. They had already decided on war against the US.

39 posted on 12/09/2013 3:34:41 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker

Thanks, Tanker, but I think we are not talking of the same points. I am not saying we shouldn’t have gone to war. I am not saying the Germans and the Nazis didn’t need to be stopped and I am certainly not saying FDR ‘tricked’ the Japanese into attacking us. My point is that circumstantial evidence shows that FDR knew Pearl was going to be hit and he knew when and to what extent, and that he let it happen and augmented the effect by delaying the Japanese diplomat’s presentation of the war declaration. While this did get us riled up like hornets, with Americans RUNNING to the enlistment offices, it killed thousands of sailors at Pearl Harbor that could have at least defended themselves with the advance warning that was withheld.


40 posted on 12/09/2013 5:28:38 PM PST by ArtDodger
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To: ArtDodger
I have read all the "evidence" claimed to prove by "circumstantial evidence" that FDR knew about the Pearl attack and none of it is persuasive.

There was some intelligence that ships had been spotted moving south. Based on what was known at the time I would have guessed the Philippines would be the target.

41 posted on 12/09/2013 5:35:21 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker

The code breakers kept precise notes on all their work. However, the exact time the codes were broke has never been known to the public. All involved kept their mouths shut to their deaths. Maybe they just weren’t talkative people...


42 posted on 12/09/2013 6:07:57 PM PST by ArtDodger
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
Psst ... FYI

From "And I Was There: Pearl Harbor and Midway Breaking the Secrets" by Layton (with Pineau and Costello), circa 1985.

Page 317: "... 'How do you know it's Akagi?' I asked. Joe explained, 'It's the same ham-fisted radio operator who uses his transmitting key as if he is kicking it with his foot'"

[See additional "fist" comments, for example, on page 174 and pages 229-230.]

As the story about IJN "radio deception" has as a major pillar that the Japanese naval radio operators from the Striking Force remained in Home Waters; the above shows that at least one remained on Akagi for the attack, transmitted, and was recognized. So much for that myth.

Also see page 547, note 19, for a bit more from a chapter of CSP-1494-A "Did the Japanese Paint Us a Picture" (The OP-20-G discrediting campaign against Rochefort and his men?)

But then, there is the tale of placing some of the Kido Butai's transmitters on destroyers which then sailed around Home Waters, ... and so on.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

43 posted on 12/12/2013 6:01:07 AM PST by jamaksin
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To: colorado tanker
Just a few of many things:

A) Recall event of 22June1941.

B) Japan needed oil, and after a world-wide embargo became effective (thank you FDR and Churchill at Placentia Bay).

C) Japan always "gamed" their moves. The gaming of their move south (say NEI and oil), Pearl Harbor as a threat to their flank is seen. Hart and his "Asiatic Fleet" was not seen as a major force - largest warship is CA.

D) Japan knows, via the captured Blue Funnel streamer, from the COS papers that Britain is in no position to sustain a naval offensive in the Far East. (See Chapman's The Price of Admirality). The only worry - the Pacific Fleet, now lessened because FDR move major elements to Altantic - that convoying thing. Puzzle - how many fleet oilers remain at Pearl Harbor?

E) The US via FDR, committed to the armed support of British and Dutch terrority - unconstitutionally and not revealed until the Pearl Harbor Hearings

F) There was no treaty to defend Britain or the Dutch - nothing ratified by the US Senate.

G) Consider international law as well as the US being a declared neutral country at the time. And what that meant.

... And so on.

Timing is everything.

44 posted on 12/12/2013 6:41:36 AM PST by jamaksin
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To: jamaksin
I did not know FDR secretly committed to defend the British and Dutch territories. Obviously, we did not have anywhere near the capability to do that.

I wonder if he was underestimating the Japanese as many (foolish) Japanese underestimated us?

45 posted on 12/12/2013 1:05:31 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker
You might consider visiting www.archive.org and searching for Pearl Harbor Attack.

Many of the Congressional Pearl Harbor Hearings reports -multi-volumes - can be found there (note that many are tens of mega-bytes in size, but as these are PDF files they are conveniently searchable).

There is also an index into these volumes from the Greenwood Press - often helpful.

I suggest that you might begin with the Minority Report.

And no, the capacity of the IJN was not underestimated; the amount of damage at Pearl Harbor was by FDR and his War Cabinet, particularly Knox. The IJN ability to sustain losses and yet maintain a fighting spirit was greatly underestimated - a cultural thingy.

46 posted on 12/12/2013 1:48:13 PM PST by jamaksin
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To: jamaksin
And no, the capacity of the IJN was not underestimated; the amount of damage at Pearl Harbor was by FDR and his War Cabinet, particularly Knox. The IJN ability to sustain losses and yet maintain a fighting spirit was greatly underestimated - a cultural thingy.

Same as to the IJA. The brutal fighting to the death at Guadalcanal and Papua New Guinea came as quite a shock. And we just passed the 70th anniversary of Tarawa where the Japanese very nearly did literally fight to the last man.

47 posted on 12/12/2013 3:01:34 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker
Just some addtional pointers, perhaps helpful to you.

A. From Jonathan Daniels (son of former Secretary of Navy Josephus Daniels), an adminstrative assistant to FDR, regarding Pearl Harbor attack:

"The blow was heavier than he (sic FDR) had hoped it would necessarily be ... But the risks paid off; even the loss was worth the price. ..."

The Aspirin Age: 1919-1941, Isabel Leighton (editor), New York, NY, 1949, page 490.

B. On those "lost carriers" - First Air Fleet is placed at:

" ... Five days previously Captain Eddie Layton, Kimmel's radio intelligence officer, had reported he had no information on Japanese Carrier Divisions 1 and 2. They had mysteriously disappeared from Hitokappu Bay a week before and hadn't been sighted since. ..."

From But Not in Shame - The Six Months After Pearl Harbor, John Toland, Ballantine Books (division of Random House), New York, NY, 1961, page 36.

FYI - Hitokappu Wan (has several names) is located approximately at 45 degrees North, 147 degrees East. This positioning is not supportive of any movement south. Via Google Earth - that long straight thing is the runway of a Russia (built in USSR times) interceptor base.

C. A quick scan, Giddy Minds and Foreign Quarrels by Charles Austin Beard, from 1938, Harpers. Or, with the economic mess that the US is in, deflect that with a war ...

48 posted on 12/13/2013 4:41:16 AM PST by jamaksin
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