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DNA shows Irish people have more complex origins than previously thought
scott.net ^ | July 5, 2013 | Marie McKeown

Posted on 01/11/2014 6:13:55 AM PST by NYer

The blood in Irish veins is Celtic, right? Well, not exactly. Although the history many Irish people were taught at school is the history of the Irish as a Celtic race, the truth is much more complicated, and much more interesting than that ...

Research done into the DNA of Irish males has shown that the old Anthropological attempts to define 'Irish' have been misguided. As late as the 1950s researchers were busy collecting data among Irish people such as hair colour and height, in order to categorise them as a 'race' and define them as different to the British. In fact British and Irish people are closely related in their ancestry.

Research into Irish DNA and ancestry has revealed close links with Scotland stretching back to before the Ulster Planation of the early 1600s. But the closest relatives to the Irish in DNA terms are actually from somewhere else entirely!


Medieval map of Ireland, showing Irish tribes. Irish origin myths confirmed by modern scientific evidence



The earliest settlers came to Ireland around 10,000 years ago, in Stone Age times. There are still remnants of their presence scatter across the island. Mountsandel in Coleraine in the North of Ireland is the oldest known site of settlement in Ireland - remains of woven huts, stone tools and food such as berries and hazelnuts were discovered at the site in 1972.

But where did the early Irish come from? For a long time the myth of Irish history has been that the Irish are Celts. Many people still refer to Irish, Scottish and Welsh as Celtic culture - and the assumtion has been that they were Celts who migrated from central Europe around 500BCE. Keltoi was the name given by the Ancient Greeks to a 'barbaric' (in their eyes) people who lived to the north of them in central Europe. While early Irish art shows some similarities of style to central European art of the Keltoi, historians have also recognised many significant differences between the two cultures.

The latest research into Irish DNA has confirmed that the early inhabitants of Ireland were not directly descended from the Keltoi of central Europe. In fact the closest genetic relatives of the Irish in Europe are to be found in the north of Spain in the region known as the Basque Country. These same ancestors are shared to an extent with the people of Britain - especially the Scottish.

DNA testing through the male Y chromosome has shown that Irish males have the highest incidence of the haplogroup 1 gene in Europe. While other parts of Europe have integrated contiuous waves of new settlers from Asia, Ireland's remote geographical position has meant that the Irish gene-pool has been less susceptible to change. The same genes have been passed down from parents to children for thousands of years.

This is mirrored in genetic studies which have compared DNA analysis with Irish surnames. Many surnames in Irish are Gaelic surnames, suggesting that the holder of the surname is a descendant of people who lived in Ireland long before the English conquests of the Middle Ages. Men with Gaelic surnames, showed the highest incidences of Haplogroup 1 (or Rb1) gene. This means that those Irish whose ancestors pre-date English conquest of the island are direct descendants of early stone age settlers who migrated from Spain.


The Kingdom of Dalriada c 500 AD is marked in green. Pictish areas marked yellow. Irish and British DNA : a comparison

Irish origin myths confirmed by modern scientific evidence

One of the oldest texts composed in Ireland is the Leabhar Gabhla, the Book of Invasions. It tells a semi-mythical history of the waves of people who settled in Ireland in earliest time. It says the first settlers to arrive in Ireland were a small dark race called the Fir Bolg, followed by a magical super-race called the Tuatha de Danaan (the people of the goddess Dana).

Most interestingly, the book says that the group which then came to Ireland and fully established itself as rulers of the island were the Milesians - the sons of Mil, the soldier from Spain. Modern DNA research has actually confirmed that the Irish are close genetic relatives of the people of northern Spain.

While it might seem strange that Ireland was populated from Spain rather than Britain or France, it is worth remembering that in ancient times the sea was one of the fastest and easiest ways to travel. When the land was covered in thick forest, coastal settlements were common and people travelled around the seaboard of Europe quite freely.

I live in Northern Ireland and in this small country the differences between the Irish and the British can still seem very important. Blood has been spilt over the question of national identity.

However, the lastest research into both British and Irish DNA suggests that people on the two islands have much genetically in common. Males in both islands have a strong predominance of Haplogroup 1 gene, meaning that most of us in the British Isles are descended from the same Spanish stone age settlers.

The main difference is the degree to which later migrations of people to the islands affected the population's DNA. Parts of Ireland (most notably the western seaboard) have been almost untouched by outside genetic influence since hunter-gatherer times. Men there with traditional Irish surnames have the highest incidence of the Haplogroup 1 gene - over 99%.

At the same time London, for example, has been a mutli-ethnic city for hundreds of years. Furthermore, England has seen more arrivals of new people from Europe - Anglo-Saxons and Normans - than Ireland. Therefore while the earliest English ancestors were very similar in DNA and culture to the tribes of Ireland, later arrivals to England have created more diversity between the two groups.

Irish and Scottish people share very similar DNA. The obvious similarities of culture, pale skin, tendancy to red hair have historically been prescribed to the two people's sharing a common celtic ancestry. Actually it now seems much more likely that the similarity results from the movement of people from the north of Ireland into Scotland in the centuries 400 - 800 AD. At this time the kingdom of Dalriada, based near Ballymoney in County Antrim extended far into Scotland. The Irish invaders brought Gaelic language and culture, and they also brought their genes.

Irish Characteristics and DNA

The MC1R gene has been identified by researchers as the gene responsible for red hair as well as the accompanying fair skin and tendency towards freckles. According to recent research, genes for red hair first appeared in human beings about 40,000 to 50,000 years ago.

These genes were then brought to the British Isles by the original settlers, men and women who would have been relatively tall, with little body fat, athletic, fair-skinned and who would have had red hair. So red-heads may well be descended from the earliest ancestors of the Irish and British.

A spoof (and very funny) exploration into the characteristics of all Irish-blooded males can be read at this link: www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend. Identified genes include IMG or the Irish Mother Gene and the GK (MF) S Gene Kelly-Michael-Flately-Syndrome which explains the inability of the Irish man to move his hips while dancing!



TOPICS: History; Science; Society
KEYWORDS: caledonia; celtic; dalraida; dna; fartyshadesofgreen; genetics; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; hibernia; ireland; irish
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1 posted on 01/11/2014 6:13:55 AM PST by NYer
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping!


2 posted on 01/11/2014 6:14:20 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...

FYI ping for those who are of Irish descent. Enjoy!


3 posted on 01/11/2014 6:15:22 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

Thank you.


4 posted on 01/11/2014 6:27:40 AM PST by wolfpat (Not to know what has been transacted in former times is to be always a child. -- Cicero)
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To: NYer

These scientists are still puzzled by DNA, aren’t they.


5 posted on 01/11/2014 6:27:59 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: NYer

Searching for the Welsh-Hindi link

BBC ^ | Monday, 14 March, 2005, 10:31 GMT | BBC

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1363051/posts

A BBC journalist is urging helpful linguists to come forward to help solve a mystery - why the Hindi (India’s official language, along with English) accent has so much in common with Welsh. Sonia Mathur, a native Hindi speaker, had her interest sparked when she moved from India to work for the BBC in Wales - and found that two accents from countries 5,000 miles apart seemed to have something in common.

It has long been known that the two languages stem from Indo-European, the “mother of all languages” - but the peculiar similarities between the two accents when spoken in English are striking.

Remarkably, no-one has yet done a direct proper comparative study between the two languages to found out why this is so, says Ms Mathur.

“What I’m hoping is that if amateurs like myself - who have indulged in doing a little bit of research here and there - come forward, we can actually do proper research with professional linguists,” she told BBC World Service’s Everywoman programme.

No coincidence

Ms Mathur explained that when she moved to Wales, everyone instantly assumed she was Welsh from her accent.

“I would just answer the phone, and they would say ‘oh hello, which part of Wales are you from?’,” she said.

We tend to pronounce everything - all the consonants, all the vowels

Sonia Mathur “I would explain that I’m not from Wales at all - I’m from India.

“It was just hilarious each time this conversation happened.”

Her interest aroused, Ms Mathur spoke to a number of other people whose first language is Hindi.

One Hindi doctor in north Wales told her that when he answered the phone, people hearing his accent would begin talking to him in Welsh.

“I thought maybe it isn’t a coincidence, and if I dig deeper I might find something more,” Ms Mathur said.

Particular similarities between the accents are the way that both place emphasis on the last part of word, and an elongated way of speaking that pronounces all the letters of a word.

“We tend to pronounce everything - all the consonants, all the vowels,” Ms Mathur said.

“For example, if you were to pronounce ‘predominantly’, it would sound really similar in both because the ‘r’ is rolled, there is an emphasis on the ‘d’, and all the letters that are used to make the word can be heard.

“It’s just fascinating that these things happen between people who come from such varied backgrounds.”

The similarities have sometimes proved particularly tricky for actors - Pete Postlethwaite, playing an Asian criminal in the 1995 film The Usual Suspects, had his accent described by Empire magazine as “Apu from the Simpsons holidaying in Swansea”.

Proto-European language

But not only the two languages’ accents share notable common features - their vocabularies do too.

‘Apu from the Simpsons holidaying in Swansea’ or Pete Postlethwaite? Ms Mathur’s own research on basic words, such as the numbers one to 10, found that many were similar - “seven”, for example, is “saith” in Welsh, “saat” in Hindi.

“These kind of things really struck me,” she said.

“When I reached number nine they were exactly the same - it’s ‘naw’ - and I thought there had to be more to it than sheer coincidence.”

She later spoke to professor Colin Williams of Cardiff University’s School Of Welsh, who specialises in comparative languages.

He suggested that the similarities are because they come from the same mother language - the proto-European language.

“It was basically the mother language to Celtic, Latin, and Sanskrit,” Ms Mathur added.

“So basically that’s where this link originates from.”


6 posted on 01/11/2014 6:30:38 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: NYer

Scottish and English are the main portions of my DNA. Add to the mix German, French and a tad of Cherokee. That is on my mom’s side, not been able to trace down my dad’s side. Doesn’t really matter, unless you want to consider the fact I’m a tightwad who wants value for my $ or that I am hard headed. I am 100% AMERICAN BORN.

As I seem to recall some where around the Saxon time period, Vikings, invaded, raped, killed, etc. Left their imprint on the DNA. Then you had the wars with France under Richard and John and various English kings thereafter, where English/Irish/Scot nobility intermarried for treaty reasons.

Then you have the more common intermingling of English, Wales, Scotland and Ireland that is happening today.

Those are game changers in the area of DNA.


7 posted on 01/11/2014 6:31:03 AM PST by GailA (THOSE WHO DON'T KEEP PROMISES TO THE MILITARY, WON'T KEEP THEM TO U!)
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To: Olog-hai
These scientists are still puzzled by DNA, aren’t they.

Yeah, they should just give up and leave it all a mystery. /s

8 posted on 01/11/2014 6:32:43 AM PST by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: NYer

Super...thanks. I have known about this connection to Spain for some time and always thought that this was why I was drawn to learn the Spanish language. ;-)


9 posted on 01/11/2014 6:36:45 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: NYer
I'm not Irish, but the people who carry me home are...


10 posted on 01/11/2014 6:39:28 AM PST by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: NYer

Then there is the epicanthic fold found on some wonderful red-headed Irish girls that points to still more interesting DNA origins.

“Additionally, European ethnic groups that tend to have epicanthus relatively frequently are Scandinavians, Samis,[7] Poles, Germans, the Irish and British.[”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicanthic_fold


11 posted on 01/11/2014 6:39:35 AM PST by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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To: NYer

Since almost anybody from Europe who could cobble together a watercraft eventually visited or invaded Ireland, I’m not surprised that we are mutts.

That red headed cutie has hair the color mine was as a child. A little browner now, but still red.


12 posted on 01/11/2014 6:40:56 AM PST by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: NYer

https://www.23andme.com/


13 posted on 01/11/2014 6:43:28 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; me = independent conservative)
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To: NYer

We here in the Boston area have been referring to the “black Irish” as far back as I can remember.

I had an Irish friend who looked Hispanic.

.


14 posted on 01/11/2014 6:44:44 AM PST by Mears
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To: NYer
Interesting.

5.56mm

15 posted on 01/11/2014 6:50:51 AM PST by M Kehoe
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To: NYer

They don’t even mention the norse, vikings, danes which invaded England and Ireland. I wonder why.


16 posted on 01/11/2014 6:51:59 AM PST by Dudoight
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To: SumProVita

My Irish wife constantly complains about her unruly hair. I told her she had the WIBGH gene. She, not having learned yet to know when I am getting ready to chide her, asked what is that gene. My comment: Irish Wild Banchee Gene Hair Gene. I ducked, fortunately.


17 posted on 01/11/2014 6:52:40 AM PST by Mouton (The insurrection laws perpetuate what we have for a government now.)
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To: James C. Bennett

How fascinating! Thank you for posting the article to this thread.


18 posted on 01/11/2014 6:58:58 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: headstamp 2

Don’t forget the Sicilians. Indeed, plenty of blondes and red heads from that island.


19 posted on 01/11/2014 7:06:57 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

****As late as the 1950s researchers were busy collecting data among Irish people such as hair colour and height, in order to categorise them as a ‘race’ and define them as different to the British.*****

‘British’ is not a ‘race’ - it is a nationality or descriptive of territory. Should have used - Anglo-Saxon.


20 posted on 01/11/2014 7:08:06 AM PST by sodpoodle (Life is prickly - carry tweezers.)
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To: NYer

All of this has been known for decades from historical sources - without any DNA evidence.


21 posted on 01/11/2014 7:13:20 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: sodpoodle

“British” isn’t necessarily a reference to English. Even the Celts in the British Isles used that term before the English arrived.


22 posted on 01/11/2014 7:22:24 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: NYer
Irish and Scottish people share very similar DNA
I'm of Irish descent ... at least three gg-Grandparents came to America about 1850.
Had my DNA tested a few years ago and discovered my Haplogroup is R-M269, with 91% of my DNA being of Orcadian origin.
I question that 91% is 100% valid, but it does suggests my ancestors once occupied the Orkney Islands of Scotland, which have links to the Vikings.
23 posted on 01/11/2014 7:41:07 AM PST by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: NYer

My dad always claimed we were “Black Irish.” Ancestors he traced all came from West Coast of Ireland. Anecodatally, tall, thin, black hair, fair skin (that tans) blue eyes...our surname begins a “J” and that somehow figured into the equation.


24 posted on 01/11/2014 7:42:05 AM PST by PennsylvaniaMom ( Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...n)
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To: NYer
FYI ping for those who are of Irish descent. Enjoy!

Thank the Basques too.

25 posted on 01/11/2014 7:52:36 AM PST by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
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To: NYer

Is this really news? Hasn’t anyone heard of Galicia?


26 posted on 01/11/2014 7:55:14 AM PST by Romulus
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To: JimRed
That red headed cutie

Looks like he could be a tough little guy when he grows up.

27 posted on 01/11/2014 7:59:45 AM PST by Mike Darancette (Do The Math)
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To: zot

DNA ping, see also post #6


28 posted on 01/11/2014 7:59:55 AM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: James C. Bennett

I remember reading that Scots and Jewish inhabitants of northern Spain share a particular blood disorder. Anyone else remember this report?


29 posted on 01/11/2014 8:01:36 AM PST by abclily
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To: NYer
Thank you!

But this is mostly theoretical.

You can find a much more practical analysis here. ;-)

30 posted on 01/11/2014 8:07:45 AM PST by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it?)
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To: Saoirise

FYI&P.S. ‘Slaite’!


31 posted on 01/11/2014 8:44:39 AM PST by 444Flyer (How long O LORD?)
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To: 444Flyer

I told ya we are a complicated bunch.

And it’s Slainte,


32 posted on 01/11/2014 8:50:25 AM PST by Saoirise (Keep Larry Hutchins Free - USMC)
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To: Mouton

LOL! You may have ducked that comeback....but I suspect that she will engage in some sort of clever retribution (with a twinkling eye and a profound sense of humor...unless she hasn’t been saying her prayers).

;-)


33 posted on 01/11/2014 8:56:06 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: NYer
"magical super-race"


34 posted on 01/11/2014 9:02:33 AM PST by bgill
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To: NYer; SunkenCiv

“The earliest settlers came to Ireland around 10,000 years ago, in Stone Age times...”

The above is the most important statement of the whole article. You’re probably asking yourself, why?

Because the last Ice Age began to end around 15,000 years ago and the sea level was 400 feet lower than today. Ice extended as far south as Scotland and across to Ireland. The weight of that ice caused a ‘bulge’ in the earth’s crust to the south and west.

There was no English Channel filled with sea water - it was dry land and connected to Europe’s wide grazing space through Germany and Poland, fronting the northern ice sheet, and extending across Europe to above the Old Euxine Lake (later to become the New Euxine Sea [modern Black Sea]).

Ice age France had large glaciers in it’s central area and hunters from Spain probably followed game that retreated north up the western side of this ice, towards what is today the English Channel. People were already there, and to avoid territorial disputes, the migrants from Spain stayed far to the west and moved up the western parts of present day Ireland towards land which later would be flooded by the rising sea.

Land west of present day Ireland was later flooded by the rising sea level combined with subsidence, as the ice sheet ‘bulge’ slowly disappeared. The sea flooded into areas formerly grazing land connecting England to the continent, and today the bones of those now extinct creature, the mammoths and wooly rhinos, are brought up by fishermen in the North Sea and English Channel.


35 posted on 01/11/2014 11:31:31 AM PST by SatinDoll (A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN IS BORN IN THE USA OF USA CITIZEN PARENTS)
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To: SunkenCiv

I have already linked in to ‘godsgravesglyphs’. Seemed a good match.


36 posted on 01/11/2014 11:33:20 AM PST by SatinDoll (A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN IS BORN IN THE USA OF USA CITIZEN PARENTS)
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To: NYer
The obvious similarities of culture, pale skin, tendency to red hair...

Hooray for red hair!
37 posted on 01/11/2014 12:02:14 PM PST by redheadtoo
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To: GreyFriar

Thanks for the ping. DNA research is fascinating. The language similarities at Post #6 are also interesting.


38 posted on 01/11/2014 12:36:10 PM PST by zot
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To: Saoirise

Must use Celtic spellcheck next time.lol


39 posted on 01/11/2014 12:58:40 PM PST by 444Flyer (How long O LORD?)
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To: SatinDoll

I was listening to a podcast and the author said the natives of Britain in stone age times would gather hazelnuts by cutting the trees down.


40 posted on 01/11/2014 1:27:00 PM PST by Sawdring
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To: Olog-hai

The early inhabitants were Britons.


41 posted on 01/11/2014 1:28:03 PM PST by sodpoodle (Life is prickly - carry tweezers.)
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To: sodpoodle
The early inhabitants were Britons.

Woman: Who are the Britons?

King Arthur: Well, we all are. We are all Britons. And I am your king.

Woman: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

42 posted on 01/11/2014 1:36:54 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

You’re foolin’ yourself! We’re living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working class . . .


43 posted on 01/11/2014 1:41:03 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: Scoutmaster

Help! Help! I’m being repressed!


44 posted on 01/11/2014 1:42:21 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Mears

Did he look like someone from Latin America or from Spain? The article is theorizing that original Irish ancestors came from Spain, not Latin America.


45 posted on 01/11/2014 1:42:55 PM PST by Sawdring
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To: dfwgator

Bloody peasant.


46 posted on 01/11/2014 1:50:22 PM PST by Scoutmaster (I'd rather be at Philmont)
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To: NYer
The tribe of Dan worked with the Phoenicians to mine tin from the British Isles.

The Milesians are of the red thread of Zerah and settled Spain and Ireland when they had to flee due to the birth controversy. At the Babylonian captivity the tender twig merged with the red thread to continue the line of David's reign on David's throne, aided by Jeremiah and Baruch. Yes, northern Spain and Ireland should be related, as the tribe of Dan and the tribe of Judah are related.

It's nice to see that DNA studies are confirming what bible studiers have known for hundreds of years.

47 posted on 01/11/2014 2:00:45 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: NYer; SunkenCiv; headstamp 2; Jack Hydrazine; Dudoight; redheadtoo
I am a fair skinned redhead (a strawberry blonde with bluish green eyes) and I have redheads on both my maternal and paternal side. My mother was a redhead, her ancestry was either English or Welsh on her father’s side (we aren’t quite sure which but his family name is more commonly Welsh than English) and German on her mother’s side. My father was born in Norway but his father supposedly also had some Scots in is line and perhaps some Basque. My father’s paternal aunt was according to him, a strikingly beautiful, tall, blue eyed redhead. My dad was blonde at birth and as a child but his hair turned dark, nearly black by the time he reached adulthood and working outside in construction, he got very tan and never burned. I on the other hand sunburn very easily as did my mother.

My Norwegian grandmother claimed that our family was descended from Eric the Red, something about our “family crest” and stories passed down on her father’s side, but I take that with a bit of a grain of salt as I bet a lot of Norwegians claim this.

I am interested in getting one of those 23andme DNA kits; I think it would be interesting, perhaps even clarify some of my ancestry.

As far as the British Isles and the Scandinavian influence, both on culture, language and genetics, don’t forget that the Vikings did not just conduct pillaging raids but they also settled large areas of Brittan, i.e. the Daneland. Then they, the Anglo Saxons who were Germanic, were invaded by the Normans…. the Normans being decedents of Norsemen who settled in the north of France, the area known as Normandy.

48 posted on 01/11/2014 2:02:49 PM PST by MD Expat in PA
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To: Sawdring

Not unusual. So did Indians, when harvesting walnuts, in North America.


49 posted on 01/11/2014 3:02:40 PM PST by SatinDoll (A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN IS BORN IN THE USA OF USA CITIZEN PARENTS)
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To: Sawdring

“Did he look like someone from Latin America or from Spain?”


Spain,that’s why I posted “Hispanic”.

.


50 posted on 01/11/2014 3:36:07 PM PST by Mears
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