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The People of the Ukraine, between a rock and a hard place. ~ Vanity
GraceG

Posted on 02/19/2014 2:34:29 PM PST by GraceG

So it seems to me that the people of the Ukraine are being used by either pro-russian factions or pro-Europeon Union factions. But no one is talking about the one faction that doesn't want part in either arena.

Soros and our own state department has dumped a whole bunch of money into NGO (non Government Organisations) directly affecting the foriegn policy of another soverign nation.

No doubt Putin has his fingers in the Ukraine pie, but we aren't noticing it as much becasue the Russian media has been under his thumb after a series of "unfourtunate accidents and suicides". And won't hear much until all the hollow fanfare of Sochi is a distant memory.

So who is looking out for the Ukrainians who want their own country? From all the media reports I have read so far, I have heard the underwhelming sound of crickets chirping?

Is the populace of the Ukraine so used to having a boot on their throat they are now fighting to decide whose foot it will be and not to get ANY boot off of their throats?

It reminds me of the two parties here in the USA, more and mroe each day it seems like both boots belong to the same bosy with one boot labeled Establishment Democrat and the other one labeled Establishment Republican and the body politic is the "Establishment".

Who is fighting for Ukraine for the Ukrainians...


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Government; History; Politics
KEYWORDS: eu; motherrussia; putinsbuttboys; russia; soros; ukraine; ussr

1 posted on 02/19/2014 2:34:29 PM PST by GraceG
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To: GraceG

Nobody is fighting for them, because ‘them’ is very hard to define. Ukraine is as polarized today as the USA was during the Civil War. Language and culture separates them.

Right now, apparently talks are underway, so we can hope for an end to the violence.

What’s more interesting is Venezuela, where people are struggling and dying to get rid of Chavez’s successor.


2 posted on 02/19/2014 2:39:19 PM PST by Viennacon
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To: GraceG

The US shoulda supported the Iranian Green Rev.


3 posted on 02/19/2014 2:43:07 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: GraceG

“So who is looking out for the Ukrainians who want their own country?”
_________________________________________________
Well, Ukraine, since the breakup of the USSR, is an independent country. Obviously, it is too valuable for Putin, and others, to let it be.


4 posted on 02/19/2014 2:43:23 PM PST by AlexW
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To: GraceG; Viennacon

Send the people of Ukraine and Venezuela our Constitution. We’re not using it.


5 posted on 02/19/2014 2:44:03 PM PST by PGalt
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To: Viennacon
"What’s more interesting is Venezuela, where people are struggling and dying to get rid of Chavez’s successor."

Slaves to Cuba.

Soon to be here in the US.

6 posted on 02/19/2014 2:45:05 PM PST by Paladin2
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To: PGalt

Send the people of Ukraine and Venezuela our Constitution. We’re not using it.

NAILED IT!


7 posted on 02/19/2014 2:46:37 PM PST by GraceG
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To: GraceG
This mess is all about Russia's "Monroe Doctrine", unspoken as it is.

The Russians still station their Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol.

Ukraine has been a Russian satellite for hundreds of years.

Yeah, that sucks for them, but nobody is going to do anything about it.

But, are we really sure it DOES suck for them?

The great game is afoot again. In real terms Ukraine with be either a Russian client or a German (EU) client. And Russia is willing to do whatever it takes to ensure they stay a Russian client.

8 posted on 02/19/2014 3:01:36 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Viennacon

>>Language and culture separates them.<<

.
Wish we could be that lucky. Here in the US we have a third dimension that divides us — race.

In the long run, diversity sucks.


9 posted on 02/19/2014 3:14:23 PM PST by 353FMG
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To: 353FMG

Ukrainian moms and pops in the west are sending money, clothing to brave (peaceful first) demonstrators at Maidan. Enough Russian “care”, they want to be free, independent and rather deal with western civilized nations than with Russian KGB commiesaaaars!
80% of Ukraine is uprising!


10 posted on 02/19/2014 3:27:27 PM PST by Leo Carpathian (FReeeeepeesssssed)
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To: GraceG

” and not to get ANY boot off of their throats? “

NBC’s richard engle has arrived on scene same as Egypt, Libya, Syria. It’s a tell.


11 posted on 02/19/2014 3:40:24 PM PST by Selene
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To: Selene; GraceG
I just saw NBC's coverage; Brian Williams and Alan Greenspan's wife were hard at work.

IMHO, it looks just like all the other revolutions we've been seeing in the news.

For a population around 45 million...

there are only those "protestors in the square".

There was no report of millions in the square, scrapping with police, torching tires, etc. All those are the identical tactics of the pattern of recent revolutions.

The news coverage only showed what could be hundreds or certainly thousands. But a lot of the 45 million Ukrainians are evidently watching this from the sidelines.

What would bring these protestors to clamor so vociferously for wanting to do business with the EU ? Perhaps it's not just money ? Is it about morality ? The EU is a godless bunch of heathens and pagans. Is that was Ukraine wants to head towards ?

A good marketing campaign with a healthy dose of community organizing certainly would lure people into getting involved in activism to a more solid, open relationship with the US and the EU. Victoria Nuland, , US Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, of Benghazi Coverup fame, was shown on NBC strolling around encouraging the protestors. Poor Victoria was recently in a bit of a diplomatic embarassment when Russia apparently released an audio of Ms. Nuland uttering "F*** the EU" in a conversation; though her reaction to the release seemed quite calm. Ahh, what a "diplomatic" corps we have.

The "projects" below are listed on the website of the International Renaissance Foundations (the Soros-backed Open Society organization that operates inside Ukraine).

Select an activity to view grants

Activities 2013


Activities 2012


Activities 2011


Activities 2010


Activities 2009


Activities 2008


Activities 2007


Activities 2006


Activities 2005


12 posted on 02/19/2014 4:19:23 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Selene; GraceG
FYI, a synopsis of the International Renaissance Foundation.
13 posted on 02/19/2014 4:22:54 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Mariner
In real terms Ukraine with be either a Russian client or a German (EU) client.

And the reality is that Galicia, Ruthenia, and the Bukovina will go to Germany, and the rest will go to Russia.

Same as it ever was.

14 posted on 02/19/2014 4:26:10 PM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. E)
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To: Jim Noble
"And the reality is that Galicia, Ruthenia, and the Bukovina will go to Germany, and the rest will go to Russia."

When were the regions you mention ever part of Germany, Austro-Hungary...or even reaching back to the Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic Peoples?

If my limited knowledge of history is correct all of Ukraine was either part of the Mongol Empire or Russian Empire, unless we reach back to the time of the Original Roman Empire when the area was mostly Slavic and Celt tribes...not claimed or organized. Even the Goths settled there a while but never made an actual country of it.

15 posted on 02/19/2014 4:51:05 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Leo Carpathian

>>>independent and rather deal with western civilized nations than with Russian KGB commiesaaaars<<<

Isn’t it quite ironic that ethnic Ukrainians has somehow dominated KGB ranks who were led by a Georgian?


16 posted on 02/19/2014 5:07:08 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: GraceG

Uninformed nonsense. Who’s spreading this crap, some Alex Jones?


17 posted on 02/19/2014 5:08:44 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious! We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone!)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Getting 404 file not found, at every link.

What do you have against Ukrainians, anyway?

You are coming across more & more like a Russian, since you keep pushing the Russian Putin Party talking points.

Does it ever occur to you the Ukrainians may have some real & actual beefs with the latest Admin there? The man overthrew the constitution that was just put in place some years previous, about as soon as he got into office.

Soros, soros, soros. It's not that simple.

But are you --THAT simple minded?

18 posted on 02/19/2014 5:20:20 PM PST by BlueDragon
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To: Mariner
Galicia and Ruthenia were Austrian or Hungarian from before 1000 AD until 1918.

All of Western Ukraine was in the Empire.

19 posted on 02/19/2014 5:22:18 PM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. E)
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To: Jim Noble
Yep, just did that check myself and I confirm you are correct. We4stern Ukraine was indeed part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and before that the Lithuanian/Polish Empires.

I'm very happy you prompted me to learn that!

20 posted on 02/19/2014 5:39:50 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: BlueDragon

Why would have have something against Ukrainians if I don’t support the idea of a CIA/State Dept/Soros-lead coup taking over the country ?

Did I have something against Egyptians when I opposed the installation of the Western operative Morsi as their ruler ?

I’m not worried about Putin and Russia “overpowering” the US; if they do things right, they’ll be moving towards peaceful prosperity. If they waste money on too much military spending and if they stand in the way of individual citizens’ prosperity, they will continue to struggle and have problems of their own, and their problems will get worse and worse.

International banking DOES do business with Russia; they did with the USSR. Did you know Ford built a plant in Gorky under Stalin ? During the “heady days” of the “Cold War”, when the establishment was trying to make Americans wet themselves with fear, a high-level Soviet diplomat would have dinner at W. Averell Harriman’s house ? Don’t that sound a little funky ? Why was one of our biggest capitalist / senior government confidant entertaining “the enemy” ? Perhaps the big red scare was more about government spending gone wild and using the US to accomplish the aims of international financial elites.

If the US government today (which I’m more concerned with, since I’m an American and my ancestors have been here since the 1600’s) CONTINUES to more and more stand in the way of individual citizens’ prosperity - we will be heading the way of socialism like the UK and Europe. That is far and away THE most significant NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE for America. America is moving towards a totalitarian police state with the NSA spying - and it still does not stop. Billions are spent on spying on Americans.

We have beefs with OUR administration here in America, with that Obama dude, the current occupant.

But Soros/CIA/State Dept does not try to “topple” the Obama administration. Hmmm... I wonder why.

Because the financial elites run America. The elites want to keep consolidating, combining banking systems, combining nations into groups of nations, “freeing up” international trade so THEY can profit, while they encourage countries like China to buy food and raw materials from the US, which has the effect of bidding up market prices of commodities, and export the work to them and third-world countries - which they know is slowly impoverishing Americans.

I posted above Soros activities in Ukraine dating from 2005 - 2013. THAT is from THEIR website. That’s what they are publicly acknowledging.

Please read the titles carefully - they are basically all about pushing Ukraine into the EU.

Here’s an informative video of Antony Sutton:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVWXmZB1wc


21 posted on 02/19/2014 6:05:02 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Jim Noble
It now appears that a partition of the country along the Dnieper is STILL the best solution, one employed for over a thousand years.

However, I don't think Vlad would go for it.

Certainly most Ukrainians would since that is their natural division ethnically, politically and religiously.

Vlad will protect his interests in the south and the east, militarily if necessary. The West will not.

The Ukrainians will have to stand alone, sadly. Their soil holds seas of their blood over this ongoing east-west battle.

22 posted on 02/19/2014 6:11:17 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: BlueDragon

It just so happens that this time the Putin talking points are correct.

Why ? How did this happen ? Doesn’t Putin always lie ?

Well, when you have blatantly open operations going on, people tend to find out.

If there actually IS Western involvement, and much of it is overt, not covert, it’s not surprise that Putin then points this out.

Just like the Syrian government keeps pointing out.

And there is plenty of public information available that points to funding in that one coming through Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

And it is well known that these are two “mini-me” satellite regimes of the US.

See, in the old days, if the US did a revolution in a Banana Republic, they at least went to great lengths to hide it - and even make sure all the government school textbooks taught the children the cover story.

Now, as evidenced by Victoria Nuland’s remark, and the entire Obama administration... nobody in government cares really much about appearances.

What difference does it make, you know ?


23 posted on 02/19/2014 6:12:07 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: GraceG

Seems to me the Ukrainians are doing just fine. It will get bloodier before it is over. The “people” appear to be well organized and effective. The attack on the APC scared the crap out of the cops because of it’s speed and effectiveness. The cops will hit harder tomorrow and will get sent packing again. Be interesting to see which side the military comes down on. There are some very determined people in the crowd and many are seriously pissed off.

De oppresso liber


24 posted on 02/19/2014 6:20:56 PM PST by mad_as_he$$
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To: Mariner

the question is not if it sucks for the ukrainians, but if it sucks for us.

we aren’t in a position to change anything there nor is it our buisness to.


25 posted on 02/19/2014 6:21:42 PM PST by RitchieAprile
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To: BlueDragon

Just think, when America used to do assassinations, it was actually kept a secret.

Today, video is released to the public, and it’s heralded by the government. We’re told it was out of concerns for our “national security”. The guy had to be eliminated. He posed an existential threat to the United States of America.


26 posted on 02/19/2014 6:23:16 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: GraceG

There’s a couple things here. Put it in the context of the Georgia war that captured South Ossetia and Ahbkasia.

As of now Putin isn’t sure who will control the spigots of gas and oil that flow through Ukraine. In Georgia Putin instantly made entire regions Russian citizens by dumping passports from helicopters (literally) in Ahbkazia and South Osetia. (I was stuck in Tblisis). Putin KNEW Shakasvilli could do nothing to repel a Russian invasion so had no problem invading the region to control the spigots based out of Georgia on the black sea (Sohkumi). If Bush had showed any interference Georgia would have never been invaded so I’m guessing there were some back door dealings where Bush agreed to do nothing for poor Georgia.

Ukraine is different. It’s a 50 50 country. There is no love for either the EU or Russia. Putin doesn’t know who to help right now. One thing Putin is certain of is Obama is a complete coward and will support no one. If Obama even farts on one side Putin will pull out the Syria card and remind Obama of his “red line” statement. Obama is Putin’s bitch. In other words Obama will site in the corner while the adults take over the situations, for bad or worse.

My prediction is the Ukraine will be ignored by the EU and the western powers and will align, brutally, with Russia. The world knows Obama doesn’t have the stomach to stand up to Putin and nothing is more important to Obama than Obama. Western Europe doesn’t have the resources to counter Russia. If ANYONE would aid the uprising in Ukraine it would be former soviet bloc countries like Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, etc. but they won’t act without the US or the UK. Basically Ukraine, sadly, is screwed with this boy child president. The world knows what a coward Obama is and Putin plans to take full advantage of the situation. Wait until the Olympics end and the worlds’ cameras are off Russia. You will see true brutality.

PLEASE GOD, LET ME BE WRONG!!!


27 posted on 02/19/2014 6:48:51 PM PST by Organic Panic
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To: PieterCasparzen

But all broken links, here.

If one wishes to see what was in actuality going on, one has to go digging. So no thanks.

The list as it is, doesn't look all that bad. Standards for journalists --- are you against such things?

In another post you go on about America assassinating someone (but don't say who) but seem to forget the 50+ journalists who investigated Russia's own down-to-the-bone GUILT of just about every charge you try to hurl at Western interests, trying to shift all blame on "Soros".

I ask again --- are you really THAT simple (minded)?

Or are the Russians paying you to steer public opinion on open forums, in the West.

You are mostly all heat -- and little to no light.

This kind of self-justification BS;

shows you are either wack-a-doodle, a simpleton, or in some manner in the thrall of Russian syndicate.

28 posted on 02/19/2014 6:55:07 PM PST by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon
50+ journalist killed by Russian syndicate/business interests, I meant to say...

But the US shot who? -- Osama Bin Laden?

If you really do have something significant to say, clam down, bring clear evidence --- stop this mindless hurling of accusation, and all the ceaseless innuendo.

29 posted on 02/19/2014 6:59:44 PM PST by BlueDragon
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To: RitchieAprile
" nor is it our buisness to."

I agree without reservation.

Unfortunately our Boy President announced today there would be "consequences" if things don't turn out his way.

30 posted on 02/19/2014 7:17:18 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: PieterCasparzen

So you are saying that this is "evil"? --->What is the EaP?

The Eastern Partnership (EaP) is a European Union initiative directed at six countries of Eastern Europe and the South Caucasus: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. The EaP was launched by 27 EU member states and the six partner countries at a summit in Prague on 7 May 2009. The initiative aims at tightening the relationship between the EU and the Eastern partners by deepening their political co-operation and economic integration. The EaP neither promises nor precludes the prospect of EU membership to the partner states. It offers deeper integration with the EU structures by encouraging and supporting them in their political, institutional and economic reforms based on EU standards, as well as facilitating trade and increasing mobility between the EU and the partner states.

It's Eurocentric & bureaucratic enough, but some Soros-spawn plan to take over the world?

No, what is sought for are shared legal standards under which people can do business, from one nation to another.

That it could be exploited by corporations looking after their own financial interests, is par for the course.

Would we prefer laws to be made, then taken down, then changed willy-nilly to give over financial control of in-country investment, in the name of keeping multi-nationals who are not as much nationalistic as profit oriented from doing business?

No, Putin's talking points are only "correct" from perspective of maintaining Russian dominance over Ukraine and other nations on their borders.

The boogy-man propaganda you've been selling here, is in need of some adjustment.

The Russian oligarchs have little standing to being pointing accusatory fingers at their potential competition. But that's the Russian way, just keep spreading and smearing the tar, while cloaking themselves in "righteousness".

I complain due to the double-standards being applied. THe Russia business mobsters are not the friggin answer.

31 posted on 02/19/2014 7:34:38 PM PST by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon

The US government unfortunately is not blameless when it comes to assassination, or these sorts of targeted killings.

Of course, this is NOT to say that the governments of other nations are blameless, as their body counts are, in some cases, well into the millions.

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_program

“The program was in operation between 1965 and 1972, and similar efforts existed both before and after that period. By 1972, Phoenix operatives had “neutralized” 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom between 26,000 and 41,000 were killed.”

From the Council on Foreign Relations website:

http://www.cfr.org/counterterrorism/targeted-killings/p9627

Excerpt:

“Targeted attacks launched from unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones, have ballooned under the Obama administration. A study undertaken by the New American Foundation reports that in his first two years of office, President Obama authorized nearly four times the number of strikes in Pakistan as President Bush did in his eight years. The report, which relies solely on media accounts of attacks, claims that some 291 strikes have been launched since 2009, killing somewhere between 1,299 and 2,264 militants, as of January 2013. Alternate reports also document the escalation in drone strikes in recent years, but the accounting of militant and civilian deaths can vary widely depending on the source.”


32 posted on 02/19/2014 7:59:47 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: GraceG
The last casualty count I heard was 28 dead, over 800 wounded.

Anyone have an update?

33 posted on 02/19/2014 8:01:29 PM PST by Gabrial (The nightmare will continue as long as the nightmare is in the Whitehouse.)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Neutalizing North Vietnamese. There was a war on...

Drone attacks, ok? But against whom? The very same sort (Islamists) who the Russians have gone to war with, even as they also need cosy up to some of them.

Does Chechnya ring any bells for you?

Meanwhile, among about a third of the Iranians, the words "Death to America" are like pure poetry.

Who's side are you on? Pick one.

34 posted on 02/19/2014 8:07:38 PM PST by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon
But all broken links, here.

If one wishes to see what was in actuality going on, one has to go digging. So no thanks.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Renaissance_Foundation

The list as it is, doesn't look all that bad. Standards for journalists --- are you against such things?

2013 - just for an example:

Civil society impact on EU-Ukraine relations [20 grants]
Freedom of movement between Ukraine and the EU [10 grants]
Integration among civil societies of Ukraine and the EU [5 grants]
Developing professional journalism on European integration in Ukraine [10 grants]

45 out of 51 grants are given to projects having to do with moving towards the EU.

It's not honest to say 2013 for the IRF was about "standards for journalists"; it seems obvious that the IRF is about joining the EU.

Or are the Russians paying you to steer public opinion on open forums, in the West.

No, I don't work for the Russians or any other government.

This kind of self-justification BS;

Why would have have something against Ukrainians if I don’t support the idea of a CIA/State Dept/Soros-lead coup taking over the country ?

shows you are either wack-a-doodle, a simpleton, or in some manner in the thrall of Russian syndicate.


I'd hardly call it BS. I would not like it if foreigners came to America and incited a rebellion that wound up changing our government. How can I support the US government - or some wealthy elites that have residences in America - doing the same thing elsewhere ?

In time of declared War, one could make the argument for taking actions that are still ethical but perhaps might appear drastic. War must be fought righteously. Ukraine has not threatened any other nations at all; this is purely a power struggle.

Why can't governments use some sense; if you want to entice a nation into your economic circle - simply do it through superb deal making. Simply lay offers on the table. Make great deals with neighboring countries, get the competition going.
35 posted on 02/19/2014 8:45:42 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: BlueDragon

Negotiations and trade agreements ok.

Inciting overthrow of government not ok.

Russia not the answer. True.

Did you read where I compare the Euro group and the Russian group to the Banannos and the Gambinos ? Those are crime families I’m comparing them to.

I make the “radical” statement to make some fun, but make the point:

Russian puppet is not right, Western/Euro/US puppet is not right.

How many times must I repeat this.

Ukraine should control Ukraine.

It’s called national sovereignty.

Every country wants national sovereignty.

If they internally want to have a revolution - that’s up to them. But should I go over there and get a revolution started ? Absolutely not. I’m not a Ukrainian, I have no right to.

I would think that there are still some influential people within the Ukrainian government that are partial to Russia and want to move closer to them.

It will therefore take time for Ukraine, newly independent little country, to be left more and more to self-determine, as older folks start retiring and younger folks start participating more.

Maybe, just maybe, Ukraine could trade with anyone and everyone Ukraine wants to.

It will probably take the Ukrainian people and the governments they elect some time to decide, even if they’re left alone to decide.


36 posted on 02/19/2014 9:07:34 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

What "rebellion" are you talking about? The protests against the Moscow-backed Ukrainian president who swept away the reforms of the "Orange Revolution", ceding power over to -- himself?

Then by default, you seem to be saying Ukraine was never (in recent past) an independent nation, but instead, just a Russian vassal/hedge/border State which must return to subordination of the glorious Moscow.

The examples you list of grants being supplied in interests of furthering those stated causes are not crimes, but were part of the overall European effort, to assist Ukraine in bridging [perceived] gaps between themselves and the Ukraine, which was being negotiated on by the Ukrainian government both before AND after Moscow's candidate won high office.

It's not a CIA/Soros backed "coup", (though those entities are not aligned with Russian interests in the matter). It was above board and legitimate, even IF Soros was putting some of his own wealth towards those ends.

You make it sound like the CIA/Soros combo (if there is such a thing) initiated the entire affair.

That's what the EU, in all it bureaucratic windbagginess towering mounds of paperwork building, was trying to do. bless their little 'ol hearts...

Russia has been doing everything it can to prevent that from happening. It's like -- pointing at all the EU paperwork and threatening -- don't you dare --- while also manipulating the political scene in Ukraine as much as they can, at the same time. Meanwhile, the EU itself has some cracking going on, around the edges of their own foundations...

What we are seeing is the blowback from the Ukrainian people to the cynical Russian intrusions -- that demands that only their(Russian) demands be met -- or else.

You know what? Previously, in regards to the Russians murdering journalists who dug a bit too deep into the background info of Russian business & political climate -=-- to the North Vietnamese being targeted by U.S. Special Ops, when the United States was (rightly or wrongly) at war with those peoples.

Are you really that far off center?

37 posted on 02/19/2014 9:25:18 PM PST by BlueDragon (there's no place like home)
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To: PieterCasparzen

NOW you tell me!?!

38 posted on 02/19/2014 9:26:56 PM PST by BlueDragon (there's no place like home)
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To: BlueDragon
Neutalizing North Vietnamese. There was a war on...

Read the story in order to understand it better. War does not justify murder. Do you know what a non-combatant is ? Soldiers should not be killing non-combatants to put down an insurgency without verifying that each non-combatant is actually a part of said insurgency.

Drone attacks, ok? But against whom?

Once again, read the story. Your own question is the key - against whom ? It's a case of very questionable justification.

Does Chechnya ring any bells for you?

Chechnya does not provide justification for US drone attacks.

From CFR...

Philip Alston, the former UN special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary executions, condemns the U.S. claims of self-defense as overly expansive, stating that "if other states were to claim the broad-based authority that the United States does, to kill people anywhere, anytime, the result would be chaos." Waxman says that while the strike on bin Laden would normally be a violation of state sovereignty, the U.S. government "is well within its rights" to use force on foreign soil without consent if there is an overriding necessity of self-defense.

CFR national security expert John B. Bellinger says the law is in need of a significant update. "The 2001 AUMF is more than ten years old now and getting a little long in the tooth--still tied to the use of force against the people who planned, committed, and or aided those involved in 9/11," he says. "The farther we get from [targeting] al-Qaeda [e.g., al-Shabaab in Somalia], the harder it is to squeeze [those operations] into the AUMF."

Meanwhile, among about a third of the Iranians, the words "Death to America" are like pure poetry.

That's not a valid cause for initiating war.

Who's side are you on? Pick one.

My loyalties are to God, country and family, in that order.

I've simply stopped listening to war mongers. I was a neocon, then I found out that I was being played for a fool.

I wholeheartedly suggest this guy's writings, there are also youtube videos of interviews with him that are very interesting. In order to really appreciate them, you have to read up on the Hoover Institution's roots. (It's so amazing that so many people just ridicule this info, dismiss it, and go on rah ! rah ! for their politicians).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_C._Sutton

There is a lot more info out there from various sources. Most of it is unverfiable or quackery. But here and there are specific facts that force the honest reader to some very uncomfortable conclusions.

For instance, I had come across a statement that FDR's grandfather was a drug lord. Well, let's looky for some corroboration, but not from some ultra-right-wing website, or they'll say it's a wacky conspiracy theory. Let's look ere:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/28/opinion/the-opium-war-s-secret-history.html

From NYTimes:

"Along with the slave trade, the traffic in opium was the dirty underside of an evolving global trading economy. In America as in Europe, pretty much everything was deemed fair in the pursuit of profits. Such was the outlook at Russell & Company, a Boston concern whose clipper ships made it the leader in the lucrative American trade in Chinese tea and silk.

In 1823 a 24-year-old Yankee, Warren Delano, sailed to Canton, where he did so well that within seven years he was a senior partner in Russell & Company. Delano's problem, as with all traders, European and American, was that China had much to sell but declined to buy. The Manchu emperors believed that the Middle Kingdom already possessed everything worth having, and hence needed no barbarian manufactures."

There is history that is omitted from schools and public discourse as much as possible. Occasionally a quick news article here or there, only mostly read by people who already know or don't care. The rubes like me are kept in the dark as much as possible.
39 posted on 02/19/2014 9:46:00 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: BlueDragon

Soros should not have anything to do with Ukraine as he’s not a Ukrainian citizen.

If I was doing business in France, would I take it upon myself to start trying to, say, get it to leave the EU ?

Quite simply, I’d be afraid of bad business consequences for me if I got too pushy with government officials. I might make what friends I could personally and try to convince them through simple personal debate, but that’s about it. No money, no organizations. I’d be too afraid. Then again, I’m not a billionaire.

And, if the government resisted the effort, would I persist and start building an organization to do that, in including getting involved in ANY way with protestors who wanted the current French government to stand down ?

I would expect some French agents to come try to knock me off if I did that.

The rebellion I’m talking about is what is going on right now in Ukraine.

To you, I seem like I work for Russia, to me, you seem like you work for Soros !

I could of course see internal bad reactions politically to sweeping away the reforms. I remember seeing that story, thinking, oh, that sounds like a bad move.

When you say “assist Ukraine in bridging gaps”... the word Ukraine sounds lofty, but whose progress are the Europeans interested in, Europe’s or Ukraine’s ?

Then you say it was not a CIA/Soros backed “coup”, but that can’t be proven any more than that it was. Only insiders really know.

The turf war between Russia and the West is dumb. There’s no need in business or trade to give the short end of the stick to someone unless the trading partners are greedy. Otherwise, how could trading partners that do happily trade with each other do so ? It’s like the establishments of the various countries just want games to continue. IMHO, at the behest of their local financial elites.

What’s really goofy is that one well-placed guy once said that the major goal was to eventually get the US and Russia to merge, as a final step to unification. Of course, world government is a horrifically bad idea. I’m not suggesting that Russia and the West ever be joined (I’m an absolute believer in national sovereignty) - but certainly it should be possible with where things are today to get along fine.

But that doesn’t fit in with the plans of transnational financial elites.


40 posted on 02/19/2014 10:18:54 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
You are so BACKWARDS.

It is you who does not understand. I know "the story" well enough -- but the sort of things you continue to harp upon are still not enough for me to in knee-jerk response, back the Russians.

Other stuff, like:

is so messed up. The reality was war being waged on Islamic militants, both in Chechnya and in drone attacks in Pakistan.

But nice way to go muddying the waters there, backwards boy.

Though it matters only little (if any) now, before G.W. Bush sent U.S. troops into Afghanistan, I wrote him a letter, begging him to not do it. Ha! like it would have mattered, but I wrote it anyway, keeping it short, focusing on how in the end, it would engender more hatreds than it would remove.

I could have gone into how the Clinton Admin had totally ignored Afghanistan after the Soviets had pulled out -- and how we (the US) were probably on the wrong side of things in helping the "mujahedin" previous to that...

But why did we oppose Russian efforts there? Was it--our own fears that they would be able to force compliance in Afghanistan enough to link up with Pakistan --and get the warm water port they had always been seeking, while gaining ground and [Pakistani or Iranian] allies to eventually war on the U.S.? Like I said...fears. But not entirely unfounded, perhaps. The cold war was still on, and the Soviet Union had yet to fall...

I considered telling G.W. we should have first apologized to the Russians (Russians at that time -- no longer necessarily 'Soviet') for "Charlie Wilson's war" which helped lead to the deaths of many Russian soldiers (even though they, the Russians went there to make war, on their own, in the first place) --- then after honest and forthright assessment of Islamic extremist threats to civilization in general, including themselves, invite them to help us clean the place out, and subdue it once and for all.

But that would have sounded bizarre at the time. How strange does it sound now, in hindsight -- that is if one could get around other considerations that could pop up in this idea of having re-invited the former Soviets back to Afghanistan about ten years ago -- for we would have been setting stage for what we previously thought we didn't want, and would need to trust that an Islamic card would not be played against us, in the future.

What did we end up attempting as "mission" in Afghanistan, but to subdue the basest instincts there among Islamists who seek nothing other than world-wide Sharia Law, and will continue to harbor, breed, and give refuge for the sort of "world" Islamists who --- if they can get their hands on nuclear weapons, will likely use those against population centers anywhere in the world, including the U.S.?

Moscow is not immune from Islamic crazy-threat, but they have to play their own game of survival as best as they can see too -- which I certainly hope does not end up with any thinking along lines that they and the world would be better off without the United States. YOU seem to keep going that direction, though.

And you tell me I need 'understand it better'? while showing me info going into the morality/immorality of targeted killings of non-State combatants?

OH REALLY?!?

41 posted on 02/19/2014 10:36:28 PM PST by BlueDragon (there's no place like home)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Wait a minute. You keep backing up, but slithering sideways while you do it.

Previously you laid it out like it WAS CIA/Soros, international bankers, etc.

Now, you say "only insiders really know".

This is the sort of back-and-forth I can hardly stand. But I go through it, in hopes others will THINK.

Like Russia is a patron Saint, doing nothing but having Ukraine's best interests in mind?

My putting it as "bridging gaps" was about coming up to the EU standards --- so the Ukraine could be let into that club for trading purposes, but still short of full-fledged membership.

What happened to the "lay the offer on the table" thingy? Once shown to you that was much what the EU was openly attempting to do, in their own awkward it's-got-to-be-up-to-our-standards, Euro Union mindset -- and that the Ukrainians had some interest in it, even as they had and still have interests in having clear lines of business flow and communication with their Russian neighbor also -- now you question the EU's motives?

Of COURSE those of the EU are going to look out for EU interests. That doesn't make them into being the bad guys, just for reason it makes Russians uncomfortable.

It's not like the EU, or the EU and the U.S. is going to try and invade Russia. No, that is not going to happen anytime soon, leaving dealing straight across tables, with rules and laws harmonious enough for square dealings, be enough of a goal, and worthy enough in principle. But as always, buyer beware...the best "rules" not ensuring who in any trade will have greatest advantage, but that the transactions be orderly and transparent enough.

As to games of financial elites -- we have that problem in-house. It's difficult to combat, for it's difficult to nail down. I could go into some recap here of things like the mortgage meltdowns, and the scare tactics used in the so-called "bail-outs" of large investment houses, but it would take too much time...

With the Russians, it's more like straight to "all mobbed up" when it comes to the big money.

You may have otherwise better stated being yourself no longer taken in by "NeoCons". I hear that.

But if you assume I have been...and have been arguing from there, I'm three steps ahead, far enough to see some of what the so-called NeoCons were saying, has some truth to it -- even though on other score (banking) I did catch hell on this very forum for opposing the machinations of the derivative traders forcing into law the blurring of lines of separation between commercial banks and investment bankers (aka-insurance monies invested in markets) many years ago. "How will we be able to compete?" it was demanded of me, along with accusations I was against free trade, etc. I told them -- if you want to play that game, start a company, lease an office at Canary Wharf and play to your heart's content -- just don't come begging when you bet wrong and get yourself all lined up to lose your ass, along with many million$ of investor's funds.

But what happened? I wasn't the only one that saw it coming, had a sense that dismantling Glass-Steagall would end in disaster, but was still taken by surprise with the bankers timing it just right, getting $700,000,000 pledged to the "problem" in the summer before George Bush was to term-limit out of office. It was so easy--- they came right back and doubled down on the same scare tactics during the campaigning leading to Obama's eventual election, leaving McCain flat-footed, even though he had warned about the dangers too.

Yes, there are bankers that play all of us for suckers. That doesn't mean we need blame them for unrest in the Ukraine. They didn't necessarily start it, as a goal, as a plan.

It's far too complicated, and damaging too, to Western interests generally and more widely --- to not let go of that sort of "Putin" talking point.

Just STOP.

42 posted on 02/19/2014 11:35:42 PM PST by BlueDragon (there's no place like home)
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To: BlueDragon

You wrote GWB a letter ?

Are you close enough to him that he would seriously read it and be influenced by it ? (then you’re at least a fairly powerful political influencer or operative, so buh-bye)

Are you NOT close enough to him that he would seriously read it and be influenced by it ? (that’s rather pathetic as you’re wasting your time putting letters in the national “suggestion box” which probably just lands you on the Secret Service watch list for nutcases thinking they are an “advisor to the President” in their own minds; it brings to mind the funny routine where Archie Bunker is writing to Nixon)

I’ll give you a way to save face, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you mispoke, or it was when you were young and naive, ___fill in the blank___, etc.

Since you keep accusing me of supporting the Russians or being a Russian operative in nearly every post you make (and you have blamed at least one other longtime FReeper of being on the side of the Russians)...

and I keep repeating that I am against Russia controlling Ukraine

and you keep ignoring those words and again accusing me of supporting Russia controlling Ukraine

I think we’ve just about wrapped up this thread.

I’ll go “write my report” to Putin /LOL do I have to SARC that...

Medved, I will transmit to Vladimir...

and you can go “write your report” to NWO/Bushes/Clintons/CIA/NSA.

Dear Mr. President, Your Honor, Sir:

A. Bunker here...


43 posted on 02/20/2014 8:00:57 AM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
You are an IDIOT.

I actually got a reply back, a few months after U.S. troops were in-country.

The reply letter was as much like a form letter as not, telling me how the President (G.W.Bush) would keep this nation safe, or something along those lines.

Giving me some place to save face? What a joke. That is what YOU continue to attempt for yourself, while slithering along and attack me from standpoint (lay-in-the-mud point?) of own asinine assumptions, while not being able to admit to your own the errors --which included being confused enough to be going against things you claimed you were for. Like--- Ukrainian self-determination.

Right about now, there is a tussle going on inside Ukraine Parliment...ok, it seems to have settled down for the time being Passions are high.

There has been no "coup" (you IDIOT). But there is a fierce political struggle. A coup is when the military takes over. This is closer to verging upon revolution, as the people try to gain back what they worked hard to establish previously.

This guy, is two-faced. Read it. If true, then what is it but Russian-style gangsterism in the business realm?

But the people are too strong. There wasn't enough power on the present government side of things to force the protestors off the Maiden. Ukrainian rivals agree truce to end ‘bloodshed’ By Roman Olearchyk in Kiev and agencies

The impassioned speechifying in the Parliment continues. I don't speak Ukrainian or Russian, so don't know what is being said.

44 posted on 02/20/2014 8:25:45 AM PST by BlueDragon (there's no place like home)
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To: BlueDragon

I give up, you win.


45 posted on 02/20/2014 8:47:35 AM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

But that Guy IS one the side of the Russians. Every time, without fail. Good heavens man, can't you see that jerk is an operative??? Either by accident, due to his own sympathies, or was sent here, which is lesser possibility, but there is something there-- or else the guy is lost, conflicted within himself, searching for something he knows he cannot find.

Look --- I'm sorry for tearing into you, but we've got to pull together here, and not let guys like the stealth Russian distract and divide us.

Look how well and effective he has been thus far. Like a termite, chew, chew, chew.

We have our own problems in this nation, and in the West generally. Sacrificing what we have to give place totalitarian rulers for reason we seek "order" (and the totalitarians of every stripe do promise that, claim it be necessity they be allowed to order everyone around) would be backwards to darkness.

46 posted on 02/20/2014 9:12:02 AM PST by BlueDragon (there's no place like home)
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