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The Crimean Plebiscite - it's the Sudetenland 76 years later
The Thanks Project ^ | 3/16/14 | Steve Berman

Posted on 03/16/2014 6:48:24 PM PDT by lifeofgrace

Seventy-six years ago, the “Sudetenland crisis” was the headline in the world’s newspapers. This revolved around the right of ethnic Germans living in what was then called Czechoslovakia, whom it was claimed were living under an oppressive Czech government who banned their language, traditions and free speech.

Konrad Henlein, the leader of the Czech NSDAP (Nazi party), led the effort for Sudeten independence, with ever-increasing demands on the Czech government. In reality, Henlein was working under strict orders from Berlin, and when the Czech government capitulated to every demand to avoid a German invasion, the demands turned into manufactured and staged stories of Czech aggression, and finally Henlein disappeared quietly over the German border.

(Excerpt) Read more at thanks-project.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Government; History; Politics
KEYWORDS: crimea; kosovo; putinsbuttboys; russia; surrendermonkeys; ukraine; viktoryanukovich; wwii; yuliatymoshenko
Read the whole article...
1 posted on 03/16/2014 6:48:24 PM PDT by lifeofgrace
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To: lifeofgrace

Sadly, the Putin cheerleaders from the Paulbot and DU will be arriving.
Some may even work for Putin.
.
http://nationalpostnews.com/ukraine-the-haze-of-propaganda/


2 posted on 03/16/2014 7:03:48 PM PDT by ncalburt ( Amnesty-media out in full force)
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To: lifeofgrace

Sudetenland was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then Czhechoslovakia. It had never been part of Germany, which came into existence only in 1870.

Crimea was Russian from 1783 to 1954, when General Secretary Nikita Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) gave it to the Ukrainian SSR (a constituent republic of the USSR) as an expression of brotherly love.

There is no comparison for someone who actually knows the history.


3 posted on 03/16/2014 7:27:03 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

Khrushchev was Russian, but he was Stalin’s man in the Ukraine in the 1940s.

At the time, he was consolidating his power, and he needed to win over the Ukrainians he ruled over, so as a cheap, political gimmick, he “gave” them Crimea, although, in reality, it was nothing but a symbolic gesture.


4 posted on 03/16/2014 7:29:06 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

I liken it more to the Nazis marching into the Rhineland, than the Sudetenland.


5 posted on 03/16/2014 7:29:57 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
There is no comparison for someone who actually knows the history.

Right you are. The Crimea is not a modern-day Sudetenland. But please don't tell that to the neo-cons. They want perpetual war, everywhere and all the time.

After all, America must be in everyone's business, everywhere and all the time.

6 posted on 03/16/2014 7:35:34 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

Comparisons to the annexation of Hawaii are fun... though over Obama’s head...


7 posted on 03/16/2014 7:51:11 PM PDT by mrsmith (Dumb sluts: Lifeblood of the Media, Backbone of the Democrat Party!)
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To: lifeofgrace
Pretty much!--Are the panzers rolling or are the troops just riding over in transports?

vaudine

8 posted on 03/16/2014 8:23:14 PM PDT by vaudine
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To: ncalburt

The Putin apologists and propagandists here, usuful idiots, I think, rather than paid lackey, are ready to explain away Gulag!


9 posted on 03/16/2014 8:24:41 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious! We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone!)
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To: Leaning Right
Right you are. The Crimea is not a modern-day Sudetenland. But please don't tell that to the neo-cons. They want perpetual war, everywhere and all the time. After all, America must be in everyone's business, everywhere and all the time.

Strawman fallacy filled nonsense.

The people of Crimea today have a right to self determination. And that right to self determination doesn't include a so called "election" which took place after the arrival of an invading army.

But in your stupid world one becomes a "neo-con" and a warmonger simply because they defend the right to the sovereignty of a country, the inalienable right to self determination and the principle of fair elections.

10 posted on 03/16/2014 8:42:28 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
The comparison you ignore is that both have/had strategic military significance. They also both have/had significant ethnic enclaves. There were many ethnic Germans living in Sudetenland, who lent a facade of legitimacy to Hitler's demands, and who were happy to become a part of Germany. Whether they had ever been a part of a sovereign state of Germany is irrelevant. Just as there are many Russians in Crimea who will be happy to be Russian, whether or not they care about ever having been part of a Russian state in the past. European ethnic boundaries have rarely been reflected in political boundaries.
11 posted on 03/16/2014 8:45:10 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: lifeofgrace

I suspect that only way the the FR Putin apologists could have questioned the results of this referendum would have been if Jimmah Cahtah had participated as an observer. Parochial interests always overrule common sense.


12 posted on 03/16/2014 8:45:32 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious! We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone!)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

True enough.

On the other hand, you left out the part where the Crimean Tatars were deported to Siberia, and ethnic Russians allowed to take their place. True enough Tatars were allowed to return to Crimea ... some of them.

As always, history is a little more complicated than we would like it to be.


13 posted on 03/16/2014 8:47:06 PM PDT by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Belteshazzar

Yup, and the Russians did the same to Eastern Ukraine.

It’s how places become ‘pro-russian’.


14 posted on 03/16/2014 8:56:57 PM PDT by KOZ.
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To: KOZ.

And Ukrainians moved into Galicia and kicked out the Poles.


15 posted on 03/16/2014 8:57:43 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: FreeReign
But in your stupid world one becomes a "neo-con" and a warmonger simply because they defend the right to the sovereignty of a country...

No. In my "stupid" world one becomes a neo-con when one insists on being the moral arbiter of everything, everywhere, all the time.

America crushed an internal rebellion in 1865. But no other nation may crush an internal rebellion unless America approves. Everything, everywhere is the business of a neo-con.

Don't get me wrong. America has vital interests to defend. But those interests are not everywhere, all the time. That's how empires go broke.

16 posted on 03/16/2014 9:06:21 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Leaning Right
No. In my "stupid" world one becomes a neo-con when one insists on being the moral arbiter of everything, everywhere, all the time.

The folks in Crimea have an inalienable right to a fair election.

Putin is the one who insisted on invading Crimea before the election.

You are the one who supports Putin's invasion.

Yet in your world, you and Putin aren't the "moral arbiters of everything".

And folks who point out that your point of view is wrong are "neo-cons".

17 posted on 03/16/2014 9:17:41 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign
The folks in Crimea have an inalienable right to a fair election.

What about folks in North Korea?

18 posted on 03/16/2014 9:19:31 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

so picking a date from 300 years ago to determine borders is pointless.


19 posted on 03/16/2014 9:22:01 PM PDT by KOZ.
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To: Leaning Right

A foreign army rolling in 80000 soldiers and having a ‘vote’ is not an ‘internal rebellion’. It’s an invasion.

You either respect and defend a nation’s sovereignty, or you pay for it ten-fold later.


20 posted on 03/16/2014 9:26:33 PM PDT by KOZ.
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To: dfwgator
The folks in Crimea have an inalienable right to a fair election.

What about folks in North Korea?

You actually think that there is a possibilty that I would say no.

LOL.

21 posted on 03/16/2014 9:31:26 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

Ok, how far are you willing to go to make it happen?


22 posted on 03/16/2014 9:32:25 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: FreeReign
The folks in Crimea have an inalienable right to a fair election. Putin is the one who insisted on invading Crimea before the election.

I agree on both counts.

You are the one who supports Putin's invasion

I made no comment about the legitimacy of that invasion (and yes, it was an invasion). Rather, my point is that it is not appropriate for the US to meddle in this issue. We have no vital interest here. And who are we to lecture the Russians or the Ukrainians? This is a European issue, not an American issue.

Consider this imperfect analogy. Suppose that Maine was separated from the US in 1960, and today the US attempted to reclaim the state (that's not too far-fetched, think about 1861-1865). And suppose that this outraged Russia, and Russia decided to lecture us about our reoccupation of Maine.

What would your reaction be if you were the US president?? Would you thank Russia for giving you moral guidance? Or would you tell Russia to mind its own business?

23 posted on 03/16/2014 9:32:27 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: dfwgator
Ok, how far are you willing to go to make it happen?

I would not invade NK (nor would I invade Ukraine if that's where you are going with this).

24 posted on 03/16/2014 9:45:17 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: lifeofgrace

So aggressively stupid, it knows no bounds. The Crimeans are mostly all Russian s, who desperately want to be with Russia. Even those who aren’t Eastern Serbs apparenly by large margins would rather become Russians than join the Soros-funded mob.


25 posted on 03/16/2014 9:58:01 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dfwgator

In the Bloggers & Personal forum, on a thread titled The Crimean Plebiscite - it’s the Sudetenland 76 years later, dfwgator wrote:
I liken it more to the Nazis marching into the Rhineland, than the Sudetenland.

Don’t fall for the revisionist review which claims that if the French had stopped Hitler from taking over there would have been no WWII. The Saar was an important industrial region to Germany when the country finally united inder Bismarck. It was handed over to the French along with Alsace (Strasbourg which is across the river)) as reparations.

The place was populated by German speakers along the Rhine which spearated it from France. Whe Hitler held his plebicite the place voted 80% to return. After WWII another plebicite was held under the strictest supervision and the result was the same 80%. The French knew this. I was there before and during when that 2nd vote was held.It was fascinating to see women in the major German cities adorned with French clothing partcularly high heel shoes, but The women of the region actually refused to wear Fremch fashions during that time.

Sudetenland was different there were German speakers who prefered to live unmolested for ceturies under the Czech style of democratic government. The takeover of the Sudentenland is probably a better example. That division by the way was culinated after the invasion by Poland and Germany of Czechoslovakia. Which also never gets mentioned in revisionist historic reviews.


26 posted on 03/17/2014 5:17:50 AM PDT by mosesdapoet (Serious contribution pause.Please continue onto meaningless venting no one reads.)
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To: lifeofgrace; All

Comparisons between both moves by Hitler and his Nazi govermnment of the Saarland and Sudentenland are full of revisionist reviews.
The Sudentenland was taken over after the invasion by Poland and Germany of the newly emerged state known as Czecheslovokia. There were german speakers who favored the freedom offered by the Czech goverment. There was no vote. It was a province of the the old Austrian Hungary kingdom and histocially German princes supported the Czech king.

The Saar was a different story. When Hitler held his plebicite 80% of the Germans there voted for being reconected with the united Germany formed under Bismarck it was removed along with Alsace (Strasbourg which is across the river) as reparations to France after WWI. After WWII another vote was again held under the strictest of supervision and again 80% voted for its return.


27 posted on 03/17/2014 6:04:23 AM PDT by mosesdapoet (Serious contribution pause.Please continue onto meaningless venting no one reads.)
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To: mosesdapoet

Sorry about the double post.


28 posted on 03/17/2014 6:07:23 AM PDT by mosesdapoet (Serious contribution pause.Please continue onto meaningless venting no one reads.)
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To: mrsmith
comparison to the annexation of Hawaii are fun

Why is Hawaii a state anyway? Dole doesn't even grow much or any of its pineapples there anymore.

29 posted on 03/17/2014 6:07:43 AM PDT by grania
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
Sudetenland was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then Czhechoslovakia. It had never been part of Germany, which came into existence only in 1870.

Crimea was Russian from 1783 to 1954, when General Secretary Nikita Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) gave it to the Ukrainian SSR (a constituent republic of the USSR) as an expression of brotherly love.

There is no comparison for someone who actually knows the history.

Good explanation.

30 posted on 03/17/2014 6:43:37 AM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

Then you miss the point of the comparison. It’s not comparing historical justifications or claims to land.

It’s comparing the methods and manufactured “ethnic repression” stories used to justify the takeover.

In both the Sudetenland and Crimea situations there was ample time, security, and structure to pursue a diplomatic, well ordered change.

But the situations were manipulated by governments and leaders pursuing power and “testing the waters” for future grabs. I believe this to be the case.

We can debate history all day (in fact, the Tartars are the real occupants of Crimea, Stalin moved Russians in). Historical ethnic and rights claims are not the sole arbiter of sovereignty. If they were, Israel would own Jordan, Sinai, and most of the gulf of Aqaba instead of fighting to keep a parcel the size of Rhode Island.


31 posted on 03/18/2014 5:06:23 AM PDT by lifeofgrace
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