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Just Say No- For white working-class women, it makes sense to stay single mothers.
Slate ^ | April 23, 2014 | Naomi Cahn and June Carbone

Posted on 04/23/2014 3:09:52 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife

".......... Lily, just like better-off men and women, believes that marriage means an unqualified commitment to the other spouse. When you marry someone, you support him in hard times. You stick with him when he disappoints you. You visit him if he ends up in jail. And you encourage him to become an important part of your children’s lives. It’s just that Lily doesn’t believe that Carl is worth that commitment. Nor does she believe that she will meet someone who will meet her standards anytime soon, and the statistics back her up.

The economy has changed. A higher percentage of men today than 50 years ago have trouble finding steady employment, securing raises and promotions, or remaining sober and productive. Blue-collar men like Carl have lost ground while more highly educated men have gained. The unemployment rate for all men ages 20–24 is almost 13 percent, and those with only a high school education are more than twice as likely to be unemployed as those with a college degree. Moreover, many of the jobs that are available have become less reliable than they were for Carl’s dad. They don’t pay as well, last as long, or offer promotions or training. Carl has quit more than one job because he got fed up with his boss. More recently, he was laid off because construction work dried up during a particularly cold spell during the winter. After the layoff, he hung around with his friends, drinking and playing video games. Lily finally had enough when she found out that Carl had run up several hundred dollars in expenses on her credit card......."

(Excerpt) Read more at slate.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Politics; Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: childrearing; destroythefamily; employment; family; godlesscommunism; liberalagenda; marriage
Isn't that special?
1 posted on 04/23/2014 3:09:52 AM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
That's what happens when there just aren't enough metrosexuals to go around.


2 posted on 04/23/2014 3:18:34 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Seems to me the problem, other than risking parenthood with the irresponsible, is that we’re raising too many Carls. How is it that he feels free to quit so many jobs? I assume unemployment helped him after the layoff from construction, but before that? Were his parents taking him in? Was she supporting him?

I agree with Murray, but how did we end up with so many deadbeats in the upcoming generation? It’s not as if we’ve always had high-paying union jobs to keep the low skilled in line, men used to work for any kind of job they could get.

I didn’t read about him being a substance abuser or a girlfriend beater. Just a loafer.


3 posted on 04/23/2014 3:24:36 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
You visit him if he ends up in jail.

"...ends up in jail"? One's presence in jail is often a matter of bad or stupid choices, even in the current ridiculous and overregulated political environment.

4 posted on 04/23/2014 3:25:21 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
It sounds terribly unromantic -- but we've been sold a questionable concept with the old "love conquers all/love makes the world go round" concept.

Marriage is a social partnership for a man and a woman to raise children. In the old days, successful partnerships often resulted in romantic love. Sometimes, they even started that way.
Today, marriage takes place only if full, rich Love completely overwhelms both parties -- then you can have a wedding. If the bloom ever comes off that rose, then it's time to rush to the divorce lawyer.

If the economics were a little different, I think more people would grasp the basic social benefits of making a social partnership work. Love is a really nice thing, but the partnership needs to be primary. A lot of people want to live inside a Hollywood movie. Well ... they don't.

5 posted on 04/23/2014 3:25:52 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I only have one reply to feminists - Cognitive dissonance.

Modern feminists spend all their days disparaging the concept of marriage and of men learning to be real men and then are disappointed when they can't find any marriageable men.

“We make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

6 posted on 04/23/2014 3:36:52 AM PDT by servo1969
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

I have nieces in this woman’s situation, except they married their deadbeats.People need to stop enabling them. Curbing illegal immigration so that there are jobs they can handle would also help.


7 posted on 04/23/2014 3:38:50 AM PDT by beef (Who Killed Kennewick Man?)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Notice how they make “Lily” out to be the smart, savvy one, but she managed to get herself knocked up by a loser like Carl, and she will most likely pick losers like Carl and the sexter for the rest of her life. She should just concentrate on the child now, but she likely won’t.


8 posted on 04/23/2014 3:48:59 AM PDT by MaggiesPitchfork
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

“You visit him if he ends up in jail. And you encourage him to become an important part of your children’s lives.”

Just what the country needs—more children emulating felons.


9 posted on 04/23/2014 3:50:20 AM PDT by Politicalkiddo (The more helpless the victim, the more hideous the assault.)
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To: servo1969

This article makes me laugh. I see an awful lot of Anglo blue collar guys marrying Latin women— because they retain some notion of femininity vs. their Anglo female counterparts. I follow the immigration debate and think somewhere around half of it is business wanting cheap labor, but I also think it has to do with putting idiotic American feminists in their place and getting some actual women for guys to marry.


10 posted on 04/23/2014 4:07:35 AM PDT by ameribbean expat
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To: 9YearLurker
I grew up in an area heavy with immigrant populations from the Ukraine, Russia,Poland,Italy, etc....

people came over and the men worked...they worked....not glorious jobs...not well paid jobs...just a job with a paycheck...

if you got lucky, you could get a better job but you never ever left the job you had until the new job was given to you....

the work ethic has just changed...

I work with mostly women and I'll tell you that so many really support their husbands who have lesser jobs....but the key is, the men work....maybe don't earn much...but they work....

when two people trust each doing the best they can, the marriage can work beautifully...

11 posted on 04/23/2014 4:39:41 AM PDT by cherry
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
I see these people ALL the time... the tattoo industry must be the ONLY one in the United States which is thriving!!!

I don't get it.

This is America.... no matter how poor you are there IS soap and water... yet this crowd always looks like they just crawled out of a gutter.

Anyway...what I REALLLLY don't GET is the idea that women MUST bear children even before they are able to support them...(married or not). What ever happened to the logic of WAITING until the parent (and especially the child) does not suffer because the inevitable consequences of privation and indigence were ignored?

12 posted on 04/23/2014 4:39:43 AM PDT by SMARTY ("When you blame others, you give up your power to change." Robert Anthony)
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To: cherry

Yep. And pride and joy went into the raising of family, so having a so-so job wasn’t such a burden.

Again, I keep going back to how Carl can afford to quit his jobs so readily. Someone has been enabling him.


13 posted on 04/23/2014 4:43:17 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: ameribbean expat

And your post made me laugh.

Are you really suggesting that illegal immigration is supported/tolerated and perhaps soon to be legal for many, partially out of a need for American guys to get a group of subservient women to date/marry?

I think for some American men who turn their back on American women, it’s a cover for some other, very obvious issues that American women see and run away from.


14 posted on 04/23/2014 4:45:24 AM PDT by coop71 (Being a redhead means never having to say you're sorry...)
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To: 9YearLurker
I agree with Murray, but how did we end up with so many deadbeats in the upcoming generation? It’s not as if we’ve always had high-paying union jobs to keep the low skilled in line, men used to work for any kind of job they could get.

1) In the past, it was "work or starve". Today, you can work for a while until you qualify for unemployment, arrange to get laid off, and loaf for a few months.

2) In the past, you were much less likely to get laid if you weren't "commitment-qualified".

15 posted on 04/23/2014 5:00:33 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Yes, I agree, and Carl undoubtedly was loafing on unemployment after he got laid off.

But what about those jobs he quit? He shouldn’t have got unemployment after that. Someone was enabling him.

But even if he was loafing on the girlfriend’s dime, couldn’t he have then taken on the task of childcare for his kid until he found a new job? I’m pretty sure I’d try to avoid having kids with a loafer, but even if that’s what he was, as long as he wasn’t criminal or abusive I’d do what I could to maximize my kids’ proximity to and relationship with their father. That is just so very critical.


16 posted on 04/23/2014 5:05:41 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: coop71
other, very obvious issues

Like wanting a contract concubine and house servant who also holds a full-time job?

17 posted on 04/23/2014 5:13:14 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Entropy is high. Wear a hat! And carry an umbrella.)
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To: 9YearLurker
how did we end up with so many deadbeats

Some writers have suggested that the explosion of divorce in the 70s is a factor. Many of today's young adults learned from their parents that, if something requires too much effort, you just quit.

Excellent point, too, about the fact that someone must be housing and feeding Carl, if he's not holding a job.

18 posted on 04/23/2014 5:15:29 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Entropy is high. Wear a hat! And carry an umbrella.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

There’s a high level of probability that Carl was raised in a family just like the one he and Lily have created; one in which a string of male figures drift in and out of their baby mamas’ and their babies’ lives.

Carl is a perpetual man child because he was never immersed day to day in how a real man should behave.


19 posted on 04/23/2014 5:17:04 AM PDT by randita
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

Why even say “no”? Just kill the parasitic lump of cells if it happens to come along after a one night stand.

It’s not like it’s a human baby or anything. It’s only something to care about when YOU want to care about it, not before. Before, it’s a lump of cells. When you decide and only then is it an actual human being.

You are woman, shout the mighty roar of sexual freedom! You shouldn’t be bothered with antiquated notions of child bearing. There are wombs for rent for that when you get too old to have your own after a successful career anyway; really there are tons of women looking for the highest paying customer to rent their womb. What could go wrong? It’s not like they are in desperate need of cash, because of drug addictions or mental problems or anything like that. Besides, everything can be bought and sold, including human bodies, so that makes it ok.


20 posted on 04/23/2014 5:18:30 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: ameribbean expat

Why not just order brides off the internet from Thailand or somewhere?


21 posted on 04/23/2014 5:24:38 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: 9YearLurker
...but how did we end up with so many deadbeats in the upcoming generation?

We had them raised without fathers just like the set up glorified and rationalized in this article. My Dad was my example. How to grow up, how to marry, how to be devoted, how to father, how to improve, how to neighbor, how to suffer, and finally how to meet death,

In the world of Slate, a sperm bank will do all those things.

22 posted on 04/23/2014 5:25:56 AM PDT by KC Burke (Officially since Memorial Day they are the Gimmie-crat Party.ha)
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To: ameribbean expat

Immigration, and especially illegal immigration, is very much more male than female.


23 posted on 04/23/2014 5:26:08 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Yet another mindless girl gets tied up with alsoer and then complains about it. If she didn't want the problems she should have kept her legs closed until she met a good man.

With the way feminists have destroyed the younger male generation in this country (why work when the social safetyu net will support you? Why get married when almost every girl you date will spread her legs anyway? etc) and the way men normally get screwed in divorces (although that may have changed a little per the article the mindset is still there) young men just don't see the need to be ready for marriage.

(of course this leaves a bunch of marriage minded young ladies available for older guys who are looking to get married. But the feminists will complain about that too)

Someone up thread mentioned Latino women being subservient. Not as far as I've seen. But they are in many cases not rabid men haters and do tend to be more feminine. I know a few guys who married foreign brides for exactly this reason.

From the article:

Does society have an interest in helping couples like Lily and Carl stay together? Probably, but not in the way many policymakers have proposed. Those who would promote marriage seek to do so largely by taking away Lily’s independence.

Bold faced lie.

New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, for example, suggests that more restrictive abortion policies could increase the marriage rate. And many who seek to promote marriage, like the Catholic Church, link the availability of contraception to the sexual freedom they see as responsible for the decline in marriage. Others, like Charles Murray, would cut programs such as Medicaid, food stamps, early childhood education and child care, mandatory family leave, and other policies that make it easier for women like Lily to raise a child on their own.

None of these changes decrease her independence.. IN FACT if she is using any of these programs she is not independent at all. She is depending on the taxpayers to fix her mistake.

What she should do is have the baby, put it up for adoption, and then wait for a man to marry before getting knocked up again.

In our view what would make the most difference to this unfair marriage market are policies that would increase the number and quality of jobs available to working class men,

Good so far.

retraining and unemployment benefits that fill in the gaps between jobs,

And here they blow it. Subsidizing people who are not working only gets you more people not working!

Let’s not make raising a child become yet another marker of class.

It hasn't been for years. The welfare class pops out little meal tickets left and right.

24 posted on 04/23/2014 5:27:11 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: KC Burke

I’m sure that’s a big part of it.

Charles Murray’s thesis that an upper-middle-class relaxing of standards that they themselves follow, but the working class adopt to their detriment probably has credence too.


25 posted on 04/23/2014 5:28:00 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: John O

“Those who would promote marriage seek to do so largely by taking away Lily’s independence.”

“Lily” is going to be DEPENDENT on someone.
It will be a husband or father, an employer, or the government.

And meanwhile, “Lily” is raising the next generation of fatherless kids that will accelerate societal decline.


26 posted on 04/23/2014 5:32:48 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: 9YearLurker

Those of us that pay taxes are paying for the lifestyle of the two people in the article and the leftists’ programs made it feasible for them to grow up and parent in this manner.


27 posted on 04/23/2014 5:32:52 AM PDT by KC Burke (Officially since Memorial Day they are the Gimmie-crat Party.ha)
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To: ilovesarah2012
Why not just order brides off the internet from Thailand or somewhere?

Doesn't work well. The immigrant women get corrupted by American feminists.

There is a trend of retired American men going to other countries, where the retirement check goes further, and where they are not subject to US divorce laws, and marrying a woman there. Columnist Fred Reed went to Mexico, found a much younger Mexican woman, and appears very happy there.

28 posted on 04/23/2014 5:37:57 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Moreover, many of the jobs that are available have become less reliable than they were for Carl’s dad. They don’t pay as well, last as long, or offer promotions or training. Carl has quit more than one job because he got fed up with his boss.

It is odd how jobs don't last when you QUIT them.

29 posted on 04/23/2014 5:43:44 AM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Proud Infidel, Gun Nut, Religious Fanatic and Freedom Fiend)
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear

“he got fed up with his boss”

“He was always tellin’ me what to do & stuff...”


30 posted on 04/23/2014 5:45:12 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB
Yeah I know.

:^/

It is amazing how bosses think they can boss you around just because they give you money to do exactly that.

31 posted on 04/23/2014 5:47:38 AM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Proud Infidel, Gun Nut, Religious Fanatic and Freedom Fiend)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife

And hey, look at what a great job they do with their children. That’s a clear, unambiguous example of how they’re on the ball.


32 posted on 04/23/2014 5:51:18 AM PDT by Ted Grant
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear
It is amazing how bosses think they can boss you around just because they give you money to do exactly that.

It is amazing how women boss their husbands around, just because their husbands give them money to do exactly that!

33 posted on 04/23/2014 6:03:13 AM PDT by Night Hides Not (For every Ted Cruz we send to DC, I can endure 2-3 "unviable" candidates that beat incumbents.)
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
When you marry someone, you support him in hard times. You stick with him when he disappoints you ... etc etc etc. You know, that whole "'Til Death do us part thing." Blah blah blah....

Foolish writer. Doesn't realize that - with a good man - such a promise works both ways. But, I'm sure that she doesn't have any faults for *her* man to overlook. I love my wife unabashedly, for both her virtues and her flaws.

This article - for people who take it to heart - is an excellent recipe for women to wind up alone, in a house, with 27 cats.

34 posted on 04/23/2014 6:09:19 AM PDT by wbill
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To: Tax-chick

No no no, Tax-chick. You have it all wrong. You must be a typical feminazi American woman with no kids and a cushy job you took from a man. (Snicker, snicker. I know better, by the way.)

These women really do love these American guys. It’s not about money or a permanent visa or citizenship. Or taking half his paycheck and sending it to her family in Chiapas. It’s about uh, love. Yeah...love. That’s it.

Sure, he’s only met the woman twice but proposed anyway. And yeah, the guy is 54 and has never married. Or dated anyone. And maybe he does have some serious control issues. Oh, and he lives in a dank basement apartment near an industrial park. But it’s about love. Somewhat. Mostly it’s about serving him and making his family and coworkers finally believe that he can get a woman even though he’s kinda gross and creepy.

The language and cultural barrier only make the relationship more mysterious and romantic. He hands her a pan and she *knows” without him saying a word, that he wants dinner. He gently guides her to the broom closet or the bedroom and she just knows what he needs. Doing the job no American woman will do.

That’s what it’s all about. I think, anyway.


35 posted on 04/23/2014 6:42:58 AM PDT by coop71 (Being a redhead means never having to say you're sorry...)
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To: Tax-chick

Run coop! Run like you’ve never run before!! :-)


36 posted on 04/23/2014 7:17:17 AM PDT by SgtHooper (I lost my tag!)
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To: MaggiesPitchfork
Notice how they make “Lily” out to be the smart, savvy one...

That's a very good point, and evidence of the continuing bias in how women and men are portrayed in the culture. Even though both women and men are responsible for the increased incidence of single parent families, feminists and liberals seem unwilling to ascribe any responsibility to the women involved for their own circumstances. Or to recognize that cultural changes advocated by liberals have lead to the situation now faced by many young women and their children.

Reversing the trend of replacing husbands with the government won't be easy, but it would help millions of children have a better life.

37 posted on 04/23/2014 7:23:24 AM PDT by freeandfreezing
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