Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

401Ks (Vanity)
Self ^ | 05/01/2014 | Tennesseegirl

Posted on 05/01/2014 12:25:33 PM PDT by TennesseeGirl

Questions about 401Ks.


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 401k; accounting; employer; finance
My husband is leaving his employer after 14 yrs. The company has matched about 1/2 of our contribution through the years. The HR person told him today that he loses the employers contribution if he rolls it over to an IRA (or any type of cashing out, minus the taxes, or transfers). He will get only what we have put in through the years unless he leaves the money sitting for 2 more years. I don't have a lot of confidence the company will still be around in 2 years (retail). Was the HR person right? All these years we thought his retirement account was his. We had no clue the company could keep what they contributed; we thought the contributions were part of his benefit. Apparently, we were wrong. Had we known this, we wouldn't have bothered contributed to a company plan.
1 posted on 05/01/2014 12:25:33 PM PDT by TennesseeGirl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

“vesting” is the operative word. I’m no expert, but it’s not really yours until it’s vested.

You’ll want to find out all the gory details of the vesting schedule.


2 posted on 05/01/2014 12:28:55 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Some companies have a vesting schedule attached to their 401Ks. Though 10 years is the most common period for 100% vested. You should contact the financial institution that carries the plan and speak with a representative. They can give you details and unbiased guidance.


3 posted on 05/01/2014 12:29:17 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Only Liberals can look at an amendment that says “shall not be infringed" and see blank parchment.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

As I understand it, the employer contribution belongs to an employee when fully vested, in which vesting occurs after a period of some years. In places I have worked, the full vesting period was five years at each place.

The 401K funds are supposed to be kept with an outside financial trustee. My 401K is with Fidelity, which is a completely separate business entity from my employer. So, if my employer went out of business, the 401K money is still there with Fidelity. So it should not matter if your husband’s company is in financial trouble.

Hope this helps. I really don’t know much about these plans, but this has been my experience.


4 posted on 05/01/2014 12:30:16 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

The vesting (guaranteeing of the employer contribution values) would be based on the employee’s longevity with the employer and/or based on how long the plan has been in force.

Do you have any statements from the retirement plan, or does he have online access? I believe she is wrong, and you most certainly should look into doing a rollover, as soon as all of his contributions are in the plan.


5 posted on 05/01/2014 12:30:20 PM PDT by NEMDF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Don’t talk to the HR Troll. The 401K is probably administered by a separate financial institution. Call them. The contact info is probably on your 401K statement.


6 posted on 05/01/2014 12:30:26 PM PDT by 10mm
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

doesn’t make sense. if he’s been there for 14 years, then the company contributions should be vested (i.e., his property). he should ask to see evidence in the plan’s documents proving the HR rep’s point.

to your second point, the assets in the 401k should be protected if the company goes bankrupt. his account should be at a broker-dealer, and customer assets at broker-dealers are protected by SIPC.


7 posted on 05/01/2014 12:30:29 PM PDT by ghost of stonewall jackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Obtain a copy of the 401(k) paperwork and then have an attorney look at it. Do NOT take what the HR person who works for the company says as being factual. While it is possible the company structured the 401(k) to require a person to work for the company for 16 years before they obtain claim to the company’s contributions, it is highly unlikely the company did so.


8 posted on 05/01/2014 12:30:30 PM PDT by MIchaelTArchangel (Have a wonderful day!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

What post #2 said. You may need two more years to vest. You still should be able to move or roll over the portion which the company did not contribute.


9 posted on 05/01/2014 12:30:58 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

It sounds hokey, there is usually a vesting period, before vesting, the money is theirs, after vesting, the money is yours. Typical Vesting periods are 2-5 years, I was vested after 3.

You should get the policy from HR and review it rather than taking the word of somebody over the phone.


10 posted on 05/01/2014 12:32:14 PM PDT by dangerdoc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Don’t worry about it when Hitlery is crowned on ‘16 she will nationalize all 401k’s and put them in the (safe) social security lockbox. /sarc


11 posted on 05/01/2014 12:32:23 PM PDT by fella ("As it was before Noah so shall it be again,")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/wyskapr.html

Scroll down a bit at the link; there is a chart with vesting requirements, which would seem to indicate that the HR person is lying to you.


12 posted on 05/01/2014 12:32:27 PM PDT by NEMDF
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

http://www.research401k.com/401k-vesting.html

What is 401k Vesting and How Does it Work?


13 posted on 05/01/2014 12:33:50 PM PDT by abb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PieterCasparzen; All

Thanks to all. He IS fully vestedl that’s why I don’t understand. But, this employer has changed the rules so many times over the years we don’t know what the heck is going on. Good advice. We’ll check with the company who administers the plan for the company. I’m just in shock right now. Almost 1/2 our retirement that we had planned on may be gone if she is correct about the way the employer has this set up.


14 posted on 05/01/2014 12:35:26 PM PDT by TennesseeGirl (Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. - Edmund Burke 1790)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl
The other posters are correct. It's a matter of compliance with the vesting period (although one would imagine 14 years would be more than enough). Some 401k plans have little caveats like holding periods after leaving an employer but I have never heard of 2 full years.

As far as worrying about the funds and the possibility of the employer shutting it's doors, if all is on the up and up, the employer contribution has already been paid into the account of the plan administrator and is segregated. Do you know who the plan administrator is (ie. Fidelity, TransAmerica). If so, they most likely have a web site that you can log on to and will most likely get a much better idea of what you can do from the resources there.

15 posted on 05/01/2014 12:36:20 PM PDT by SouthParkRepublican
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

The maximum legal vesting period appears to be six years:

3. When will my company’s contribution be vested?

That depends on the rules of your particular plan. Plan sponsors have some flexibility in deciding vesting schedules when the plan is set up. In some plans, participants are 100 percent vested as soon as they join the plan, while in others, participants have to complete a number of years of service before they’re fully vested.

By law, all participants must be fully vested after six years of service with the company. (If your employer has a cliff-vesting schedule, you must be vested after three years of service, the law states.) Additionally, a few guidelines typically apply to most plans. For instance, in most plans, a participant automatically becomes fully vested when he or she reaches the plan’s defined retirement age (commonly age 65), becomes disabled, or dies, or if the plan is terminated.

You should check with your company’s human resources or benefits representative regarding the rules of your specific plan.


16 posted on 05/01/2014 12:37:34 PM PDT by proxy_user
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

The money he put in 14 years ago is probably fully vested.
However the money he put in last month probably isn’t vested until 2 or more years from now. Check with the 401k plan administrator.


17 posted on 05/01/2014 12:40:10 PM PDT by fulltlt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Your 401K is subject to the regulation of the IRS, it has been since the regulation was established. You don’t own your retirement.

Do what you can for now (direct as you see appropriate). Unless and until fiscally conservative Constitutionalists are elected, be prepared to have your retirement savings converted to 3% per annum growth in gummint “investments”, (bonds).

Don’t ask me how I know.


18 posted on 05/01/2014 12:42:58 PM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The Acronym explains the science.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl
I'm *very* surprised that it's not vested after 14 years.

Typically, it's a percentage (for instance, 20% a year, for 5 years) or a cliff (you get nothing back except what you've put in, until you hit a pre-specified mark - usually 3 or 5 years). Or, you're just vested automatically - whatever it's worth, you get when you leave.

Vesting should be pretty well spelled out in the employee handbook.

Additionally, look to roll it over directly to an IRA rather than take a distribution to avoid taxes and penalties. Typically, you don't even want to touch a check.

Please note, I'm not an investment counselor, nor did I even sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.

Good Luck!

19 posted on 05/01/2014 12:45:05 PM PDT by wbill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

It is permissible to require a vesting period in order to be eligible to claim the employer’s match. But I’ve never heard of a vesting period that extends past an employee’s employment.

This seems like a scam to me. Lawyer up.


20 posted on 05/01/2014 12:51:22 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

His contributions are fully vested day one. Company contributions generally vest on a graded basis over a period of up to 6 years, 1/6 per year though the period could be shorter, of cliff vesting, 0% TO a max of 3 years, then it’s his. Applicable to each years match, not his total service. If that’s not the answer he got, I’d ask HR to explain why, perhaps you’re not in a traditional 401K, then go to the plan administrator and ask again to get the correct answer.


21 posted on 05/01/2014 12:53:20 PM PDT by SJackson (the Democrats take back control, we don’t make (this) kind of naked power grab, J Biden)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

16 years is a long time to be vested. I would check with the company that holds the 401k.


22 posted on 05/01/2014 12:59:10 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Haven't you lost enough freedoms? Support an end to the WOD now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cletus.D.Yokel

How do you KNOW this ?

Snoot ;o)


23 posted on 05/01/2014 1:10:41 PM PDT by snooter55 (People may doubt what you say, but they will always believe what you do)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl
He IS fully vestedl that’s why I don’t understand. But, this employer has changed the rules so many times over the years we don’t know what the heck is going on.

Sounds like you need legal advice. If there's hanky-panky going on, you may be able to get the full proceeds (to roll into an IRA) and take a bite out of their hide.

24 posted on 05/01/2014 1:20:04 PM PDT by cynwoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Thank you for starting this thread. I’m at 14 years at my job, too. I fully expect them to change their rules, and must seek out external retirement options. I was thinking USAA..

Best of luck to you and your Husband on this.


25 posted on 05/01/2014 1:20:40 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (Uninstall Fascist Firefox. Get Pale Moon.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Congrats on taking advantage of the 401K. The matching is gravy. Some cheesy companies do match but then set up a 25% vesting schedule on their extra contribution. Just confirm this is the case, express astonishment and then move on. You done what you could.


26 posted on 05/01/2014 1:29:06 PM PDT by samadams2000 (Someone important make......The Call!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Addendum: If they tell you that you can keep the 401K in place and vest the contribution piece, look into buying an index fund for your stock purchase and leaving it in. It depends on the money amount that will be left on the table if you move the 401k. If it’s mice nuts move on and roll it into a self directed IRA, if its a substaintial dollar amount see if there is a low cost index(s) in your plan.


27 posted on 05/01/2014 1:31:34 PM PDT by samadams2000 (Someone important make......The Call!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

See if they are talking about the withdrawal penalty. Normally that and normal taxes ends up at around 50%. These taxes and penalties are not charged on a QUALIFIED rollover. I would talk to the 401(k) administrator for the specific plan.


28 posted on 05/01/2014 1:34:16 PM PDT by BoringGuy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: snooter55

To quote a contemporary patriot, “Like every inch of my glorious naked body.

“Once the feds regulate something, anything, they own it because the individual can’t defeat their legal and physical firepower. Ask rancher Bundy who looks over his shoulder constantly.


29 posted on 05/01/2014 1:36:29 PM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The Acronym explains the science.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

You need to take the written plan to somebody who knows. But if it’s written that way into the plan I’d say he’s stuck. (Who you’d take it to, I don’t know.) But you’d be amazed at what a letter from a lawyer would do. You’re right to be suspicious. They probably don’t have enough cash in the plan which violates federal law. If that’s the case you may be okay with a lawyer who knows the federal law. Even if you don’t have the legs for a lawsuit I’d have a lawyer threaten one. (He could threaten class action, which I’m certain a financially strained company would want to avoid.)


30 posted on 05/01/2014 1:38:48 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

federal law is that you are 100% vested in no more than 10 years..

you are being handed a line of crap...

tell them to pay you off in the next 60 days or you will file a complaint ( you must have an ira to roll it into first)


31 posted on 05/01/2014 1:47:00 PM PDT by joe fonebone (a socialist is just a juvenile communist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Is the 401K in company stock? If not, it sounds like you’re getting some bad info.


32 posted on 05/01/2014 1:52:36 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 10mm
Don’t talk to the HR Troll. The 401K is probably administered by a separate financial institution. Call them. The contact info is probably on your 401K statement. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE YOU CAN GET FROM THIS THREAD
33 posted on 05/01/2014 1:54:05 PM PDT by onona (I’ve pretty much given up on sanity returning.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl
Your contributions and earnings are always 100% vested when they are deposited. Your employer contribution is vested per a vesting schedule over no more than six years. Your quarterly statements should list the portion of your employer's contribution which is vested. If your husband has been contributing for 14 years, everything (his contributions plus employer contributions, plus earnings) are vested. If you move the funds they must go to an IRA instrument or you will be taxed. If your receive the funds before your husband is 59-1/2 there is an additional 10% tax penalty. Do a straight rollover into an IRA otherwise the fund holder is required to withhold income tax (20%). If you put the money into an IRA at a later date you will have to make up the amount withheld or be taxed on it.
If you have a loan and do not pay off the balance it will be treated as a distribution and you will be taxed.
34 posted on 05/01/2014 1:55:35 PM PDT by anoldafvet (If you think the government is capable of taking care of you, just look at the indian tribes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

You’ve been getting a lot of bad info on this thread — some good info, but too much bad.

I’m a pension actuary and I’ve spent my career helping employers design and administer defined benefit and defined contribution plans. 401K plans are defined contribution plans.

When employee and employer contributions are made they are put into a trust. Those contributions then are not affected by anything that happens to the employer. So, the future of the employer doesn’t affect the money that’s held in trust for your husband in any way.

An employer match of 50% is actually a pretty good plan.

It sounds like the plan vests 100% employer contributions that are in the trust, or plan, for 2 years. That’s a pretty good vesting schedule. That means that employer contributions that have been in the trust for more than 2 years are your husband’s. Employer contributions made during the last 2 years would be forfeited upon termination of employment.

It sounds like either the HR person was communicating incorrect info in some respects or your husband wasn’t understanding fully what was being communicated.

In any event, your husband should have been given a Summary Plan Description that explains the plan, and he has a right to a copy of the actual plan document if he requests it.

An attorney shouldn’t be necessary. That would almost certainly be a waste of money. I seriously doubt that the company or the HR person would try to cheat you. There are very serious potential federal penalties if they did.


35 posted on 05/01/2014 2:00:04 PM PDT by Rum Tum Tugger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

Make certain he is investing in a 401K plan. Get a copy of the plan document, request it from the plan trustee. It will state the vesting period. it can be less, but most plans have a 7 year vesting period. I do not think that you can have a vesting period longer than 7 years.

When you take the money out, set up your rollover IRA to receive the rollover, have a trustee, make certain the distribution is a Direct Rollover to your new trustee. You do not want to take constructive receipt of those funds.

If you do take a premature or normal distribution, and take constructive receipt of the funds they will retain 20% withholding and you may end up treating the funds as income in the year received. If premature you will owe a 10% premature distribution penalty on that year’s taxes.


36 posted on 05/01/2014 2:27:26 PM PDT by Pete from Shawnee Mission
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Rum Tum Tugger
It sounds like the plan vests 100% employer contributions that are in the trust, or plan, for 2 years. That’s a pretty good vesting schedule. That means that employer contributions that have been in the trust for more than 2 years are your husband’s. Employer contributions made during the last 2 years would be forfeited upon termination of employment.

How does that work if the fedgov says you are to be 100% vested at six years? Is it a moving target? My understanding was that once you hit the 100% vesting target date, 100% of what was in the account was yours, both your contributions and the employer's, both past and future contributions.

37 posted on 05/01/2014 2:55:03 PM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Has anyone seen my tagline? It was here yesterday. I seem to have misplaced it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: TennesseeGirl

I can’t see how they can remove money from his 401k, his name is on it, not theirs!


38 posted on 05/01/2014 3:44:44 PM PDT by logic101.net (How many more children must die on the altar of gun control?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cletus.D.Yokel

Thank you Cletus. That answer was well thought out and presented with nothing short of practical logic and common sense.

Snoot ;o)


39 posted on 05/01/2014 6:14:01 PM PDT by snooter55 (People may doubt what you say, but they will always believe what you do)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: SouthParkRepublican

each financial plan has its own stupid rules, you have to contact the Plan Administrator


40 posted on 05/02/2014 4:39:09 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: IYAS9YAS
How does that work if the fedgov says you are to be 100% vested at six years? Is it a moving target?

The target doesn't move, each employer contribution has its own vesting period which cannot exceed six years. In this case, the vesting period is two years, so any employer contributions within the last two years are subject to either partial or full forfeiture, depending on the terms of the plan.

41 posted on 05/02/2014 8:06:37 AM PDT by ken in texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: ken in texas
The target doesn't move, each employer contribution has its own vesting period which cannot exceed six years. In this case, the vesting period is two years, so any employer contributions within the last two years are subject to either partial or full forfeiture, depending on the terms of the plan.

Okay, then help me understand this. The guy has had a 401k plan there for 14 years. He should have been 100% vested at 6 years, so he's been 100% vested for 8 years. How is it the last two year's funds (his employment years 13 and 14) are not fully vested for him?

42 posted on 05/02/2014 8:09:36 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Has anyone seen my tagline? It was here yesterday. I seem to have misplaced it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: IYAS9YAS
Each employer contribution has its own vesting schedule. Six years is merely the maximum period of time permitted by law for 100% vesting per contribution, it has nothing to do with how long the 401K has been active.
43 posted on 05/02/2014 8:53:57 AM PDT by ken in texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: ken in texas
Each employer contribution has its own vesting schedule. Six years is merely the maximum period of time permitted by law for 100% vesting per contribution, it has nothing to do with how long the 401K has been active.

That's not what the literature I've been reading on many sites, including the IRS, says. It says once you are 100% vested, everything contributed up to that point (yours and employer's), and forward from that point, is yours. It says nothing about each employer contribution having a vesting period. It says you, the employee, have a vesting period.

44 posted on 05/02/2014 9:09:41 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Has anyone seen my tagline? It was here yesterday. I seem to have misplaced it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: IYAS9YAS; ken in texas; Rum Tum Tugger
http://www.research401k.com/401k-vesting.html

http://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Plan-Participant,-Employee/Retirement-Topics---Vesting

http://www.401kplanning.org/vesting/

http://moneyfor20s.about.com/od/employerretirementoptions/f/Vested401K.htm

http://retireplan.about.com/od/401kplans/a/vesting.htm

http://www.smart401k.com/Content/retail/resource-center/retirement-investing-basics/company-match - this one specifically states the vesting period doesn't restart with each employer contribution.

All of these specifically state you, as the employee, are vested at a certain time (the company has to at least meet one of two types of vesting schedules, it can vest the employee faster, but can't do it any slower than either of the two schedules - cliff or graduated).

None of mention anything about each employer contribution having a vesting period.

All the companies I worked for matched my contribution each paycheck, the matching didn't roll forward with its own vesting period, once I was 100% vested, it was mine.

When I was 100% vested, all of my 401k was able to be rolled over to an IRA, or even into my new employer's plan if I quit my old employer. None of it was held back. No waiting period. That's why I'm confused by the explanations given by you and Rum Tum Tugger. Everything says you, the employee, have a vesting period to be able to claim the employer matching as yours, not that each employer matching contribution has a vesting period.

45 posted on 05/02/2014 9:38:23 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Has anyone seen my tagline? It was here yesterday. I seem to have misplaced it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: PieterCasparzen; All
Last update. HR was WRONG. Thanks to all for advice.
46 posted on 05/02/2014 9:39:59 AM PDT by TennesseeGirl (Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. - Edmund Burke 1790)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: IYAS9YAS
Good references, thanks. Unfortunately, due to the 'crystal clarity' of all the laws and policies, there are still differences in interpretation. /s

At least in the case of this thread, post 46 indicates the issue has been addressed satisfactorily by HR.

47 posted on 05/02/2014 10:38:41 AM PDT by ken in texas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: ken in texas
At least in the case of this thread, post 46 indicates the issue has been addressed satisfactorily by HR.

Good to hear! Yes, this really is confusing sometimes. I'm just glad it worked out for the OP. Good Friday to you!

48 posted on 05/02/2014 10:40:39 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Has anyone seen my tagline? It was here yesterday. I seem to have misplaced it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson