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Russia Should Follow U.S. Example in Eastern Ukraine
Lawrence Journal World ^ | May 2, 2014 | Reasonmclucus

Posted on 05/03/2014 2:46:48 PM PDT by kathsua

Russia should respond to the situation in the Ukraine by following the precedent set by the United States in a comparable situation. Russia should offer to purchase the Russian populated areas whose residents want to leave Ukraine much like the United States purchased California from Mexico.

In the 1840's people from the United States had settled in parts of Mexico, but were not happy with the Mexican government. U.S. citizens in the Texas region had openly revolted and gained independence from Mexico. People in California were also interested in leaving Mexico. The United States annexed Texas and a border dispute led to war between the United States and Mexico. The United States won the war but instead of simply taking other territory from Mexico forced Mexico to sell California and additional areas to the United States. The United States also assumed some debts that Mexico owed to U.S citizens.

The Russians in the eastern Ukraine don't want to be part of Ukraine any more than the U.S. citizens in California and Texas wanted to be part of Mexico. Russia should help them leave by offering to purchase the region from Ukraine once the people of Ukraine vote for a new government. Government officials chosen in an election have authority from the people to act. Officials who came to power as a result of mob action have no authority from the people to act.

Russia should also consider compensating Ukraine for the its loss of Crimea. The separation of Crimea from Ukraine was comparable to a divorce. Often one party to a divorce will compensate the other by paying alimony to the other/ Russia could undermine claims that it "stole" Crimea by paying alimony to Ukraine. Paying for something isn't stealing.

The mob overthrow of a president from eastern Ukraine and talk of eliminating Russian as an official language indicates that many Ukrainians don't want Russians in their country. The presences of racist elements in the anti-government mob indicates the overthrow may have been in part motivated by ethnic prejudice. Russians in Ukraine fear that failure to allow the Russian region to leave Ukraine could result in use of violence against them.

Failure to allow the Russian region to leave could lead to prolonged efforts against the Ukraine government. European ethnic conflicts [such as the Basque conflict in Spain and the conflict between Irish Catholics and English Protestants in Northern Ireland] can last for generations.

Americans tend to think of ethnic conflicts in terms of differences in skin color, but differences in culture can produce the same results as was the case in Adolf Hitler's efforts to exterminate the Jewish people.

During the collapse of the Soviet empire, the residents of Czechoslovakia recognized that they would have a better chance of success if they split into two countries. Ukrainians made a mistake by keeping the arbitrary political boundaries set by the old Soviet Union. The Soviet Union to a large extent was a Russian empire. Keeping Russian regions in Ukraine means Ukrainians are still subject to control by politicians chosen in part by Russians. Eliminating the Russian regions from Ukraine would make Ukrainians truly independent of Russia.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; History; Military/Veterans; Politics
KEYWORDS: agreeingwithobama; mexico; russia; ukraine; us
The important thing about the Ukraine for us is that Putin is exposing Obama for the fool that he is. We should stay out of these silly European squabbles. The Europeans have gotten us into enough problems during the last century. The Middle East mess is largely due to the Europeans efforts to run the region.
1 posted on 05/03/2014 2:46:48 PM PDT by kathsua
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To: kathsua
The important thing about the Ukraine for us is that Putin is exposing Obama for the fool that he is.

Obama is giving us a chance to see libertarianism in practice, we haven't had a chance to observe true libertarian foreign policy and national defense beliefs, since Jimmy Carter.

2 posted on 05/03/2014 2:53:37 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: kathsua
The meddling of world powers in Ukraine is creating another Bosnia...another bloody mess.


3 posted on 05/03/2014 2:53:41 PM PDT by darkwing104 (Forgive but don't forget)
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To: kathsua

Perhaps we should sell cities like Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore to their citizens.


4 posted on 05/03/2014 2:58:57 PM PDT by expat2
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To: darkwing104

The areas in question have been historically Russian. They were transferred for administration to the Ukraine during the time of the USSR, but it was all one country at that time.

We have no national interest in that area. It may be a concern of the EU, and if there is something there worth spending money and lives on, let the money and lives be German, French, Italian, etc. for a change.


5 posted on 05/03/2014 3:01:17 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: kathsua

Considering all the money Ukraine already owes Russia seems that Ukraine has already done the selling.

Should be a lesson in that for the morons who want us to go deeper into debt to solve somebody else’s problem. Unfortunately globalism is apparently a leading cause of brain damage.


6 posted on 05/03/2014 3:02:43 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin.)
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To: cripplecreek
Considering all the money Ukraine already owes Russia seems that Ukraine has already done the selling. Should be a lesson in that for the morons who want us to go deeper into debt to solve somebody else’s problem. Unfortunately globalism is apparently a leading cause of brain damage.

So you would be fine with China calling in its debt and demanding to annex the US as the price of a settlement?

7 posted on 05/03/2014 3:09:30 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: achilles2000
The areas in question have been historically Russian. They were transferred for administration to the Ukraine during the time of the USSR, but it was all one country at that time. We have no national interest in that area. It may be a concern of the EU, and if there is something there worth spending money and lives on, let the money and lives be German, French, Italian, etc. for a change.

The Warsaw Pact countries have a 50-year history of being Russian provinces in all but name. Should they be ceded to Russia as well?

8 posted on 05/03/2014 3:11:54 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

LOL yeah that’s exactly what I said.

Moron.


9 posted on 05/03/2014 3:13:02 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin.)
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To: kathsua

If Russia followed the USA’s 19th century example they would invade and control half of Ukraine including Kiev. Then negotiate terms under threat of taking over the entire damned country. LOL They would not actually “pay” anything just forgive a large portion of debt.

“From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli”


10 posted on 05/03/2014 3:14:07 PM PDT by Reaganez
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To: Zhang Fei

Difference is no part of the U.S. has people clamoring to be annexed to China nor did China ever have an historic interest in any part of present day USA.


11 posted on 05/03/2014 3:28:33 PM PDT by Procyon (Decentralize, degovernmentalize, deregulate, demonopolize, decredentialize, disentitle.)
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To: kathsua
Russia should offer to purchase the Russian populated areas whose residents want to leave Ukraine much like the United States purchased California from Mexico.

Not one oblast has a Russian majority. Not one oblast has a majority of the population that wants to leave Ukraine.

So what is this guy talking about?

Does he even know what he is talking about?

12 posted on 05/03/2014 3:29:27 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Zhang Fei

The Warsaw Pact countries were non-Russian peoples controlled by the USSR, much like Tibet is controlled by China.

The areas in question were Russian for hundreds of years, which is why they are ethically and linguistically Russian today. A transfer of administrative duties during the Soviet era doesn’t change that, nor does it make the situation analogous to Poland being controlled by the USSR.


13 posted on 05/03/2014 3:33:48 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: expat2

Why not, we gave Maine to Somalia.


14 posted on 05/03/2014 3:44:17 PM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: CodeToad

i thought it was Minnesota that went to Somalia.


15 posted on 05/03/2014 4:00:22 PM PDT by expat2
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To: expat2

Yep, Minneapolis.


16 posted on 05/03/2014 4:35:16 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: achilles2000

The areas in question were Russian for hundreds of years, which is why they are ethically and linguistically Russian today.


You don’t want to play this game. Many areas of Russia itself were not majority ethnic Russian historically. I’ll buy you a clue. Putin won’t be transferring “administrative duties” to the locals in those areas.


17 posted on 05/03/2014 4:40:12 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: lodi90

I don’t need your clue. I make no argument that the territorial borders of Russia are inviolable nor I do claim that Putin would be willing to let,say, Chechnya go, even though Russia would be far better off without it. What I do say is that if a region that has been made subject to one governmental unit prefers to be subject to another, they should be allowed to switch. I am certainly not willing to be taxed or to see Americans killed for the purpose of keeping Slaviansk, for example, subject to the government in Kiev that was installed by a coup.


18 posted on 05/03/2014 7:43:24 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: ansel12

Fomenting a coup, which is what Obama and the EU did, is not “libertarian”. Libertarian foreign policy is generally non-interventionist.


19 posted on 05/03/2014 7:45:23 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: kathsua

Too bad so many posters can’t get past the ghosts of the Cold War so that they can see that you are right.


20 posted on 05/03/2014 7:46:23 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: achilles2000

Obama is showing all the weakness and lack of influence that libertarianism demands from America.

This will be hurting Rand Paul.


21 posted on 05/03/2014 7:50:53 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: achilles2000

I am certainly not willing to be taxed or to see Americans killed for the purpose of keeping Slaviansk, for example, subject to the government in Kiev that was installed by a coup.


What you don’t get is ignoring the situation does not make it better. Events are spiraling out of control in Ukraine due to months of state sponsored terrorism by Russia. There was no unrest in E. Ukraine until Russian Green Men arrived.

Russia needs to GTFO out of Ukraine before other foreign nationals decide to join them on Ukraine’s side. Say Latvian citizens decide to send an international brigade to fight the Russians or their proxies in Ukraine. Then Putin bombs a NATO country. Boom. Huge regional war at a minimum. A large war in Europe will give a big economic hit to the US. Putin must stop his adventures. Period.


22 posted on 05/03/2014 8:06:28 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: achilles2000

Too bad so many posters can’t get past the ghosts of the Cold War so that they can see that you are right.


You couldn’t be more wrong. Putin and the Russian chauvinists dreaming of empire are the ones stuck in the cold war.


23 posted on 05/03/2014 8:09:16 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: lodi90

Reconstituting the old Russian empire is a much more limited goal than the Soviets had. Do you really think that Putin wants, say, Angola? Didn’t think so...

Russia chauvinism has far more limited ambitions than messianic Marxism. The only Marxist true believers are here and in the EU, not Russia (or China).


24 posted on 05/03/2014 9:54:12 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: lodi90

Like so many here, you don’t seem to read. Act One in this drama was the overthrow of the elected government of the Ukraine by forces directed by the Obamalini administration and the EU. The reason was that Russia had offered Ukraine a better economic deal than the EU, and Yanukovich was going to take it. That is when the violence started, and it was started by our side. The Russians and ethnic Russians have followed suit.

You also don’t seem to realize that the Germans do not favor even the relatively weak sanctions that Obamalini is proposing because they don’t see Pution’s actions as threatening an apocalypse. The Germans are right.

It is not our job to keep Slaviansk from switching allegiance to Russia. Do you want your sons or grandsons to die for that?

As for the economic impact, it would be minor compared to the harm OBama and the GOPe are doing every day here.


25 posted on 05/03/2014 10:02:47 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: ansel12

Libertarianism demands a lack of intervention. This whole situation was triggered by US/EU intervention in the first place. It has nothing to do with libertarianism, a topic that few here understand.

Non-interventionism, by the way, was George Washington’s foreign policy.

And, no, I am not enthusiastic about Rand Paul.


26 posted on 05/03/2014 10:05:40 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: achilles2000

So what is that we did to force Russia to start conquering again and rebuilding what Reagan destroyed?


27 posted on 05/03/2014 10:49:29 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

What Reagan brought down was a Marxist state. Neither Putin nor anyone else is trying to bring that back. Putin is a fairly traditional Russian autocrat, and while I don’t find that appealing, the EUSSR and the Obama administration are no more attractive.

Evidently you don’t know that we’ve spent about $5 billion over about a decade promoting “political change” in Ukraine. We have been up to our eyeballs in Ukrainian politics for quite a while. This isn’t a secret. The trouble in Ukraine started, as I have pointed out and which is clear on the record, when the democratically elected government indicated that it preferred a trade deal with Russia to closer ties with the EU, which had offered a fraction of the incentives the Russians had. The Russians offered more because they didn’t want the EU and NATO on their doorstep and they didn’t want to lose effective control over Russia’s only warm water naval base, which is in Sevastopol. This outcome was “unacceptable” to the US and the EU, and it is clear even from intercepts of cables and phone calls (do you even know who Victoria Nuland is?) that we thought we could “shape” a different outcome in Ukraine. This is where the astroturf riots in Kiev began that let to the coup.

Russia wanted close trade ties with the Ukraine so that it would remain a buffer state between Russia and the EU and NATO. Now that the pot has been stirred, it is absurd to force this conflict into the procrustean bed of the Cold War. The Ukraine, like Czechoslovakia, is a combination of significantly different ethnic groups. In the case of Czechoslovakia, the different groups parted ways. In Ukraine they might have coexisted without outside interference. Now it is apparent that the predominantly Ukrainian speaking regions and the predominantly Russian speaking regions cannot coexist under the new government in Kiev. One solution is the obvious irredentist solution. Alternatively, it might be possible for there to be some sort of “federal” solution. In any event, despite propaganda from DC and Brussels to the contrary, Putin is not the Bogey Man of this affair. You might also give a thought to what we did in Bosnia and Kosovo.

As a side note, the Germans didn’t contemplate anything but smooth sailing after the coup. Now that it is turning out to be messy, they are backing away because they realize that destabilizing Ukraine has created a problem for their economy. Merkel isn’t living in fear of Russian tanks in Berlin. She knows that is boobbait for the US public. She does know that Germany’s economy doesn’t need more economic fallout from this little adventure. That’s why the Germans won’t really support even the weak sanctions Obama wants. The way the situation gets worse is for the Administration to double down in an effort to distract people from what is happening here, much like Clinton used the Balkan wars in the 90s.


28 posted on 05/04/2014 8:46:36 AM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: achilles2000

Reagan brought down a Russian empire, one that Putin is now rebuilding in the face of your weakness.


29 posted on 05/04/2014 9:34:29 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

You evidently don’t read and haven’t had a new thought since about 1988. Every event is “Groundhogs Day” for you. Got it.


30 posted on 05/04/2014 10:28:28 AM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: achilles2000

I did miss whatever led you to become a supporter of Russian empire over NATO and the United States.

I do find NATO and America more attractive than Putin’s reassembled Russian empire of evil and oppression and hostility to the West.


31 posted on 05/04/2014 10:39:22 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

You don’t read. If you did, you would know that I am not a supporter of “Russian Empire over NATO and the United States.” In this particular case, however, the EU and the Obama administration (which I consider traitorously anti-American)have created a crisis that didn’t need to happen.


32 posted on 05/04/2014 12:53:11 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: achilles2000

Yeah, I read you correctly the first time, see post 31.


33 posted on 05/04/2014 12:57:22 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: kathsua
People in California were also interested in leaving Mexico. The United States annexed Texas and a border dispute led to war between the United States and Mexico. The United States won the war but instead of simply taking other territory from Mexico forced Mexico to sell California and additional areas to the United States.

A really bad historical precedent for the US to invoke. In 1846 the population of what is now CA consisted of <10,000 Californios of "Mexican" ancestry, who'd been around for up to 75 years and about 150,000 Indians, who'd been around forever.

Something under 1000 Americans had recently entered the state, many if not most in the last year or two.

The idea that this truly tiny American minority (well under 1% of the people in the province, most of them very recent entrants) had any legitimate right to revolt and become the legitimate government is ludicrous, slightly mitigated by the fact that some of the Californios supported the American side.

To illustrate how tiny the American population of CA was, had the Donner party managed to make it across the pass before being snowed in, they would have increased the American population by about 10%.

34 posted on 05/05/2014 4:16:27 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: expat2

Do you we could find someone foolish enough to buy them?


35 posted on 05/07/2014 1:59:29 PM PDT by kathsua (A woman can do anything a man can do and have babies besides;)
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To: achilles2000

What is surprising is that so many conservatives believe Obama even though he lies about everything else.


36 posted on 05/07/2014 2:04:48 PM PDT by kathsua (A woman can do anything a man can do and have babies besides;)
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To: kathsua

Many of the people on FR lived through the Cold War, and I think they have a hard time grasping that things have changed radically since then internationally and that as things are now the lines between the “good guys” and “bad guys” are often very blurred.

There is no question that Obama’s administration was up to its neck in helping foment an insurrection in Ukraine just as the administration was instrumental in bringing about the so-called “Arab Spring”. In both cases, the administration’s policies led to disastrous outcomes.


37 posted on 05/07/2014 4:32:40 PM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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