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AR: Gunfight, two Permit Holders, two off Duty Police, one Attacker
Gun Watch ^ | 15 May, 2014 | Dean Weingarten

Posted on 05/15/2014 7:22:59 AM PDT by marktwain


It is commonly said by those opposed to the second amendment, that police will not be able to discern armed citizens who are legally carrying guns from criminals, and that armed confrontations will then result in widespread carnage.

Here is an example where it did not happen.  From fox16.com:


Investigators said Qandil confronted his estranged wife, Tabitha Qandil, 31, Grayson Herrera, 23, and Dustin O'Conner, 27, as the three were headed to the movie theater.

"The victim raised his shirt and showed a weapon within his waistband, began to pull the weapon. The other two were concealed handgun weapon carriers and they pulled their weapons, and there was an exchange of gunfire," said Grubbs.

An off-duty officer was working security inside the Malco, another off-duty officer was attending a movie, when both heard the shots and ran to the parking lot, according to Grubbs. The officers were able to disarmed Herrera and O'Conner.
 Note that there were two legal firearms carriers, one attacker, and two off duty police officers.  The officers arrived very quickly, and they were not in uniform.  The defenders did not shoot the officers.  The officers did not shoot the defenders.  The attacker was killed, and one defender was wounded.  The wounded defender was expected to be released from the hospital the next day.  No one else was hit.

Consider the implications.  You have all the potential for chaotic gunfire causing mass casualties imagined by those who want the public disarmed.  More than one defender.  The attacker starting with surprise.  More than one police officer.  Officers that are not in uniform.  Yet only  the attacker was killed, and one defender was wounded by the attacker.  The situation simply refuses to fit the anti-second amendment template, because the template does not fit reality.

When five bank robbers attempted to rob a bank in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, in 1922, dozens of shots were fired by numerous citizens.  Three bank robbers were killed and two seriously wounded.   Not one innocent citizen was shot.  The idea of multiple people being shot by citizen defenders in such a confrontation is simply a myth.   It, like most arguments used by those opposed to the Second Amendment, is simply a figment of the imagination of people who are proudly ignorant about firearms and self defense, and who want to insure that most citizens are disarmed.

Legally armed citizens are not gang-bangers who fire indiscriminately at houses to enforce their "turf".  Sometimes innocents are hit, but ordinary armed citizens have a better record of hitting the people that need to be stopped, and no others, than police do. 

©2014 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch


TOPICS: Government; History; Politics; Society
KEYWORDS: ar; armedcitizen; banglist; ftsmith; guncontrol
Permit holders have a better record than police. It is not hard to explain. Police initiate confrontations, permit holders avoid them.
1 posted on 05/15/2014 7:23:00 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

When I carry concealed (anytime I leave the house) I am professionally dressed in a long sleeved shirt and nice pants. That’s because officers are likely to respond better if I’m in a confrontation than if I were in baggy shorts, flip-flops and a hoody. The added advantage is clerks are more helpful. People smile at me and are nicer.

Incidentally, I immediately leave any situation that might result in drawing my gun. I never engage in or respond to road rage. When people aggressively tailgate I pull off the road and get back on when they’re ahead of me. I do everything I can to make the necessity of pulling my gun unlikely.


2 posted on 05/15/2014 7:33:45 AM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: Gen.Blather

An armed society is a polite society. ~ Robert Heinlein


3 posted on 05/15/2014 7:38:55 AM PDT by null and void (When was the last time you heard anyone say: "It's a free country"?)
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To: Gen.Blather

“I do everything I can to make the necessity of pulling my gun unlikely.”

The common experience. People who think about being armed and the consequences work hard to avoid them.

It is rather like soldiers and generals who hate war. War makes a mess of armies. Most Military people hate war.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum


4 posted on 05/15/2014 7:44:13 AM PDT by marktwain (The old media must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: Gen.Blather
When I carry concealed (anytime I leave the house) I am professionally dressed in a long sleeved shirt and nice pants. That’s because officers are likely to respond better if I’m in a confrontation than if I were in baggy shorts, flip-flops and a hoody. The added advantage is clerks are more helpful. People smile at me and are nicer.

wise and very nice... and i find this to be true... when i go shopping i wear nice attire and receive excellent service...

5 posted on 05/15/2014 7:44:37 AM PDT by latina4dubya (when i have money i buy books... if i have anything left, i buy 6-inch heels and a bottle of wine...)
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To: marktwain

The reality of this story is that no cop was involved in the situation. Off duty cops are citizens like everyone else.


6 posted on 05/15/2014 7:47:22 AM PDT by raybbr (Obamacare needs a death panel.)
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To: raybbr

Aren’t cops citizens like everyone else? ;)


7 posted on 05/15/2014 8:00:46 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: marktwain
Police initiate confrontations, permit holders avoid them.

In fairness, it IS (part of) their job.

8 posted on 05/15/2014 8:07:21 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: JimRed

“Police initiate confrontations, permit holders avoid them.

In fairness, it IS (part of) their job.”

Yes, it is, but it does help explain the asymmetry.


9 posted on 05/15/2014 8:11:06 AM PDT by marktwain (The old media must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: marktwain
Most Military people hate war.

An oldie from the 60's...

Soldiers Who Want To Be Heroes number practically zero,
But there are millions who want to be civilians

10 posted on 05/15/2014 8:11:28 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: raybbr

Yes, and I would personally hope that they ran to the gunfire yelling “police” and with side arms kept holstered until and if needed, badges outside their shirt etc. Otherwise, a reasonable man would could and perhaps should assume continued threat....

I would think that LEOs should get some through training on how to respond when off duty/out of uniform. Just because they may know they are “good guys” does not mean anyone else would or should.

Lesson to CC types- be very careful about thinking how you would respond to shot being fired as well. Lots of conscious thought prior to “running to the guns”. Wear a IIA or better vest as well.


11 posted on 05/15/2014 8:11:50 AM PDT by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret), "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War")
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To: marktwain
Permit holders have a better record than police.

Permit holders are held to a higher standard than police. A permit holder will be held personally responsible for every round they fire. LEO not so much. LEO stray shots that hit an innocent will likely result in little more than an administrative discipline, if that.

12 posted on 05/15/2014 8:16:02 AM PDT by Teotwawki (For a person to get a thing without paying for it, another must pay for it without getting it.)
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To: marktwain

This worked out ok because of where it happened. In AR, like most of flyover country, you’ll likely get this outcome. Play the same scenario in LA or NY and you’ll be lucky if 20 people don’t wind up dead or wounded. To be safe around guns requires a gun culture that transmits knowledge and lore of handling guns safely and responsibly.


13 posted on 05/15/2014 8:39:56 AM PDT by Paine in the Neck (Socialism consumes EVERYTHING)
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To: Gen.Blather

I usually carry in all black. A long, button short-sleeved shirt, hoodie and black jeans and boots. It’s just the manner that I’ve trained with and become accustomed to. Considering I’m tall, and also wearing my hair in a ponytail that goes down to my beltline, not too many see me as a victim.


14 posted on 05/15/2014 8:52:29 AM PDT by RandallFlagg (Uninstall Fascist Firefox. Get Pale Moon.)
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To: RandallFlagg

Kel-tec .380 is my amex card.

Made in FL, guaranteed for life and you don’t even know it’s in your pocket.


15 posted on 05/15/2014 8:58:41 AM PDT by bicyclerepair (The zombies here elected alcee hastings. TERM LIMITS ... TERM LIMITS)
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To: marktwain

bkmk


16 posted on 05/15/2014 9:00:02 AM PDT by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: bicyclerepair

Summer carry is my Kahr CW45.
Winter is my Springfield XDm .45 or Beretta 92FS.
For the latter two boat anchors, I have a CCWComfortSling to keep my pants from hitting the floor.


17 posted on 05/15/2014 9:00:55 AM PDT by RandallFlagg (Uninstall Fascist Firefox. Get Pale Moon.)
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To: Manly Warrior

Lots of sound advice on this thread, i.e. avoid confrontations, think about scenarios ahead of time. LOL! I got ripped on another thread for suggesting the same.


18 posted on 05/15/2014 9:04:29 AM PDT by TheDon (Californians are losing their right to keep and bear firearms one firearm at a time.)
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To: marktwain
Holy crap.

A man is killed after he confronts his estranged wife and two other men at Central Mall, according to Fort Smith Police.

The man was killed. This story is in the past, so that and the rest of the sentence should be in the past tense. Similar to how the rest of the story that refers to what happened is in the past tense.

Investigators said Qandil confronted his estranged wife, Tabitha Qandil, 31, Grayson Herrera, 23, and Dustin O'Conner, 27, as the three were headed to the movie theater.

How many people were there? there should be an "as well as" in between Tabitha's 31 and Grayson. That sentence implies Qandil chased after 4 people, with the wife being unnamed.

"The victim raised his shirt and showed a weapon within his waistband, began to pull the weapon. The other two were concealed handgun weapon carriers and they pulled their weapons, and there was an exchange of gunfire," said Grubbs.

The victim first pulled a weapon? Don't you mean the perpetrator? And that second sentence is just awkward.

An off-duty officer was working security inside the Malco, another off-duty officer was attending a movie, when both heard the shots and ran to the parking lot, according to Grubbs. The officers were able to disarmed Herrera and O'Conner.

The officers 'disarmed'? Or 'were able to disarm'? And here, they should use an 'and' in between the officers, instead of so many commas.

Sigh. It's hard to read stories like this when the writer/editor sounds like they have an elementary school level education. On the other hand, glad the bad guy got what he deserved, the wife is lucky her friends were both carrying and able to defend them.
19 posted on 05/15/2014 9:21:46 AM PDT by Svartalfiar
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To: RandallFlagg

” also wearing my hair in a ponytail that goes down to my beltline,”

Okay, wildly jealous. I do have hair down to my beltline, but not one strand starts on my head.


20 posted on 05/15/2014 1:30:46 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
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