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Everything is optics and cover-up to the most corrupt of American regimes
Coach is Right ^ | 6/15/14 | Suzanne Eovaldi

Posted on 06/15/2014 8:40:26 AM PDT by Oldpuppymax

”So we could’ve gone down there and gotten them easily,” retired USAF Major Eric Stahl told FoxNews.com this week. (1) A one and one half hour prep time and a 3 hour and 15 minute flight into the Benghazi hot zone were their real time statistics. Already on stand-by alert for high priority missions at Ramstein Air Base in Germany, THEY WERE NEVER CALLED by the White House! That fact stands out in the Bret Baier interview which the outstanding US airman gave on live air. Just imagine that stunning revelation given by Maj. Stahl who also said he was NEVER INTERVIEWED by the Obama administrations’ Accountability Review Board.

Other details of the ineptness and incompetence of the Obama White House are emerging and include not allowing the FBI to interview CIA security officers when the Stahl C-17 touched down at Ramstein. Philip D. Murphy, senior State Department diplomat to Germany, whisked the Benghazi survivors away to do the de-brief. So was this mess more than mere incompetence? Did Murphy just have to be the first one to handle the survivors in order to reconstruct this horrible tragedy into the pitiful and insulting story line of an anti-Islamic video protest?

Major Stahl’s crew was under such urgent danger as they loaded the corpses of US Ambassador Chris Stevens, Information Officer Sean Smith, and former Navy SEALS Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods onto the military aircraft that they weren’t allowed...

(Excerpt) Read more at coachisright.com ...


TOPICS: Government; Military/Veterans; Politics
KEYWORDS: barackobama; benghazi; islam; muslims

1 posted on 06/15/2014 8:40:26 AM PDT by Oldpuppymax
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To: Oldpuppymax

Obama/Clinton , Na it’s way too much trouble


2 posted on 06/15/2014 8:43:19 AM PDT by molson209 (Blank)
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To: Oldpuppymax
to quote the chauffeur baggage handler and his baggage....

“Hey Dude..that was yrs ago!”...”So what difference does it make now?”

3 posted on 06/15/2014 8:53:41 AM PDT by M-cubed
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To: Oldpuppymax

As posted by me a while back written by Col “Hands” Handley, a real fighter pilot. Last of the breed.

Betrayal in Benghazi
Phil “Hands” Handley
Colonel, USAF (Ret.)

The combat code of the US Military is that we don’t abandon our dead or wounded on the battlefield. In US Air Force lingo, fighter pilots don’t run off and leave their wingmen. If one of our own is shot down, still alive and not yet in enemy captivity, we will either come to get him or die trying. Among America’s fighting forces, the calm, sure knowledge that such an irrevocable bond exists is priceless. Along with individual faith and personal grit, it is a sacred trust that has often sustained hope in the face of terribly long odds.

The disgraceful abandonment of our Ambassador and those brave ex-SEALs who fought to their deaths to save others in that compound is nothing short of dereliction-of-duty. Additionally, the patently absurd cover-up scenario that was fabricated in the aftermath was an outright lie in attempt to shield the President and the Secretary of State from responsibility.

It has been over eight months since the attack on our compound in Benghazi. The White House strategy, with the aid of a “lap dog press” has been to run out the clock before the truth is forthcoming. The recent testimonies of the three “whistle blowers” have reopened the subject and hopefully will lead to exposure and disgrace of those responsible for this embarrassing debacle.

It would appear that the most recent firewall which the Administration is counting on is the contention that there were simply no military assets that could be brought to bear in time to make a difference… mainly due to the unavailability of tanker support for fighter aircraft. This is simply BS, regardless how many supposed “experts” the Administration trot out to make such an assertion. The bottom line is that even if the closest asset capable of response was half-way around the world, you don’t just sit on your penguin ass and do nothing. The fact is that the closest asset was not half-way around the world, but as near as Aviano Air Base, Italy where two squadrons of F-16Cs are based. Consider the following scenario (all times Benghazi local):

When Hicks in Tripoli receives a call at 9:40 PM from Ambassador Stevens informing him “Greg, we are under attack!” (his last words), he immediately notifies all agencies and prepares for the immediate initiation of an existing “Emergency Response Plan.”

At AFRICON, General Carter Ham attempts to mount a rescue effort, but is told to “stand down.”

By 10:30 PM an unarmed drone is overhead the compound and streaming live feed to various Command and Control Agencies… and everyone watching that feed knew damn well what was going on.

At 11:30 PM Woods, Doherty and five others leave Tripoli, arriving in Benghazi at 1:30 AM on Wednesday morning, where they hold off the attacking mob from the roof of the compound until they are killed by a mortar direct hit at 4:00 AM.

So nothing could have been done, eh? Nonsense.

If one assumes that tanker support really was not available… what about this:
• When at 10:00 PM AFRICON alerts the 31st TFW Command Post in Aviano Air Base, Italy of the attack, the Wing Commander orders preparation for the launch of two F-16s and advises the Command Post at NAS Sigonella to prepare for hot pit refueling and quick turn of the jets.
• By 11:30 PM, two F-16Cs with drop tanks and each armed with five hundred 20 MM rounds are airborne. Flying at 0.92 mach they will cover the 522 nautical miles directly to NAS Sigonella in 1.08 hours.
• While in-route, the flight lead is informed of the tactical situation, rules of engagement, and radio frequencies to use.
• The jets depart Sigonella at 1:10 AM with full fuel load and cover the 377 nautical miles directly to Benghazi in 0.8 hours, arriving at 1:50 AM… which would be 20 minutes after the arrival of Woods, Doherty and their team.
• Providing that the two F-16s initial pass over the mob, in full afterburner at 200 feet and 550 knots did not stop the attack in its tracks, only a few well placed strafing runs on targets of opportunity would assuredly do the trick.
• Were the F-16s fuel state insufficient to recover at Sigonelli after jettisoning their external drop tanks, they could easily do so at Tripoli International Airport, only one-half hour away.
• As for those hand-wringing naysayers who would worry about IFR clearances, border crossing authority, collateral damage, landing rights, political correctness and dozens of other reasons not to act… screw them. It is high time that our “leadership” get their priorities straight and put America’s interests first.

The end result would be that Woods and Doherty would be alive. Dozens in the attacking rabble would be rendezvousing with “72 virgins”… and a clear message would have been sent to the next worthless POS terrorist contemplating an attack on Americans that it is not really a good idea to “tug on Superman’s cape.”

Of course all this would depend upon a Commander In Chief that was more concerned with saving the lives of those he put in harm’s way than getting his crew rest for a campaign fund raising event in Las Vegas the next day. As well as a Secretary of State that actually understood “What difference did it make?”, or a Secretary of Defense whose immediate response was not to the effect that “One of the military tenants is that you don’t commit assets until you fully understand the tactical situation.” Was he not watching a live feed from the unarmed drone… and he didn’t understand the tactical situation? YGBSM!

Ultimately it comes down to the question of who give that order to “stand down?” Whoever that coward turns out to be should be exposed, removed from office, and face criminal charges for dereliction of duty.

The combat forces of the United States of America deserve leadership that really does “have their back” when the chips are down.


4 posted on 06/15/2014 8:57:58 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Oldpuppymax

Hillary and Obama were up to no good in Libya. Al Qaeda found out about it, and is blackmailing them. Hillary and Obama, in turn, are using the threat of releasing the information on the missing antiaircraft missiles to blackmail the Republicans and the press to keep quiet. And the people paying the blackmail to Al Qaeda are you and me. Hillary and Obama caused this, and then use our money. They might even be skimming some money off the top for themselves.
The one constant in this is Hillary and Obama.


5 posted on 06/15/2014 9:01:35 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Oldpuppymax

I was at a Birthday Party last night.

Obama is in town Fundraising, and one of the Women there was all excited because she saw The King’s entourage driving through Laguna Beach where she lives.

She whips out her iPhone to show everyone the Video. At that point I can’t stand it, get up and say, “that’s nice, he’s here while the Middle East is imploding, people are dying and he is undoing everything my two Nephew’s accomplished when they served over there”.

I also commented under my breathe that of this was Bush, there would outrage in the Press that he was Fundraising when all this crap is going on. I got a few nods from a couple of Guys standing there with that comment.

The rest of the assembled crowd just looked at me as I got up and walked away disgusted. The Hostess later came up to me and said the Gal with the Video doesn’t have a lot of excitement in her Life so it was a big deal to see the President drive by. She knows my attitude towards The Won.

We see Obama for what he is, people like the Woman with the Video see what they want to see. There are no “OPTICS” for Obama to worry about. He gets away with anything he likes.


6 posted on 06/15/2014 9:05:57 AM PDT by Kickass Conservative (THEY LIVE, and we're the only ones wearing the Sunglasses...)
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To: Oldpuppymax

Nancy Pelosi parody...this is funny!

http://safeshare.tv/w/zJMqpUHAel


7 posted on 06/15/2014 9:11:11 AM PDT by entropy12 (Obummer = worst president ever, thanks to voters who abstained on election day!)
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To: Kickass Conservative

Yep. My Mother prides herself on being up to date on world affairs by watching CNN. I was talking to her last week and mentioned the dead Ambassador in Benghazi. She got really quiet and asked, “When did that happen?”


8 posted on 06/15/2014 9:23:33 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Kickass Conservative

Its not pleasant to be pi$$ed off 24/7 because of what that commie rat ba$tard is doing to our country and the rest of the free world, is it?


9 posted on 06/15/2014 9:30:54 AM PDT by 43north (BHO: 50% black, 50% white, 100% RED.)
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To: Kickass Conservative
 photo IRS-130_zpsf77659d2.jpg
10 posted on 06/15/2014 9:42:48 AM PDT by Patton@Bastogne (.)
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To: Oldpuppymax
Everything is Optics
11 posted on 06/15/2014 9:49:46 AM PDT by Rodamala
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To: Hulka

For later to, pass it on.


12 posted on 06/15/2014 9:52:52 AM PDT by citizen (There is always free government cheese in the mouse trap.....https://twitter.com/kracker0)
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To: Hulka

Save


13 posted on 06/15/2014 9:57:49 AM PDT by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux. If not now, when? If not here, where?)
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To: Hulka

“As posted by me a while back written by Col “Hands” Handley, a real fighter pilot. Last of the breed.

Betrayal in Benghazi
Phil “Hands” Handley
Colonel, USAF (Ret.)

The combat code of the US Military is that we don’t abandon our dead or wounded on the battlefield. In US Air Force lingo, fighter pilots don’t run off and leave their wingmen. If one of our own is shot down, still alive and not yet in enemy captivity, we will either come to get him or die trying. Among America’s fighting forces, the calm, sure knowledge that such an irrevocable bond exists is priceless. ...”

Wrong.

This little item has been making the rounds courtesy of internet re-forwardings. Must be the tenth time I’ve seen it re-surface; it’s always the same, right down to the typos.

Fighter pilots give lip service to not running off and leaving wingmen. Groundpounders are not their wingmen. About such, they know little and care less.

Any fighter pilot who fails to rise above the rank of Colonel is no more than the most minor of players, and the forum would be wise to read any alleged utterings with more than a grain of salt.

F-16Cs are not capable of what he implied. They haven’t the legs to make it to Benghazi without inflight refueling, and they never dash about flippantly jettisoning underwing tanks (their range is far too short for anything except limited point defense). Nor do they simply breeze in to a civil airfield unannounced and take on fuel. Both such evolutions require days of advance notification and coordination, sometimes weeks.

If by some miracle they had actually appeared in the air over Benghazi, they do not have the sensors to discriminate between friend and foe. If they had laid down any ordnance, the odds are less than even they’d have killed the hapless Americans stranded there.

I spent 29 years in uniform, working about half the time in support of the very same USAF outfits and systems this guy Handley claims to know so much about. No one among the lesser mortals can recall meeting him, nor even having heard his name, before this text appeared. As if by magic.


14 posted on 06/15/2014 12:30:45 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: annieokie; penelopesire; maggief; Protect the Bill of Rights; thouworm; SE Mom; Nachum; onyx; ...

Benghazi ping.

Let Republicanprofessor know if you want on or off this ping list.


15 posted on 06/15/2014 12:52:31 PM PDT by Republicanprofessor
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To: Oldpuppymax
A one and one half hour prep time and a 3 hour and 15 minute flight into the Benghazi hot zone ... Already on stand-by alert for high priority missions at Ramstein Air Base in Germany, THEY WERE NEVER CALLED by the White House!

Obama is sooooooooo lucky he owns the press....

16 posted on 06/15/2014 2:03:21 PM PDT by GOPJ (#2 reply spot RESERVED for Tokyo Rose comments: "nothing works - give up - it's all hopeless".)
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To: schurmann; Hulka

I agree, I’ve also seem it here and on Facebook and not being a pilot, yet been skeptical on the “facts” posted there. One could/would wish it was possible!!!


17 posted on 06/15/2014 11:29:29 PM PDT by danamco (-)
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To: schurmann

You should make sure you know what you are talking about when you attack. In this case, you are very foolish.

There are internet rumors and such but this missive is most certainly not some internet hype and can be easily verified. Heck, you can find his contact details and ask him yourself.

I posted it because I know Hands and we are good friends. He is a patriot and to attack him from a position of ignorance like you have done speaks to your character.

Hands sent it direct to me and a few other friends. So, you are wrong to imply it is made up by some guy no one ever heard of or someone with no credibility. You are very wrong. As wrong as you can be.

I will be sure to let Col Handley know your emotions. Better, you should contact him direct and call him on his supposed ignorance. (Or at the very least, be noble and let him know someone is using his name).

I shall also let my A-10 buddies know you think their sacrifice is not appreciated, and in fact, dismissed:
http://www.2951clss-gulfwar.com/a10_combat_losses.htm

I would also like to tell Capt Steve Phyllis, a former student of mine, but he was killed flying in Gulf War I (as noted in the link above)

Are you a fighter pilot? No, you are not. You have no idea what you are talking about, neither do your ‘friends.’

If they haven’t heard of him it is because they are truly not in that world.

http://www.richthistle.com/aviation-articles-othermenu-133/61-rhino-charge-f-4-phantom-viet-nam-war-a-pilots-story-viet-nam-war

Because you and your supposed friends don’t know of him, this means the Dogfights TV show made up Hands and make up his record-setting gun kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2y_B_uFTNw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPLZazga4RM

In Afghanistan high-speed low altitude passes are used, followed by strafe runs if necessary. Of course you already knew that, serving for 29 years as a fighter pilot and with combat experience flying the jet.

Colonels are top 5% of the rank structure in the Air Force. I suppose you being a fighter pilot that hasn’t heard of Hands and after your supposed 29 years service, that would mean you had to have made flag rank.

So, your ignorance is on full display. Your choices are:
a) respond because you have an over-powering juvenile need to have the last word
or
b) let it go and let thinking people decide for themselves if Hands is a made up character of no consequence as you allege.


18 posted on 06/16/2014 8:04:11 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: danamco

See Post 18.

He is real and he is a patriot and he wrote it. Oh, and he does know what he is talking about.


19 posted on 06/16/2014 8:05:07 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Hulka

It does appear that you’ve flushed out another sleeper goon working for the criminal regime. Good job, and thank you for your service to The Republic.


20 posted on 06/16/2014 8:14:14 AM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: MHGinTN

Thank you, sir.


21 posted on 06/16/2014 8:17:12 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Hulka

“You should make sure you know what you are talking about when you attack. In this case, you are very foolish.
...
you are wrong to imply it is made up ... (Or at the very least, be noble and let him know someone is using his name).

...
Are you a fighter pilot? No, you are not. You have no idea what you are talking about, neither do your ‘friends.’

If they haven’t heard of him it is because they are truly not in that world. ...”
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
How precious. The fighter pilotry wails in dismay if someone dares to point out the Emperor ain’t wearing much.

The fighter mafia has always believed it’s the center of the known universe. May other members of the forum pardon my yawns; it’s precisely what I came to expect. What remains unexplained is why so many who are not fighter pilots continue to worship at their feet. When one attempts to divine what virtue lies in such self-abasement, the imagination balks.

I know more about every fighter system and subsystem that has been in inventory since 1960, than I really care to. Lots of stuff I cannot forget, much as I might wish.

Don’t know what Hulka’s background is, but I’d give odds that he doesn’t hold multiple advanced degrees in aero engineering, propulsion engineering, electrical engineering, explosives engineering, interior and exterior ballistics, survivability/vulnerability analysis, computer science, digital signal processing, control theory, radar engineering, communications engineering, data collection, stochastic analysis, and other fields of study I cannot succinctly summarize just now. Perhaps he can bone up on a few of the basics in a couple of those areas, and then tell us why he deserves the credibility he’s already laid claim to.

Hulka has made a common error: conflating battlefield prowess with good character. And with the ability to lead. He breezily assumes items Two and Three follow item One as night follows day.

I concede the truth of Hulka’s guess: I am not a fighter pilot. His response is hardly unprecedented; I confess I’ve always been mildly amused that the fighter pilotry - believing themselves so greatly superior to all others at all times, in all circumstances and all venues - react with an outrage so predictable it’s become tiresome, when one of us lesser mortals fails to bend the knee.

If we are so unimportant, how could they deign to care what we think?

From the early 1980s until the late 1990s, duty demanded my presence at a great many events and activities that involved fighter pilots (plus a pretty fair cross section of all USAF technical specialties, our opposite numbers from every other US DoD service component, every intelligence organization in the national security establishment, and fellow functionaries from a number of allied nations).

Working with fighter pilots was unavoidable much of the time. I did so on a daily basis, for weeks on end. They demanded the most deference, the most attention, for the least justifiable reasons, even as they brought less value to the table than anyone else.

Bad enough at first blush. More disturbingly, the conclusion I reached - at great length and with more than a little reluctance - was that the rest of us could never be sure when a fighter pilot was lying, and when he wasn’t. I witnessed fighter pilots perpetrating a sufficient number of dishonorable acts, that I now judge them guilty until proven innocent.

So it does not really matter if Col Handley exists or not. Still less does it matter what I think, minor cog that I was. Hulka is free to bluster as much as it pleases him.

Abjurations to “be noble” merely sound silly. Wouldn’t do any good if I tried; I’d simply get run over, backstabbed, cheated, stonewalled, and lied to. Again.


22 posted on 06/16/2014 7:49:51 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: schurmann; Hulka
"So it does not really matter if Col Handley exists or not."

You had the opportunity to be quiet.
Unfortunately, you just don't have the ability.
But, it does make it easier to render an opinion on everything you've posted so far;and everything you will ever post.
23 posted on 06/16/2014 8:24:56 PM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum -- "The Taliban is inside the building")
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To: schurmann; Hulka
Don’t know what Hulka’s background is, but I’d give odds that he doesn’t hold multiple advanced degrees in aero engineering, propulsion engineering, electrical engineering, explosives engineering, interior and exterior ballistics, survivability/vulnerability analysis, computer science, digital signal processing, control theory, radar engineering, communications engineering, data collection, stochastic analysis, and other fields of study I cannot succinctly summarize just now. Perhaps he can bone up on a few of the basics in a couple of those areas, and then tell us why he deserves the credibility he’s already laid claim to.

I see a lots of degrees posted here. Are they all the degrees that you possess?

Who says Hulka is a HE??

How do we really finding out the truth on this matter???

24 posted on 06/17/2014 5:34:29 PM PDT by danamco (-)
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To: danamco

“...I see a lots of degrees posted here. Are they all the degrees that you possess?

Who says Hulka is a HE??

How do we really finding out the truth on this matter???”

Not me; I’m a long way from the stuff of legend, even in my own mind (something that cannot be said, alas, in favor of the fighter weenies). Earning the single advanced degree I do hold (operations research - applied math, broadly speaking) was challenging enough.

I was, though, privileged to work with folks who had performed advanced study in every area I mentioned, plus at least as many more I only remembered after posting the partial list. Getting them all to take up the same compass heading and move forward as a group was a duty somewhat less edifying. Though it became rewarding. After a fashion.

Nobody in the forum knows what Hulka is, gender-wise. And there are no good gender-neutral pronouns; I have at times attempted to introduce “heesh” (coined by the late Poul Anderson) as a catch-all but it never takes root.

Alert readers will note the Hulka mentioned the A-10. So I went with the odds and made a guess about “he.” Females have been working their way into the fighter pilotry, but they are not yet present in large numbers.

As far as “really finding out the truth,” I fear that most of the rest of the forum is going to be left to their own devices. I’ve no way to convey the experiences I endured, through a generation and more (assuming the various authorities would even grant me permission to talk). It’s arguable, one surmises, that all of it added up to an attitude, and a series of hunches engendered by a set of professional prejudices, that that long string of experiences induced me to take on.

“The truth” is probably an oversimplification anyway. There are more than a few out there. The only thing they’ve in common is, they’re not terribly pleasant.


25 posted on 06/17/2014 6:27:47 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: Tainan

“You had the opportunity to be quiet.
Unfortunately, you just don’t have the ability.
But, it does make it easier to render an opinion on everything you’ve posted so far;and everything you will ever post.”

Which brings to mind two fundamental truths about the fighter pilotry:

1. Q: How do you know if a fighter pilot has dropped by at your party? A: Don’t worry. He’ll tell you.

2. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the average fighter pilot is perfectly capable of harboring feelings of kindness, compassion, and respect. The only thing is, those feelings never involve anyone but himself.

It is a source of amusement that fighter pilots - beings superior to all, in all endeavors, at all times and in all places - possess such fragile egos that they cannot tolerate so much as the first throat-clearings, before someone dares to voice any dissent.

If us lesser mortals were in truth so lacking in significance, so wrong-headed, how could our overlords bother to care what we think?


26 posted on 06/17/2014 6:59:15 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: Tainan

“You had the opportunity to be quiet.
Unfortunately, you just don’t have the ability...”

Freepers pride themselves for preferring truth - however uncongenial - over falsehoods.

So if any forum members are of a mind to discover some truth they’ve not yet noticed (instead of congratulating themselves on their insight and rectitude, never noticing the wider horizons all about), I will add this:

USAF continues to devolve thanks to a coterie that most love to worship, to name just a few: Merrill Anthony McPeak, Jack Chain, George Lee Butler, Ron Fogleman, John Jumper, TM Moseley, Mark Welch, Robin Olds and Ron Keys.

Most worship in vain. Things have declined, from excellence to swaggering and cronyism.

The jury is still out on Norton Schwartz and JM Loh.

And yes, I have known most personally. Norty Schwartz and Rowe Stayton lived in the room next door, my first academic semester as a cadet.

Unless the self-appointed moral arbiters on this forum can say something remotely similar, I respectfully submit they might profit from studying up.


27 posted on 06/19/2014 12:45:18 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: schurmann; Hulka
yabba yabba...I was Army, 75th Ranger, Airborne.
I could give diddily about jet jockeys other than the fact that they did O.K. by me as a grunt on the ground.

This is your second (2nd) attempt at resurrecting a theory you seem to have embedded in you regarding...well...it's hard to decipher exactly what it is you are on about.

So, in conclusion, lets just say..."Thank you for sharing that with me. Do you have a newsletter to which one may subscribe for further updates on your views and opinions?"
28 posted on 06/20/2014 3:52:06 AM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum -- "The Taliban is inside the building")
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To: Tainan

“...I was Army, 75th Ranger, Airborne.
I could give diddily about jet jockeys other than the fact that they did O.K. by me as a grunt on the ground.

... second attempt at resurrecting a theory ...”

My admiration for US Army Airborne training stands second to none: slogged my way through the program in July 1972, coming away with the highest respect for Army NCOs and their methods.

But Tainan treads a familiar path: “I was a footsoldier and you were not. Because of that, I was braver than you. Therefore my notions deserve more attention, more respect, greater precedence.”

The relative prowess - and relative courage - of sundry components can be argued endlessly, but not a single word from that debate can tell us what each can do.

This isn’t about heroism. It’s about effectiveness.

Military forces sent aircraft aloft to protect footsoldiers. If Tainan chooses to view that truth as an insult, it’s time to study up. Again.

Without airplanes to protect them, footsoldiers are not much more than targets. Not a theory; simple fact. If I failed to explicate as much, I beg forgiveness from the forum.

It was true 100 years ago (see Battle of the Marne, Aug-Sep 1914). Commanders realized - not cheerfully - they couldn’t hide from enemy eyes, if those eyes were peering down from the air.

Aviators (not yet senior enough to carry clout with a leadership laboring under its own ego problems) were there to help, and some realized an edge might be gained, if airplanes could carry a machine gun aloft and clear the skies of enemy scouts.

And thus fighter aviation came to be.

Its concepts and execution did not spring full-grown from anyone’s forehead, but dawned on combatants only dimly, the most primitive recognition of reality. It advanced, tit for tat, centimeter by centimeter, at times painfully. But it was a secondary capability and remains so in 2014.

Never in doubt were the egos of the fighter pilots.

In the American military, their fortunes rose and fell until they contrived to topple USAF leadership in 1992. And air power has been on the decline ever since.

As a group, fighter pilots are without honor. Before respondents bridle, please read this comment by CDR “Willie” Driscoll (USN, ret): “If you’re a fighter pilot and you’re not cheating, you’re not doing your job.”

CDR Driscoll was an F-4 backseater for Randy “Duke” Cunningham, noted USN fighter pilot in SEA, though he is chiefly remembered these days for unseemly behavior as a US Rep in the House (for the San Diego area, I think).

So what Tainan and many other posters have misidentified as a “theory”, is this:

1. Fighter pilots are capable of great deeds, but their skills are of a low order.

2. They pride themselves on dominating all others, not on leading, and are competition junkies. They obsess on beating all comers, to the neglect of all else. A propensity of occasional use in action; dangerous when they can only find competitors among members of their own service, joint services, combined allies, or countrymen.

3. Therefore, the farther we keep them from the levers of power, the better.


29 posted on 06/22/2014 5:54:54 AM PDT by schurmann
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To: Tainan

“...I was Army, 75th Ranger, Airborne.
I could give diddily about jet jockeys other than the fact that they did O.K. by me as a grunt on the ground.

... second attempt at resurrecting a theory ...”

My admiration for US Army Airborne training stands second to none: slogged my way through the program in July 1972, coming away with the highest respect for Army NCOs and their methods.

But Tainan treads a familiar path: “I was a footsoldier and you were not. Because of that, I was braver than you. Therefore my notions deserve more attention, more respect, greater precedence.”

The relative prowess - and relative courage - of sundry components can be argued endlessly, but not a single word from that debate can tell us what each can do.

This isn’t about heroism. It’s about effectiveness.

Military forces sent aircraft aloft to protect footsoldiers. If Tainan chooses to view that truth as an insult, it’s time to study up. Again.

Without airplanes to protect them, footsoldiers are not much more than targets. Not a theory; simple fact. If I failed to explicate as much, I beg forgiveness from the forum.

It was true 100 years ago (see Battle of the Marne, Aug-Sep 1914). Commanders realized - not cheerfully - they couldn’t hide from enemy eyes, if those eyes were peering down from the air.

Aviators (not yet senior enough to carry clout with a leadership laboring under its own ego problems) were there to help, and some realized an edge might be gained, if airplanes could carry a machine gun aloft and clear the skies of enemy scouts.

And thus fighter aviation came to be.

Its concepts and execution did not spring full-grown from anyone’s forehead, but dawned on combatants only dimly, the most primitive recognition of reality. It advanced, tit for tat, centimeter by centimeter, at times painfully. But it was a secondary capability and remains so in 2014.

Never in doubt were the egos of the fighter pilots.

In the American military, their fortunes rose and fell until they contrived to topple USAF leadership in 1992. And air power has been on the decline ever since.

As a group, fighter pilots are without honor. Before respondents bridle, please read this comment by CDR “Willie” Driscoll (USN, ret): “If you’re a fighter pilot and you’re not cheating, you’re not doing your job.”

CDR Driscoll was an F-4 backseater for Randy “Duke” Cunningham, noted USN fighter pilot in SEA, though he is chiefly remembered these days for unseemly behavior as a US Rep in the House (for the San Diego area, I think).

So what Tainan and many other posters have misidentified as a “theory”, is this:

1. Fighter pilots are capable of great deeds, but their skills are of a low order.

2. They pride themselves on dominating all others, not on leading, and are competition junkies. They obsess on beating all comers, to the neglect of all else. A propensity of occasional use in action; dangerous when they can only find competitors among members of their own service, joint services, combined allies, or countrymen.

3. Therefore, the farther we keep them from the levers of power, the better.


30 posted on 06/22/2014 5:54:54 AM PDT by schurmann
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