Skip to comments.MH17: Pinning Everything on Putin Is Too Easy
Posted on 07/22/2014 2:04:20 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
The British newspapers, like the British government, are pinning the blame for the Malaysian Airlines disaster on Putin. Most Americans, whether Democrats or Republicans, would see things the way these UK headlines do:
"Putin is a pariah he must be treated as such"
"Britain and America implicate Russia in Flight MH17 missile attack"
"Two British families killed by 'Putin the terrorist'"
And over a column written by Prime Minister David Cameron, this headline: "This is an outrage made in Moscow"
However, some well-informed conservatives in Britain are pointing the finger for the war in Ukraine not at Putin, but at the empire builders of the European Union.
Peter Hitchens, a leading British conservative commentator, summed up the argument in today's Mail on Sunday
" those who began the current war in Ukraine the direct cause of the frightful murder of so many innocents on Flight MH17 on Thursday really have no excuse. There is no doubt about who they were. In any war, the aggressor is the one who makes the first move into neutral or disputed territory."
"And that aggressor was the European Union, which rivals China as the world's most expansionist power, swallowing countries the way performing seals swallow fish (16 gulped down since 1995)."
"Ignoring repeated and increasingly urgent warnings from Moscow, the EU backed by the USA sought to bring Ukraine into its orbit....
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
I find the statements made from a lot of leaders seem like an attempt to sound tough for the cameras and yet there is little to no action from them. If Putin is somehow directly complicit in the taking down of this plane then pin him well and truly to a wall and shoot him but let us see proof. Western countries should be making it a priority to secure the area - Tell Putin they are bringing in Forensic groups accompanied by armed personnel and that he is to tell those currently there to withdraw 10kms from the area! Tell them his own team of forensic people should also be sent so that they can see all is above board.
How are they going to “pin him to a wall and shoot him” when he is the leader of the largest country on Earth? Did we shoot the Red Chinese leader after Tiananmen Square? Of course not. Mr. Obama doesn’t have the stones to invade the Bundy Ranch or Murietta, so what does Mr. Putin have to fear from him?
I don’t think Putin intended for a civilian airliner to get shot down, but he did intend to cause violence and chaos in Ukraine and it just so happens the plane got shot down as a result. Collateral damage to Putin’s overall goals in the region.
Discretion is the better part of valor?
Peter Hitchens has in effect given unlawful irredentism and hegemony his approval while denying the right of people and their nations to govern their affairs independently. Such behavior disqualifies Peter Hitchens as a conservative of values for freedom and liberty.
Yes, I’m a little surprised at what he said too. I’m no fan of the EU, it was a stupid idea and the Euro is clearly a disaster.
However, they haven’t invaded any nations, they’ve haven’t stuck a gun in anyone’s face, so comparing what they’ve done to the actions by Putin is just stupid.
Putin is a sc*mbag for accidentally shooting down a commercial airline, but at least he isn’t giving a written invitation to terrorists to hijack one like Obama is “Oh no need to check out illegals just throw them on the plane. What is your name Sir? Mohammed Hernandez? Oh go right in board sir, oh of course you can take that bulky backpack with you.” It’s going to be interesting to see if Congress *still* sits on its hands when a US airliner is blown out of the sky over Texas. Anyone who doesn’t think Islamic rads aren’t taking advantage of Obamas open welcome is out of their mind, you couldn’t pay me enough to fly today.
There is no way Putin would benefit from killing MH17. Of course, it's obvious his Ukrainian separatist clients are indeed the responsible party. But credit for civilian dead bodies strewn through fields doesn't benefit them, either.
Western countries should be making it a priority to secure the area - Tell Putin they are bringing in Forensic groups accompanied by armed personnel and that he is to tell those currently there to withdraw 10kms from the area! Tell them his own team of forensic people should also be sent so that they can see all is above board.
What for? What do they hope to demonstrate? What 150 pounds of HE can do to a B777 at altitude up close? That's a forgone conclusion!
The forensic issues are around exactly how the missile(s) came to be launched. The answers do not lie in the wreckage of MH17 or its black boxes.
what do we do? Start WW III? Is it worth 70 million lives or more? Is it worth 12 cities? Clearly something needs to be done—its more a job for talkers than warriors. Ukraine must be settled—the borders reset. Peace is needed for all—Russia and Ukraine. I fear Obama doesn’t have the stones needed to make a lasting impact—Putin may have something on him.
It’s a rhetorical argument - they are not going to do it because a) he probably didn’t have anything to with it directly b) they probably could not prove it even if he did. Yet they are beating their chests like they know he did and yet we all know they are not going to do something about it.
cynwoody They do need to get forensic people in there a) because the remains need to be respected b) because you never know what you might find out with a detailed and proper investigation (why do you think the militia are endeavoring to fully control the crash scene?) c) because it would have actually shown some real cojones rather than the false bravado currently being shown.
I have no doubt Putin DID NOT directly order that MH17 be shot down and that the shooting was caused by someone in the rogue separatist group, however, I could be wrong.
With that said, I have great doubt ANYTHING of consequence will be done UNLESS there is a direct and definite connection to the actual shooter.
Investigators are already in there. The bodies on the way to the Netherlands and black boxes returned to Malaysia.
It seems American investigators are frowned upon, for obvious reasons. There is no trust between the two parties that are backing, but pretend they are not, each side.
If one looks at the facts already well established, the case for Russian guilt is compelling, both as to the shoot down and as to Russia engaging in aggression and acts of war against Ukraine. Russia's failure to make the evidence available and offer a credible argument for her innocence is also telling.
The prize at issue is the future of Ukraine. We know what its people want. Reliable polling and the record of election promises all indicate that the Ukrainian public overwhelming wants to be free of Russian domination, to affiliate with Europe, and to reform their weak economy and corrupt political system along European lines. The US and Europe would be foolish in the extreme not to support those objectives, which would do much to protect and solidify Europe's eastern flank and expand her common trade area.
The reason for the recent overthrow of the Ukrainian government was that, under Russian threats and bribery, it did an about face and refused to sign an EU affiliation agreement that it had negotiated and agreed to sign during its election campaign. The resulting Maidan demonstrations in the capital of Kiev were large, peaceful, and determined, enough so as to begin to collapse the legitimacy of the government.
Russian secret police, special forces, and paramilitary -- apparently answering to Russian military intelligence and then to Putin -- were sent in to break the Maidan demonstrations. As Ukrainian police attempted to clear the demonstrators from the government quarter, snipers began shooting to kill from government buildings. Dozens of demonstrators were killed by shots to the head or chest. That is the beginning of and the worst of the violence complained of by Western critics and falsely attributed to the Ukrainian Maidan demonstrators, who were in fact the victims of unjustified and brutal violence.
The Maidan demonstrators included Ukrainian Army veterans who organized parties to aid the wounded and clear the buildings that were being used by Russian snipers. As that effort progressed, many in the Ukrainian police and army went over to the demonstrators. The Maidan demonstrators generated little in the way of armed force and did little violence.
At the risk of being surrounded and eventually killed or captured, the Russian snipers and affiliated units were withdrawn. The leading figures of the Ukrainian government then resigned or fled, and a new, pro-Western interim government was selected by the parliament. This was followed by well-administered national elections that installed a reformist, pro-Western government.
Of course, these facts and the desire of Ukraine's people to affiliate with the West and to live in freedom do not get to the heart of what the critics are about: the appeasement of Putin and Russia based on the belief that doing so avoids risk and expense. Yet Germany, Poland, and Europe seem to recognize that their freedom and security are best secured by supporting Ukrainian freedom and its pro-Western government and people. Sadly, as if Churchill had never lived, there are British conservatives today who prefer appeasement as a matter of principle.
I tend to agree with the headline.
The shooting down of a commercial airliner was not in Putin’s interest.
The west’s faux leaders (Obama is exhibit A), however, degenerating into spiraling debt, perversion of morality, and abject failure are EAGER TO DIVERT ATTENTION.
Just ask: would the West be this upset over MUSLIMS killing people? Because 300 people die at the hands of ISIS every week in Iraq.
b) because you never know what you might find out with a detailed and proper investigation (why do you think the militia are endeavoring to fully control the crash scene?)
The local militia are befuddled and throwing their weight around, not realizing how such behavior undermines their cause. LOL!
The difference is that they did this by offering membership freely to Ukraine while the Russian-backed forces there were compelling Ukraine into its orbit by force.
The fact that this occurred immediately after the US imposed sanctions on the Russians by freezing the assets of their military and energy companies lends credence to the belief that it was a response to it.
It is possible that our intelligence knows this to be true and that is why the uproar in Washington and London —
Well Said —
Please post this on a regular basis here on these threads for the benefit of those with short memories:
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