Skip to comments.MH17: Pinning Everything on Putin Is Too Easy
Posted on 07/22/2014 2:04:20 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
The British newspapers, like the British government, are pinning the blame for the Malaysian Airlines disaster on Putin. Most Americans, whether Democrats or Republicans, would see things the way these UK headlines do:
"Putin is a pariah he must be treated as such"
"Britain and America implicate Russia in Flight MH17 missile attack"
"Two British families killed by 'Putin the terrorist'"
And over a column written by Prime Minister David Cameron, this headline: "This is an outrage made in Moscow"
However, some well-informed conservatives in Britain are pointing the finger for the war in Ukraine not at Putin, but at the empire builders of the European Union.
Peter Hitchens, a leading British conservative commentator, summed up the argument in today's Mail on Sunday
" those who began the current war in Ukraine the direct cause of the frightful murder of so many innocents on Flight MH17 on Thursday really have no excuse. There is no doubt about who they were. In any war, the aggressor is the one who makes the first move into neutral or disputed territory."
"And that aggressor was the European Union, which rivals China as the world's most expansionist power, swallowing countries the way performing seals swallow fish (16 gulped down since 1995)."
"Ignoring repeated and increasingly urgent warnings from Moscow, the EU backed by the USA sought to bring Ukraine into its orbit....
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
I find the statements made from a lot of leaders seem like an attempt to sound tough for the cameras and yet there is little to no action from them. If Putin is somehow directly complicit in the taking down of this plane then pin him well and truly to a wall and shoot him but let us see proof. Western countries should be making it a priority to secure the area - Tell Putin they are bringing in Forensic groups accompanied by armed personnel and that he is to tell those currently there to withdraw 10kms from the area! Tell them his own team of forensic people should also be sent so that they can see all is above board.
How are they going to “pin him to a wall and shoot him” when he is the leader of the largest country on Earth? Did we shoot the Red Chinese leader after Tiananmen Square? Of course not. Mr. Obama doesn’t have the stones to invade the Bundy Ranch or Murietta, so what does Mr. Putin have to fear from him?
I don’t think Putin intended for a civilian airliner to get shot down, but he did intend to cause violence and chaos in Ukraine and it just so happens the plane got shot down as a result. Collateral damage to Putin’s overall goals in the region.
Discretion is the better part of valor?
Peter Hitchens has in effect given unlawful irredentism and hegemony his approval while denying the right of people and their nations to govern their affairs independently. Such behavior disqualifies Peter Hitchens as a conservative of values for freedom and liberty.
Yes, I’m a little surprised at what he said too. I’m no fan of the EU, it was a stupid idea and the Euro is clearly a disaster.
However, they haven’t invaded any nations, they’ve haven’t stuck a gun in anyone’s face, so comparing what they’ve done to the actions by Putin is just stupid.
Putin is a sc*mbag for accidentally shooting down a commercial airline, but at least he isn’t giving a written invitation to terrorists to hijack one like Obama is “Oh no need to check out illegals just throw them on the plane. What is your name Sir? Mohammed Hernandez? Oh go right in board sir, oh of course you can take that bulky backpack with you.” It’s going to be interesting to see if Congress *still* sits on its hands when a US airliner is blown out of the sky over Texas. Anyone who doesn’t think Islamic rads aren’t taking advantage of Obamas open welcome is out of their mind, you couldn’t pay me enough to fly today.
There is no way Putin would benefit from killing MH17. Of course, it's obvious his Ukrainian separatist clients are indeed the responsible party. But credit for civilian dead bodies strewn through fields doesn't benefit them, either.
Western countries should be making it a priority to secure the area - Tell Putin they are bringing in Forensic groups accompanied by armed personnel and that he is to tell those currently there to withdraw 10kms from the area! Tell them his own team of forensic people should also be sent so that they can see all is above board.
What for? What do they hope to demonstrate? What 150 pounds of HE can do to a B777 at altitude up close? That's a forgone conclusion!
The forensic issues are around exactly how the missile(s) came to be launched. The answers do not lie in the wreckage of MH17 or its black boxes.
what do we do? Start WW III? Is it worth 70 million lives or more? Is it worth 12 cities? Clearly something needs to be done—its more a job for talkers than warriors. Ukraine must be settled—the borders reset. Peace is needed for all—Russia and Ukraine. I fear Obama doesn’t have the stones needed to make a lasting impact—Putin may have something on him.
It’s a rhetorical argument - they are not going to do it because a) he probably didn’t have anything to with it directly b) they probably could not prove it even if he did. Yet they are beating their chests like they know he did and yet we all know they are not going to do something about it.
cynwoody They do need to get forensic people in there a) because the remains need to be respected b) because you never know what you might find out with a detailed and proper investigation (why do you think the militia are endeavoring to fully control the crash scene?) c) because it would have actually shown some real cojones rather than the false bravado currently being shown.
I have no doubt Putin DID NOT directly order that MH17 be shot down and that the shooting was caused by someone in the rogue separatist group, however, I could be wrong.
With that said, I have great doubt ANYTHING of consequence will be done UNLESS there is a direct and definite connection to the actual shooter.
Investigators are already in there. The bodies on the way to the Netherlands and black boxes returned to Malaysia.
It seems American investigators are frowned upon, for obvious reasons. There is no trust between the two parties that are backing, but pretend they are not, each side.
If one looks at the facts already well established, the case for Russian guilt is compelling, both as to the shoot down and as to Russia engaging in aggression and acts of war against Ukraine. Russia's failure to make the evidence available and offer a credible argument for her innocence is also telling.
The prize at issue is the future of Ukraine. We know what its people want. Reliable polling and the record of election promises all indicate that the Ukrainian public overwhelming wants to be free of Russian domination, to affiliate with Europe, and to reform their weak economy and corrupt political system along European lines. The US and Europe would be foolish in the extreme not to support those objectives, which would do much to protect and solidify Europe's eastern flank and expand her common trade area.
The reason for the recent overthrow of the Ukrainian government was that, under Russian threats and bribery, it did an about face and refused to sign an EU affiliation agreement that it had negotiated and agreed to sign during its election campaign. The resulting Maidan demonstrations in the capital of Kiev were large, peaceful, and determined, enough so as to begin to collapse the legitimacy of the government.
Russian secret police, special forces, and paramilitary -- apparently answering to Russian military intelligence and then to Putin -- were sent in to break the Maidan demonstrations. As Ukrainian police attempted to clear the demonstrators from the government quarter, snipers began shooting to kill from government buildings. Dozens of demonstrators were killed by shots to the head or chest. That is the beginning of and the worst of the violence complained of by Western critics and falsely attributed to the Ukrainian Maidan demonstrators, who were in fact the victims of unjustified and brutal violence.
The Maidan demonstrators included Ukrainian Army veterans who organized parties to aid the wounded and clear the buildings that were being used by Russian snipers. As that effort progressed, many in the Ukrainian police and army went over to the demonstrators. The Maidan demonstrators generated little in the way of armed force and did little violence.
At the risk of being surrounded and eventually killed or captured, the Russian snipers and affiliated units were withdrawn. The leading figures of the Ukrainian government then resigned or fled, and a new, pro-Western interim government was selected by the parliament. This was followed by well-administered national elections that installed a reformist, pro-Western government.
Of course, these facts and the desire of Ukraine's people to affiliate with the West and to live in freedom do not get to the heart of what the critics are about: the appeasement of Putin and Russia based on the belief that doing so avoids risk and expense. Yet Germany, Poland, and Europe seem to recognize that their freedom and security are best secured by supporting Ukrainian freedom and its pro-Western government and people. Sadly, as if Churchill had never lived, there are British conservatives today who prefer appeasement as a matter of principle.
I tend to agree with the headline.
The shooting down of a commercial airliner was not in Putin’s interest.
The west’s faux leaders (Obama is exhibit A), however, degenerating into spiraling debt, perversion of morality, and abject failure are EAGER TO DIVERT ATTENTION.
Just ask: would the West be this upset over MUSLIMS killing people? Because 300 people die at the hands of ISIS every week in Iraq.
b) because you never know what you might find out with a detailed and proper investigation (why do you think the militia are endeavoring to fully control the crash scene?)
The local militia are befuddled and throwing their weight around, not realizing how such behavior undermines their cause. LOL!
The difference is that they did this by offering membership freely to Ukraine while the Russian-backed forces there were compelling Ukraine into its orbit by force.
The fact that this occurred immediately after the US imposed sanctions on the Russians by freezing the assets of their military and energy companies lends credence to the belief that it was a response to it.
It is possible that our intelligence knows this to be true and that is why the uproar in Washington and London —
Well Said —
Please post this on a regular basis here on these threads for the benefit of those with short memories:
More basis in your comment than the one above...
In case you missed it, affiliating and living in peace in the West from here on out is a joke. Look at your own country. How long is the US going to hold on to the last vestiges of our freedom? The time is running out. Ukraine gets no “freedom” either way.
Democracy is not freedom. So what you get to vote when the choices you have are cut from the same cloth?
Good post my FRiend.
“Democracy is not freedom”
Obama is the poster child for this statement. How could rubes vote for him TWICE!
In 1988 the USS Vincennes, a guided missile cruiser, entered Iranian territorial waters and spotted an aircraft that it thought was an Iranian F-14 fighter plane. However, it was actually a civilian Iran Air Airbus A300, flying over Iran’s territorial waters on its regular route from Tehran to Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. The Vincennes fired a surface-to-air missile that destroyed the plane, killing all 290 onboard. Under a 1996 agreement at the International Court of Justice, the U.S. agreed to pay Iran $61.8 million.
And likely with our weapons........
Then there's the rebels in Syria which we support that are killing Christians. Not a peep.
The EU with US help destabilised the Ukraine and now we see the consequences.
Ukraine is a democratic mess, the Western half with the largest population wants to join the west, but the Eastern half does not, hence the problem....The best solution would be to split it in half.
I’m all for letting the EU and Russia hammer this one out on their own with no input from us. We have our own problems to deal with.
Another fact not reported: BUK missiles shoot thousands of particles to destroy the target. On site there was no evidence of this...perhaps the missile was of US manufacture?
Good post, explains the media’s coordinated headlines here and in UK
Despite the best efforts of the Russian forces to tamper with the crash site, there remains plenty of evidence that a BUK was the cause of the destruction of MH17. Parts from the plane show multiple hits from the missile’s warhead particles.
Thus Ronald Reagan's determination to defeat Communism and free Eastern Europe from it was yoked to a determination to renew American freedom domestically. Indeed, for Reagan and his closest supporters, cutting the regulatory and tax burdens on Americans and supporting Solidarity in Poland were both essential to the great cause of freedom. In Britain in the same era, Margaret Thatcher was of a similar frame of mind.
Rejecting lessons drawn from history they ought to know well, some prominent British Conservatives advocate appeasement of Putin and Russia in foreign policy and political defeatism at home instead of embracing the challenges and benefits of advocating freedom as a cause and aiming at its comprehensive revival. If nothing else, they risk persistent haunting and thorough and well deserved handbaggings from the angry spirit of Margaret Thatcher.
Obama advocates freedom nowhere. He subjugates people to who he picks as their leader. Like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Those people thought they were going to get freedom. Boy, were they fooled.Obama still meddles in their business to this day. The corruption is unmistakable. Those people may think they are going to get freedom, but they aren’t going to get freedom.
I have no problem promoting freedom. I wish we had a government that did that here in the US. Instead, they seek to subjugate us to them.
The result was a popular uprising that swept the Egyptian military into power, with retired General Al-Sisi then elected as President. For the average Egyptian, that provided a restoration of law and order, for Egypt's persecuted Coptic Christians it meant a curbing of Muslim Brotherhood inspired mob attacks against them, and for Israel, it meant a shutdown of the Hamas smuggling tunnels into Gaza. Those are all good things that make the Al-Sisi government more compatible with freedom and Western interests than the former Muslim Brotherhood government.
Sadly Russia is still in possession of over 8000 nuclear weapons, so indeed all out war is not an option. How about we designate Russia as an official adversary and forbid US companies from doing business with Russia? Do all we can to isolate Russia. Kick them out of the G8. Their demographic suicide will doom them as a nation soon but in the meantime....
I never said that the Muslim Brotherhood is on the side of freedom. The Muslim brotherhood are Obama’s guys. The people there managed to defy Obama’s choice for them. Egypt hates Obama. Can’t blame them at all.
I would hope Ukraine doesn’t want this fate either.
Better late than never!
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