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"Coronary By Cop": Should Police Follow Suspects' Orders, Or The Other Way Around?
ClashDaily.com ^ | 7/21/14 | Donald Joy

Posted on 07/22/2014 11:44:48 AM PDT by IChing

Hmm, let’s see, a 6′ 4″, 400-lb career criminal–with 31 prior arrests on a variety of charges ranging from drug possession to assault–adamantly refuses to be taken into custody by police who are investigating yet another an alleged crime by him (while he is out on bail facing 3 other charges), and he starts actively resisting when they try to handcuff him..

Then, in the ensuing struggle, he has a heart attack while being subdued by multiple officers, one of them using what many cops posting in online forums are insisting is not actually the form of choke-hold banned for use by the NYPD, but merely a quick take-down restraint technique, which protects the throat and windpipe while moving the subject to the prone position by steering the head–and thereby the body–in that direction.

The suspect, chronic street hustler and asthmatic diabetic Eric Garner, loses consciousness while being restrained on the sidewalk, and is transported to the hospital by paramedics where he is pronounced dead on arrival.

The next day, syndicated radio host Michael Savage–just as he did in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case last year–loudly bellows blatantly dubious personal presumptions about the incident (such as, “he wasn’t doing anything!”) at the top of his program, and the top of his lungs, and millions of blindly rabid cop-haters pile on in countless other distorted forums.

Ignoring facts such as the extensive criminal history and overwhelming size of the subject, and other factors which point more to it being an accidental death (due to the suspect’s grave health issues and non-compliance) than a homicide caused by rogue cops, the howling masses all scream for the cops to be fired and/or charged with various crimes.

How would Savage, or any other supposed impartial party who wasn’t there, know what Garner was or wasn’t doing, during any amount of time prior to the video?

Remember, this Eric Garner incident comes hot on the heels of a 23-year-old rookie NYC-area cop being recently murdered in cold blood by another career criminal, whose wife announced on video, at a community event memorializing and glorifying the cop-killer, that she wished her husband had killed more cops.

There’s no denying that there are racial dynamics being brought to bear, appropriately or not, in this and countless other incidents having to do with crime and police work.

However, even left-wing New York City mayor Bill de Blasio went on record to clarify a crucial aspect of the matter saying, “Not wanting to be arrested does not grant an individual the right to resist arrest, nor does it free the officers of the obligation to make the arrest.”

What do you think would happen, to society and to the overall effectiveness of law enforcement, if every time an actively resisting suspect protested loudly that they couldn’t breathe, or otherwise demanded that the cops needed to let off and let up on them while attempting to take them into custody, and got their way? What if the police just took their word for it, and let the perp call the shots?

Eric Garner’s death was avoidable, that’s for sure. Of course, I wasn’t there either, but based on Garner’s long rap sheet of priors, I give the cops at the scene the benefit of the doubt as to having probable cause to arrest him for illegally selling cigarettes.

Furthermore, it was Garner’s choice to use the tactics of protest, and loudly claim that he was being harassed by the cops while putting up his hands to fight them off as they tried to cuff him–he caused the situation which resulted in his experiencing cardiac arrest, because he resisted arrest instead of letting the court (where he was headed this October anyway, to face 3 previous charges) sort it all out.

The politically realistic outcome of this, I expect, is that the officer who used the controversial take-down will be thrown under the bus for it, since it is close enough to a choke-hold that even the police union won’t be able to save his job from the seething mobs demanding his scalp.

While it’s true that these days we are being exposed to increasing amounts of evidence of police brutality and abuse of authority by badge-heavy cops across the land, especially with the proliferation of cell phone recordings and the surfeit of internet videos on social media, nonetheless we have to weigh all known factors, and consider a myriad of unknown factors carefully when confronted with recorded incidents such as the Eric Garner case, and the recent roadway apprehension of a black female wherein the white male officer punched her repeatedly in order to subdue her. Such videos contain highly provocative but often also very abbreviated information, imagery, and actions, which may or may not allow viewers to reach accurate conclusions about what really took place, and especially why.

As I said, I’m giving the cops in this case the benefit of the doubt here, for now. Based on what I’ve stated, I think you should too–and I’m as serious as a heart attack when I command you not to dance to Al Sharpton’s blaring megaphone when it comes to this, or any other episode.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: chokehold; danielpantaleo; ericgarner; newyorkcity; nypd; police; statenisland
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I suppose the NYPD should also ban the use of tasers, batons, pepper spray, fists, feet, elbows, handcuffs, firearms, or any other means by which an officer might have to resort in order to subdue perps, right? Because the perp might be unhealthy, a cardiac case waiting to happen, etc., right?
1 posted on 07/22/2014 11:44:49 AM PDT by IChing
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To: IChing

(due to the suspect’s grave health issues and non-compliance)

Comply or die!


2 posted on 07/22/2014 11:48:35 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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To: IChing

Sorry Charlie....I don’t care what he was in trouble for...

I’ve seen the video...

He clearly let the officers know he was in breathing distress and they clearly ignored him and let him lay there and die...no one even attempted CPR when he clearly wasn’t breathing.

Negligence at the VERY least.


3 posted on 07/22/2014 11:58:06 AM PDT by Crim (Palin / West '16)
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To: IChing
Murder is murder. What's a badge got to do with it?

Popo need to think more passively about taking suspects!

Unless the perps are holding hostages, or gone zombie, they should employ the most peaceful means of capture. Even if they have to stake out and wait a week outside someones house. I promise you they will eventually surrender. If they come out guns blazing, let em have it. If they come out peacefully no one gets assaulted.

4 posted on 07/22/2014 11:58:51 AM PDT by rawcatslyentist (Jeremiah 50:32 "The arrogant one will stumble and fall ; / ?)
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To: IChing

I watched the video. Looked like a good take down to me. It was not a choke hold because the perp was still talking.

Any strenuous activity can cause a coronary. Deciding to resist arrest is going to cause very strenuous activity. This was a choice that the perp made. Given the long rap sheet, it was a well informed decision.


5 posted on 07/22/2014 11:59:46 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: IChing
However, even left-wing New York City mayor Bill de Blasio went on record to clarify a crucial aspect of the matter saying, “Not wanting to be arrested does not grant an individual the right to resist arrest, nor does it free the officers of the obligation to make the arrest.”

That's because the cop didn't kill him. The state and city did. At least from what I've read, the dude was selling loose cigarettes. Garner was killed because the nanny state has decided for its citizens that cigarettes are harmful and should be taxed out of existence.

I don't blame the police, I blame the absolute stupidity of the state and city that is willing to instruct their officers to take to the ground anybody daring to go against their righteous cigarette policies.
6 posted on 07/22/2014 12:00:23 PM PDT by mmichaels1970
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To: IChing

All I ask is the everyone be subject to the SAME LAW, no immunity of any kind. I support equal rights for everyone. PERIOD.


7 posted on 07/22/2014 12:01:53 PM PDT by Rodentking (There is no God but Yahweh and Moses is his prophet - http://www.airpower.blogspot.com/)
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To: IChing
They should have politely asked him when would be the most convenient time in his schedule to take him down to the station.

They should have offered him a limousine with a wet bar and wifi.

And they should have made sure that his favorite lunch was waiting for him when he arrived.

8 posted on 07/22/2014 12:03:39 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: IChing
The next day, syndicated radio host Michael Savage–just as he did in the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case last year–loudly bellows blatantly dubious personal presumptions about the incident (such as, “he wasn’t doing anything!”) at the top of his program, and the top of his lungs, and millions of blindly rabid cop-haters pile on in countless other distorted forums.

If Michael Weiner has his panties in a wad over this, then its clear. I'm on the cops side.

9 posted on 07/22/2014 12:04:28 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Crim

The cops checked and verified that he had a pulse and was breathing after he passed out, and the paramedics also verified that he had a pulse and was breathing once they arrived.


10 posted on 07/22/2014 12:05:05 PM PDT by IChing
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To: IChing

The problem is that the cops did nothing to help him before EMS arrived. No matter what a dirtbags he was, cops are supposed to protect and serve.


11 posted on 07/22/2014 12:05:09 PM PDT by sakic
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To: mmichaels1970
Garner was killed because the nanny state has decided for its citizens that cigarettes are harmful

Do you really think it was just for looseys?

Do you know so little about the inner city that you are unaware of what he was doing out there?

12 posted on 07/22/2014 12:05:10 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: IChing
Ignoring facts such as the extensive criminal history

innocent until proven guilty

and overwhelming size of the subject,

doesn't warrant excessive force

and other factors which point more to it being an accidental death (due to the suspect’s grave health issues and non-compliance)

with the police not knowing those health issues, the vic stated them succinctly when he said "I cant breath".

just curious - how many cases did the perp WIN against the dept previously ? - Is it possible they had a chip on their shoulder?

13 posted on 07/22/2014 12:06:07 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: sakic

The cops checked and verified that he had a pulse and was breathing after he passed out, and the paramedics also verified that he had a pulse and was breathing once they arrived.


14 posted on 07/22/2014 12:06:34 PM PDT by IChing
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To: IChing

I guess he must be alive then.


15 posted on 07/22/2014 12:10:18 PM PDT by sakic
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To: wideawake

What do you think he was doing out there?


16 posted on 07/22/2014 12:11:14 PM PDT by sakic
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To: taxcontrol

You watched the video...then you obviously saw that the victim was handcuffed and therefore in custody...the instant at which his disposition is absolutely the responsibility of the pigs standing around not rendering aid.

He was obviously not responding and unconscious, because he wasn’t breathing. THEY are responsible for him because he was in custody, and incapable of helping himself. He required immediate resuscitative aid, and the only people around him, who had a legal obligation to provide it, refused.

At the very least, these pigs are guilty of depraved indifference. EVERY one of them who stood around and failed to render aid.


17 posted on 07/22/2014 12:12:31 PM PDT by rottndog ('Live Free Or Die' Ain't just words on a bumber sticker...or a tagline.)
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To: IChing

A lot of the stories posted here are about people not suspected of anything being shot.


18 posted on 07/22/2014 12:14:10 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: IChing

Don’t worry, Rev. Al is on the case, assisted by the rest of MSNBC.


19 posted on 07/22/2014 12:14:20 PM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: sakic

Like Elvis?


20 posted on 07/22/2014 12:14:50 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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To: IChing

It seems that in this instance the copthugs were justified in their actions.

However, that does not preclude my dislike of copthugs, does it? ;-)


21 posted on 07/22/2014 12:15:20 PM PDT by spel_grammer_an_punct_polise (Why does every totalitarian political hack think that he knows how to run my life better than I do?)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

He was still a tad larger than Fat Elvis.

Elvis was a criminal and lowlife, yet he is revered by some. Maybe this guy could sing, too.


22 posted on 07/22/2014 12:18:36 PM PDT by sakic
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To: wideawake
Do you really think it was just for looseys?

Thus the "at least from what I've read" caveat.

Do you know so little about the inner city that you are unaware of what he was doing out there?

I split time between Cleveland and Akron frequently. I can't say I know everything, but I'm out on the streets quite a bit.

Every story I've read says that police suspected him of selling loose cigarettes. Whatever he's done in the past shouldn't have bearing on the situation. An officer can think whatever he wants. But if in this case the officer was acting on the selling of loose cigarettes, it's a bs reason imho for him to get taken to the ground.

Loose cigarettes are a bs way to claim probable cause.

I saw the video. I really don't blame the cops as much as I blame the anti-cig radicals themselves. It's easy to say "aw heck, we knew what was REALLY going on there". It's very easy when it isn't me the cops are taking down.
23 posted on 07/22/2014 12:21:13 PM PDT by mmichaels1970
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To: sakic

What help is it you’re proposing providing? As a rule of thumb, you don’t give CPR to someone who has a pulse.


24 posted on 07/22/2014 12:25:03 PM PDT by ArmstedFragg (Hoaxey Dopey Changey)
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To: mmichaels1970

See- it proves their point: cigarettes will kill you!
/sarc


25 posted on 07/22/2014 12:28:55 PM PDT by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, deport all illegal aliens, abolish the IRS, DEA and ATF.)
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To: ArmstedFragg

I am not trained in that area. Cops are.

I will venture a guess that the manual does not have the passage “Walk away from the unconscious guy in cuffs and tell each other jokes”.


26 posted on 07/22/2014 12:30:12 PM PDT by sakic
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To: IChing

If they just stick to shooting dogs they are OK...


27 posted on 07/22/2014 12:33:00 PM PDT by zek157
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To: IChing

Do what they say or they will protect and serve you to death.


28 posted on 07/22/2014 12:35:34 PM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: sakic

Right, because unconscious enroute to the hospital never expire before arriving or upon arriving.


29 posted on 07/22/2014 12:39:52 PM PDT by IChing
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To: ArmstedFragg

Glad you pointed that out, you’re right.


30 posted on 07/22/2014 12:42:24 PM PDT by IChing
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To: mmichaels1970
Whatever he's done in the past shouldn't have bearing on the situation.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Of course it should.

Loose cigarettes are a bs way to claim probable cause.

Commission of a crime is not probable cause? Please tell me you're not a lawyer.

The reality: a 350lb, 40+ year old man does not stand outside in the heat for hours in the middle of sidewalk just to sell loose cigarettes.

He is there as a lookout for people who are selling things that are stronger.

And part of his job is to argue with and stall the police.

He knew precisely what he was doing.

31 posted on 07/22/2014 12:44:37 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: IChing

I thought everyone watching the tape could figure out that the guy went unconscious at the hands of the cops. If police brought down a relative of yours and rendered him unconscious while he was saying that he could not breathe, and they then walked away and laughed, your attitude would be that it was done by the book. Sure, it would.


32 posted on 07/22/2014 12:45:41 PM PDT by sakic
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To: sakic

Someone else on the thread pointed out that you don’t give CPR to someone who has a pulse. I’ll add that nor do you give mouth-to-mouth to someone who is breathing.


33 posted on 07/22/2014 12:47:41 PM PDT by IChing
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To: wideawake

He may have been doing something other than selling cigs, but how you know this is a mystery to me.

Even if he was doing what you say, the officers’ actions would still be wrong after they took him down.


34 posted on 07/22/2014 12:48:34 PM PDT by sakic
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To: wideawake

Well done.


35 posted on 07/22/2014 12:51:20 PM PDT by IChing
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To: Crim

He had a pulse and was breathing after he went unconscious. Both the police and paramedics verified this at the scene before transporting him. You don’t administer CPR nor mouth-to-mouth to someone with a pulse who is breathing.


36 posted on 07/22/2014 12:53:08 PM PDT by IChing
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To: sakic
He may have been doing something other than selling cigs, but how you know this is a mystery to me.

That cornerback may have been up to something other than just running as fast downfield as he could, but how anyone could possibly know that he was planning to break up a passing play is a mystery.

Even if he was doing what you say, the officers’ actions would still be wrong after they took him down.

What did they do wrong, exactly?

Do you think that no criminal would ever stoop to something so low as to fake distress and play possum?

They took him down, they checked his pulse when he went out, they got him on an ambulance.

37 posted on 07/22/2014 12:54:12 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: rottndog

He had a pulse and was breathing after he went unconscious. Both the police and paramedics verified this at the scene before transporting him. You don’t administer CPR nor mouth-to-mouth to someone with a pulse who is breathing.


38 posted on 07/22/2014 12:54:28 PM PDT by IChing
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To: wideawake
Commission of a crime is not probable cause?

As I have said, I do not really blame the police. I blame the state that created the market for loose cigarettes by there method of prohibition by excessive taxation.

The reality: a 350lb, 40+ year old man does not stand outside in the heat for hours in the middle of sidewalk just to sell loose cigarettes.

That's conjecture. I see people standing out on the corners of Cleveland, Akron, and suburban freeway exit ramps in 80+ degree heat with signs begging for loose change. I can absolutely see the same type of person out picking up a buck or two per cigarette.

He is there as a lookout for people who are selling things that are stronger.

That's also conjecture.

I believe New York is #1 in the country for the sale of black-market cigarettes. I think LA is #2. I saw a report that 60% of cigarettes smoked in NYC are bought off of the black market. To me, it is very possible he was simply out hustling a few bucks by selling cigarettes.
39 posted on 07/22/2014 12:57:10 PM PDT by mmichaels1970
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To: IChing

yet the medics seem to be in trouble too - hmmmm


40 posted on 07/22/2014 12:58:49 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: IChing

This is a close call but there are too many cases where they ate not close calls. The police have militarized and pushed the constitution beyond the breaking point. Not all of them but more than enough to make me think twice these days. And I grew up in New York where I was shot at for making some guy who happened to be a drunk off duty cop look bad in front of his girlfriend. But I did not hold that against all cops. Hell my cousin was a NY cop. But the militarization has gone way too far.


41 posted on 07/22/2014 12:59:19 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: IChing
I blame the cops and the paramedics on this terrible outcome. The cops were afraid of him because of his large size, so an illegal choke hold was performed. Choke holds were banned by the police force, but the idiot cop did it anyway. Then, as he was lying on the ground, the paramedics did nothing. They could have put him on a heart monitor, which could have shown a fatal type of arrhythmia like v tach, and they could have shocked him. Plus, give oxygen. All they did was load him on a gurney and let him die. Not placing him on any type of cardiac monitor to determine what rhythm he had was malpractice.
42 posted on 07/22/2014 1:05:53 PM PDT by kaila
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To: jwalsh07

I totally agree.


43 posted on 07/22/2014 1:06:31 PM PDT by IChing
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To: IChing

“Shoot first and ask questions later” has always been, throughout history, the default position of the King’s men.

They preserve that privilege by exercising that privilege.

Respect Leviathan, or die.


44 posted on 07/22/2014 1:11:01 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Mass murder and cannibalism are the twin sacraments of socialism - "Who-whom?"-Lenin)
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To: IChing

Oh...ok...I get it....you are an Ex cop....


45 posted on 07/22/2014 1:18:49 PM PDT by Crim (Palin / West '16)
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To: IChing

The victim’s arrest history is immaterial.

He was out, free, and walking around at liberty, having obviously paid for his crimes with prior incarcerations. If he had current charges, they must not have been bad enough to incarcerate him before trial because there he was, out and walking around in the daylight.

Cops cannot treat people as one-size fits all zombies. People have medical conditions. 400 pound people always have medical conditions. When asthma kicks in, in reaction to stress, a cop’s aftershave or whatever trigger, it closes the windpipe. Interrupt breathing and you interrupt the heart. Without a rescue inhaler you die. Quickly.

When someone is crying they can’t breathe, then the aggressor needs stop and think medical emergency. But no one did. In fact, they kept his chest compressed against the ground, squeezing whatever air was still left in his lungs out, instead of rolling him over. The fact also remains no one tried to recussitate him. They might not have been able to get a burst of inhaler into him but they certainly could have done CPR to keep circulation going until an ambulance got there - and if rules say cops can’t do CPR, then any bystander could have done so.

let’s not forget this was over a cigarette - a cigarette.

This was not a rapist, or a child molestor or a murderer caught in the act. This was not a crazy PCP-ridden wacko.

It was a petty criminal with a freaking cigarette.

Since when is allegedly selling a cigarette a capital offense? Since when is our police force focused on cigarettes instead of illegals?

There was no capital offense, but what is offensive is yet another group of young, superman yahoo cops using instant excessive force instead of waiting for backup, and cooler, more mature heads to prevail.

And what is up with tatted street cops dressed like slobs? yeah.no. Maybe a uniform would remind these youngsters that they are peace officers, hired to serve and protect, not to act out like WWF second-string yahoos in a fight-club.

I’ll support cops all day long but I’ll be damned if I’m gonna support jackboots within their ranks.


46 posted on 07/22/2014 1:20:11 PM PDT by blueplum
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To: mmichaels1970
I blame the state that created the market for loose cigarettes by there method of prohibition by excessive taxation.

That's good analysis.

I see people standing out on the corners of Cleveland, Akron, and suburban freeway exit ramps in 80+ degree heat with signs begging for loose change.

Good point.

But gangs do not rely on standard issue bums as lookouts because they are unpredictable and inattentive.

Garner was wearing recent vintage high end sneakers, was clean and presentable, and lived in a nearby house.

I believe New York is #1 in the country for the sale of black-market cigarettes.

Oh, I think you're right on the money there.

To me, it is very possible he was simply out hustling a few bucks by selling cigarettes.

I think he was doing both: if I am getting paid to wait around as a diversion to police, I might as well collect some extra cash on the side from a business that can never get me for more than a misdemeanor.

47 posted on 07/22/2014 1:26:20 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: IChing
The suspect, chronic street hustler and asthmatic diabetic Eric Garner, loses consciousness while being restrained on the sidewalk

Oh, look - the "fourth person present exonerative" tense...

48 posted on 07/22/2014 1:29:50 PM PDT by kiryandil (making the jests that some FReepers aren't allowed to...)
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To: sakic
I guess he must be alive then.

Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "I'm not dead yet!"

49 posted on 07/22/2014 1:33:36 PM PDT by kiryandil (making the jests that some FReepers aren't allowed to...)
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To: wideawake; mmichaels1970
The reality: a 350lb, 40+ year old man does not stand outside in the heat for hours in the middle of sidewalk just to sell loose cigarettes.

He is there as a lookout for people who are selling things that are stronger.

And part of his job is to argue with and stall the police.

He knew precisely what he was doing.

Death for traffic tickets.

Or for pre-perps who might be THINKING of committing a traffic offense.

50 posted on 07/22/2014 1:37:34 PM PDT by kiryandil (making the jests that some FReepers aren't allowed to...)
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