Dune Discussion Thread

The Arrakis Street Journal | 3-9-04 | Who else?

[Paul Atreides]

I've had a couple of people tell me how much they love the book Dune, and how much they would love to have a discussion thread.

Dune is a monumental work. I think that, so many times, it is used by the left in trying to apply it to what is going on today. They don't realize that it was written in the mid-60s.

So, if you love to read, and would like to discuss Dune, the books, miniseries, movie, etc., this is the place. Please ping your FRiends!

[Paul Atreides]

A ping, to you avid readers. Please ping your FRiends, or ping lists of those who might be interested.

[I got the rope]

Start off by posting all the names of all the books again. BTW, I went over to Barnes and Noble today to pick up the latest Prequels...those commie bastards didn't have them!!!

Oh well, be back later.

[Rabid Dog]

Dune is my all time favorite book and I'm a book hound!! It's also the only book I have read more than twice and am about to read again.

I first read it in high school (early 70's) because it was the "cool" thing to read in those psychedelic days. It was like hearing a compact disc for the first time - just an incredible experience.

I'm not that much of a Sci-Fi fan and I was glad to hear that George Lucas gave credit where credit was due as far as getting some inspiration from the story.

We could quickly turn this thread into a flame war!

Dune versus Star Wars

[Rabid Dog]

Are you familiar with the book?

[Paul Atreides]

Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse Dune
Dune: House Atreides
Dune: House Harkonnen
Dune: House Corrino
Dune: The Butlerian Jihad
Dune: The Machine Crusade
Dune: The Battle of Corrin (due out this Fall)

[Lawgvr1955]

I really liked the book and the movie. I feel for the poor folks who tried to watch the movie without having read the book first. It wouldn't have been as entertaining otherwise.

Of course, trying to reduce Dune down to the time available on a film had to be difficult. The movie seemed to end too abruptly, like they ran out of money or something.

The miniseries wasn't bad. Again, it would be difficult to make Dune into a television show. Neither the movies or television can compete with your imagination as you read the book.

[Paul Atreides]

I have heard that Lynch's version was about four hours long, and the powers-that-be of the studio chopped it down to two plus hours. When I first saw the movie, I had no clue as to what was going on. Then, I read the book and saw how much had been left out. I was hooked from that moment.

[Paul Atreides]

One of the things that always fascinated me is how the society of Dune could be so manipulated.

When I see how people treat some politicians and celebrities, now, I can see how this might become true.

[Rabid Dog]

I can only respond from the perspective of the book "Dune" - so which society are you talking about? The people who lived in the desert were kind of like freepers and not so easily manipulated.

Refresh my memory!

[Paul Atreides]

I would say the Fremen, the desert-dwellers. The Bene Gesserit were planting false prophecies, among the Fremen, and scheming to make them come true. They were using religion to suit their own purposes. I just cannot help but think of people, who claim to be Christians, and abhor things like homosexuality, abortion, etc., and will still think that Bubba is the grandest thing to ever walk this Earth.

[Rabid Dog]

But Paul's mother wasn't planting false prophesies and Paul didn't plant them either did they? And didn't the fremen know truth when their paths crossed with Paul and his mom?

I was thinking that maybe Paul's dad was the one that was being manipulated.

I'm going to have to get that book (hardcover this time). I had to throw my old copy away - it was a disgrace.

[Paul Atreides]

Technically, Jessica, Paul's mother, did not plant the false prophecies. However, she, and Paul, capitalized on them. I think that it can be said that they accommodated their beliefs, in order to survive, at first. However, they also fed into them, in order for Paul to exact his revenge upon the Emperor. The Fremen actually believed that Paul was some sort of Messiah, who would lead them to freedom.

[Paul Atreides]

BTW, when you read the sequels, the way some of the Fremen view Paul is spelled out more, particularly with Stilgar and Chani.

[NicknamedBob]

This Dune book is clearly a rip-off of the Harry Potter series:
...Young boy's father is killed and he is railroaded from his home.
...A giant creature provides "magical" transportation.
...He discovers that he has unusual powers.

J. K. Rowling should sue this Frank Herbert guy...


Had you going, hunh?

I may be one of the few responders who actually read the book Dune when it first came out! It was serialized in a Science Fiction magazine over five issues! (Galaxy?)

It usually doesn't take me that long to get through a book.
Heck, I can write one in less than five months!

Unfortunately for your purposes, I am not the rabid fan you might be hoping for. I enjoyed it, and several sequels, for their entertainment value, but I did not find it a life-changing work.
In truth, I was more affected by Robert A. Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land than by the Dune series.

Although it did give me a reference viewpoint of desert societies, and messiah cults and movements.

[I got the rope]

In truth, I was more affected by Robert A. Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land than by the Dune series.

blasphemer!

[NicknamedBob]

"blasphemer!"

Well? Face it, Dude. I couldn't get my hands on any "spice," but I could find water.

[Restorer]

I greatly enjoyed the original book, but bogged down about 50 pages into the first sequel and never got any farther.

And don't get me started about the atrocious movie.

[Paul Atreides]

I have heard several people express a dislike for Dune Messiah. When I first read it, I considered it to be a downer. Plus, there was no Lady Jessica. I think that it may be disliked is because it is not an upbeat book. In the first book, we get to see the hero become victorious. However, the second book shows us that all is not well in his post-victory life.

[Androcles]

Brilliant idea for a thread.

The only work that compares to Dune in scifi for majesty and historical drawings is Zelazny's Lord of Light but Dune is easier to identify with and imagine occurring.

Excellent screen name too!

[Paul Atreides]

Thanks! I have never heard of Lord of Light. What is the storyline?

[Androcles]

Very strange book. Written in the style of an indian epic about as much as Lord of the Rings was in the style of the Sagas, etc. It tells of a world settled by Hindu colonists where the crew basically decided to deprive the colonists of high tech and let them revert to a primitive easilly molded civilisation….the crewmen have used the tech to establish themselves as Gods and control the populace through their technological implementation of the Hindu pantheorn and religious universe.

A very unusual and rewarding book.

To quote one review:

"Probably his best book in terms of style, sweep and scope. It is well written enough and has enough "scope", whatever that is, to qualify as "literature" to many more high-minded than I. I just like it a lot. I was just re-reading it last night, which is probably why I'm writing this now.

It is about an isolated human colony on an unnamed planet. The colonists are of eastern Indian (not Native American) descent. In order to combat the indigenous terrors of the planet, the leaders of the colony develop Aspects and Attributes (ok, they are really superpowers) patterned on the Hindu pantheon. They do this with a mixture of technology, psionics, and just plain will. They also make reincarnation a reality, though by technological means rather than supernatural.

In the process, the crew members of the colony ship, who become gods and demigods, keep the "passengers" oppressed and in a rigid caste system. A number of crew members think this is unjust. But the crew leaders like being gods, and adopt a paternalistic, "they aren't ready" kind of attitude.

The effective leader of the opposition is a warrior/con man (like a number of Zelazny characters) with many names, but you can call him Sam. He starts a counter-movement to the Hindu establishment: Buddhism! (Later, when asked why he didn't try Christianity, he says he would have, but crucifixion hurts!) The book relates his struggles against the gods in the Celestial City (which used to be called First Base). Along the way you meet Yama, the God of Death, Agni the God of Fire, Shiva the Destroyer, Kali, the Goddess of Death and Despair, all of which are very convincing in their roles. We also meet fire-demons, which behave much like classical Hindu (or Christian) demons. They are pure-energy beings, who were the inhabitants of this planet before the humans came. In fact, Sam's "power" is more or less psychokinetic electrodirection, which among other things, means he can control these beings (one of his more prominent names is "Binder of Demons"). Anyway, there are a number of battles and twists and turns before the end.

One warning: Between chapters one and two, we flash back a number of years. This was not immediately obvious to me. I was confused until chapter four. So watch out for the timeframes in this novel as you go along. But it repays the effort. And is a good re-read even after you know what is going to happen."

[Paul Atreides]

Thanks, for the heads-up. That does sound intriguing. I'll look for it, at my local bookstore, if it is still in print.

[Androcles]

On a more Dune-related thread, what was your feeling re the Dune prequels and the Butlerian prequels.

I have to admit the easy to read, simple crises easily resolved feel of the first prequels put me off as being overly simple compared to Dune. As to the Jihad series, I prefer that since so little was known of it. I do have issues over these telekinetic powers etc... I prefer the way Frank Herbert handed out powers - ie very sparingly.

[Paul Atreides]

They have their moments. Other than introducing some stuff that, frankly, skews away from Dune canon, there were some plot elements that would have been so interesting if they had been developed just a little bit further. For instance:

The Fenring's banquet on Arrakis had a great climax. It just got to the climax too early. There was no buildup of suspense.

When Jessica gives birth to Paul, and she thinks that Mohiam is going to kill him, for not being the daughter. Personally, I would have had Jessica, out of fear for her son, successfully use Voice on Mohiam, for the first, and only, time in her life.

I didn't like the presence of so much technology and gadgetry.

I didn't like the obvious contradictions to the original books.

I didn't care for the gimmick of having everyone who was a major player in Dune, meet up with each other in the prequels.

I like the books, for the most part. I think that they just needed more tweaking.

[Androcles]

They have their moments. Other than introducing some stuff that, frankly, skews away from Dune canon, there were some plot elements that would have been so interesting if they had been developed just a little bit further. For instance:

The Fenring's banquet on Arrakis had a great climax. It just got to the climax too early. There was no buildup of suspense.

I still say little will ever approach let alone surpass the original banquet in Dune.

When Jessica gives birth to Paul, and she thinks that Mohiam is going to kill him, for not being the daughter. Personally, I would have had Jessica, out of fear for her son, successfully use Voice on Mohiam, for the first, and only, time in her life.

Nice.

I didn't like the presence of so much technology and gadgetry. Agreed. The sparse technology – rare but significant – was one of the most distinctive features in the originals. It is no longer seems unique in machines, simply more that Ix is Japan in its capacity where everyone else is North Korea. Good capacity but older designs. I did not like the whole Tleilaxu-Ix confliuct at all.

I didn't like the obvious contradictions to the original books. I didn't care for the gimmick of having everyone who was a major player in Dune, meet up with each other in the prequels. I’m in hearty agreement on this point. It’s also pretty plain from the tone of the Butlerian books (Well, I’ve read one) that they’re similar already in terms of the planets and so on recurring.

I like the books, for the most part. I think that they just needed more tweaking.

I’m unsure. I think I’d prefer a Tolkien style treatment where more of his father’s notes or similar were available for the readers to judge. As they stand I think they need some hard-core and very ruthless editing. Nothing stays in unless its integral to the plot…and it must be made plain to them that not every mystery requires explanation. Not every problem must be interconnected or requires a happy ending.

Also the Guilds – keep them aloof and mysterious as orginally they were…the prequels to me made them feel like a normal player albeit one with a few mutants in fishtanks.

I liked their introduction of a nice Harkonnenn though. That was an elegant touch.

I also have to say that I was unimpressed by the ending of the trilogy....The politics of the Lansraad felt more cutthroat than that to me.

Anyway, I'm off for the weekend. Nice chatting. Cheers!

[The G Man]

Paul:

I had much the same feeling as you with regard to the prequels, but I still enjoyed reading them. I thought they came up with a couple of neat ideas. For instance, I liked the fact that Tio Holtzmann turned out to be somewhat of a fraud. Thought that was a nice touch. Also liked the Erasmus character and birth of the jihad on Earth.

Do you think the prequels are REALLY based on Frank's vision of Dune, as his son and his collaborator suggest? They claim to have Frank's outline for Dune 7 and thus used the prequels to set up events for that book. That leads me to believe that Dune 7 concerns the return of the machines (from Omnious' scouts I suspect).

[Paul Atreides]

A lot of people, angry over the quality of the prequels, have made the statement that Brian Herbert is just trying to cash in on his father's legacy. In my opinion, he has waited an awfully long time to do that, if true. That said, he may have used elements of Frank's notes that he may not have necessarily used, though he jotted them down. I, for one, thought that a golden opportunity for character conflict was destroyed, in the transformation of Norma Cenva. Like you, I think that the Holtzmann angle was great. And, it is also a pleasure to hate Erasmus!

If I was a gambler, I would be willing to bet a large chunk of money that the seventh book will be the return of the machines.

[The G Man]

Do you ever visit Dreamers of Dune? It's an EXCELLENT Dune message board. You'd enjoy it very much I think. Brian Herbert and whats-his-face are affectionately known as "Pinky and the Brian" htere.

On another note, one thing I really did not like about the prequels was the way that Iblis Ginjo went from noble organizer of the original Butlerian Jihad to Emperor Palpatine. No inkling at all in the first novel. Unbelievably weak character development all around IMO.

[Paul Atreides]

I've been to DoD, though I am not a member. Actually, I created a Dune site as well, though I don't really do any managing much anymore. DoD is a very well put-together site.

There are some who say that Kevin J. Anderson has too much of a Star Wars influence on the Dune prequels, since he writes some of the Star Wars books.

[The G Man]

The Ginaz Swordmasters using ... (ugh) ... "pulse swords"? 'NUFF SAID!

[Paul Atreides]

LOL!

[Chani]

Fantastic finding this old thread. sigh

Am reading everything out so far, starting with Battle of Corrin. No matter all the criticisms, I love this world.

Gotta admit....had a hard time with guilt watching the miniseries with ole Susan Saranwrap in it. I justified it with knowing she was a villian. lol

[Paul Atreides]

The same here, about Saranwrap. Personally, I think she kept the second miniseries from being as successful as the first. There was a huge scare, at the beginning, when rumors were being circulated that Saranwrap would be portraying Lady Jessica!

As per the new books, there are heaps of criticism for them. They have their moments, but they just aren't the same. One major problem is continuity issues.

[Chani]

Well...I go into the new ones, with the knowledge that it's not Frank writing them......so of course they will not be the same. Maybe I'm not as discerning, and easily entertained. I am just glad that it hasn't ended...and am wondering if Brian is gonna write more, because it seemed to me that the end of the Butlerian trio, still had lots of loose ends to build on.

May I ask if you hear of more books being published, to please let me know. And vice versa, of course. :)

[Paul Atreides]

There will be a new book coming out. It is known as The Seventh Book, and uses newly found notes of Frank's.

[Professional Engineer]

PING

[Chani]

Great!!! Usually the only way I know a new one is out is thru the Sci Fi Book Club, so I'll keep my eyes peeled. :)

[Paul Atreides]

http://groups.msn.com/TheLandsraad/_whatsnew.msnw

[Chani]

Oh wow....thanx for the link. Will have to find lots of time to peruse it, but looks great!