Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What Justice System?
Tomahawk | 3/27/05 | Tomahawk

Posted on 03/27/2005 8:05:52 AM PST by tomahawk

What Justice System?

In a death penalty case, would any judge ignore new evidence in the form of multiple eyewitnesses' testimony which, if true, would prove definitively that the person scheduled for execution did not commit the crime, on the basis that the new evidence was not presented three (3) days earlier? One would hope not. That certainly would not be just.

Yet, that is essentially what has occured in the Terri Shiavo case. Judge George Greer was presented multiple affidavits by several eyewitnesses that heard, with their own ears, and saw with their own eyes, Terri Schiavo speaking, responding to an attorney's question, "Do you want to live", with "I WA.....".

Now, the very legal predicate being used to put Ms. Schiavo to death is that she is in a permanent vegetative state (PVS). Now, several neurologists and the eyewitnesses have testified under oath, under penalty of perjury and imprisonment, that Ms. Schiavo is likely NOT in a PVS.

His imperial highness, Judge Greer, ruled that this new evidence is worthless and should be disregarded, because it wasn't brought to his attention three (3) days earlier, at another hearing. In other words, Judge Greer doesn't care whether Ms. Schiavo is conscious or not, whether she is suffering or not, whether the basis to put her to death exists or not. This is an "I see nothing, I hear nothing" approach.

It is abhorrent and abominable. And he has now been affirmed by the Florida appellate courts on the basis that they wish to see nothing and hear nothing, either. Legal procedural technicalites being used to starve and dehydrate a conscious disabled citizen to death.

This is not a "justice" system. It is some other kind of system.

I would argue that fundamental due process under the 14th Amendment to the United States Consitution requires, and justice demands, that a person not be put to death on the basis of an old PVS diagnosis from some doctors, on the supposed basis of fulfilling the supposed wishes of a person on the predicate of an accurate PVS diagnosis, based upon old tests, where other competent doctors disagree and believe the person is not in a PVS and/or sworn testimony shows to the contrary.

This is murder, plain and simple. Cold-blooded murder in the Biblical or real-world sense, if not in the "legal" sense.

I believe that Ms. Schiavo is being deprived of her life without due process, and her 14th Amendment rights have been violated. That no court has agreed speaks volumes about the quality of the judges who sit on them.

This is a human tragedy, and we must fix this system to that other innocent helpless people are not put to death under similar circusmstances in the future. True justice demands it.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: euthanasia; felos; greer; schiavo; terri
Signed, an ashamed 15 year attorney, Tomahawk.
1 posted on 03/27/2005 8:05:52 AM PST by tomahawk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
Greer is such a clown. If, acting as the tyrant, he has decided Terri is to be killed, why hasn't he insisted on a lethal injection? Why has he determined she is to be killed by thirst?

Wouldn't it be humorous if a bunch of people threw him in a cage so the world could watch him die of thirst. Now wouldn;t that be justice in this case?

2 posted on 03/27/2005 8:16:56 AM PST by stevem
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
What Justice System?

In a death penalty case, would any judge ignore new evidence in the form of multiple eyewitnesses' testimony which, if true, would prove definitively that the person scheduled for execution did not commit the crime, on the basis that the new evidence was not presented three (3) days earlier? One would hope not. That certainly would not be just.

Happens all the time, at least in Texas.

You are not guaranteed 'justice' or the correct decision, only a procedurally fair trial.
Appeals of murder cases are turned down because the new evidence is not timely and actual innocence is not necessarily a reason for a stay of execution of a new trial.

So9

3 posted on 03/27/2005 8:16:57 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: stevem
Greer is such a clown. If, acting as the tyrant, he has decided Terri is to be killed, why hasn't he insisted on a lethal injection? Why has he determined she is to be killed by thirst?

Judge Greer followed the law. That is what we have always asked of judges. To give Terri to her parents under Florida Law would be outrageoous judicial activism and legislating from the bench.

Don't like the decision?
Change the law, but don't bitch because a judge enforced it as written.

SO9

4 posted on 03/27/2005 8:20:12 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk

Dear tomahawk, what shall we do?

I fear that many, by focusing their attention on Bush's judicial nominees are like those who stagger toward a mirage, hoping to find water.

Our problem won't be solved by getting conservative "Christian" judges on the bench, Judge Greer is considered by many who know him, to be just such a man,

I say, that trial by jury in all cases in which death may result from the verdict, is our only hope.

What say ye?


5 posted on 03/27/2005 8:25:34 AM PST by steampower
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

I can see why there has to be some finality in a criminal case (though I would hope a court would consider new DNA evidence, or a confession by another person), but this situation is tantamount to burying a person alive.


6 posted on 03/27/2005 8:29:10 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

He followed the law that was amended to allow Terri to be put to death.

But his factual findings were clearly erroneous, in my book and contrary to the weight of the evidence. But the appellate judges covered for him.

It is more likely than not that she is not in a PVS, but the courts don't care. I hope others aren't put to death in similar fashion.


7 posted on 03/27/2005 8:31:54 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
I can see why there has to be some finality in a criminal case (though I would hope a court would consider new DNA evidence, or a confession by another person), but this situation is tantamount to burying a person alive.

This is, at bottom, a type of custody case. If there were no limit on appeals and 'new evidence' every custody case would stay active until the ward was grown or dead. No one would ever give up and no decision would be final.

So9

8 posted on 03/27/2005 8:34:32 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

I can see your analogy, but there is no perfect one.

No system should allow somone who credible (even "last minute") evidence shows is conscious to be starved to death on the premise she would never be conscious again.


9 posted on 03/27/2005 8:38:29 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

It's like burying someone we know is alive, even though a court found them to be dead (after making findings of fact on the subject).


10 posted on 03/27/2005 8:44:19 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
But his factual findings were clearly erroneous, in my book and contrary to the weight of the evidence. But the appelate judges covered for him.

You get one bite at the apple. It is not the role of Appelate Courts to review findings of fact.

It is more likely than not that she is not in a PVS, but the courts don't care. I hope others aren't put to death in similar fashion.

She may not be, but the courts gave her parent 1 chance to prove it, that's all anyone gets.

Thousands are put to death like this every year. I don't know anyone who hasn't had a friend of family member go like this.

So9

11 posted on 03/27/2005 8:44:47 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
It's like burying someone we know is alive, even though a court found them to be dead (after making findings of fact on the subject).

Our justice system is not perfect, but it is the best one ever devised by the mind of man.

A judicial system that offers finality, even though it makes some mistakes is at least workable. So9

12 posted on 03/27/2005 8:48:08 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

FYI, I do support written living wills and allowing terminally ill people to decide when to cease treatment.

I am against "active euthanaisa" however, and believe that this is such a case, under the guise of fulfilling her wishes.


13 posted on 03/27/2005 8:57:41 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
FYI, I do support written living wills and allowing terminally ill people to decide when to cease treatment.

I am against "active euthanaisa" however, and believe that this is such a case, under the guise of fulfilling her wishes.

Active Euthenasia?
Explain to me why my father had to spend his last days dieing just like Terrri because it would be 'wrong' to provide him or his caregivers a massive dose of morphine to end it mercifully?

So9

14 posted on 03/27/2005 9:02:15 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

My mother passed from lung cancer and was on morphine, which did help with the pain. I'm sorry about your dad's situation, or anyone with a terminal disease having to consciously starve to death.

I'm concerned that Ms. Schiavo, who was not terminal, is being required to do so now.


15 posted on 03/27/2005 9:06:10 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
Response A: yes, but there have been 473 hearings already! (No matter that they've been sham hearings, considering only carefully-screened "evidence.")

Response B: ah, yes. Our Department of Injustice -- or so it should be ever known until this wrong is owned up to, and righted.

Dan
Biblical Christianity BLOG

16 posted on 03/27/2005 9:09:07 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9
Judge Greer followed the law.

Yes, he followed the law but that is not enough.

Judge Greer made dubious and unethical judgments by being biased to one side, and has financial and other relationships that caused conflict of interests. Greer had, and still has, an obligation to recuse himself from the Schiavo case.

17 posted on 03/27/2005 9:10:27 AM PST by demlosers (Soylent Green is made in Florida)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: demlosers

I agree with you, he should have been removed from the case based on obvious conflicts of interest.

Unfortunately, recusal motions are filed with the judge sought to be recused, and are reviewed by other judges using deferential review standards.


18 posted on 03/27/2005 9:13:27 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
Unfortunately, recusal motions are filed with the judge sought to be recused, and are reviewed by other judges using deferential review standards.

To put it bluntly, that sucks.

19 posted on 03/27/2005 9:22:51 AM PST by demlosers (Soylent Green is made in Florida)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk

Welcome to Amerika.


20 posted on 03/27/2005 9:38:07 AM PST by mtbopfuyn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9
Appeals of murder cases are turned down because the new evidence is not timely and actual innocence is not necessarily a reason for a stay of execution of a new trial.

I am not clear if you are asserting that such appeals are always turned down; if so, that's not correct. Such exonerations do occur even in Texas, such as the Ochoa case where later DNA evidence was indeed accepted as exonerating evidence and Mr. Ochoa was freed after having spent 11 years in prison.

If you are saying that new evidence alone is not sufficient, you are correct. Even strong new evidence may not be enough, especially in Texas.

21 posted on 03/27/2005 9:40:55 AM PST by snowsislander (Isa41:17-When the poor and needy seek water,and there is none,and their tongue faileth for thirst...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9
Judge Greer followed the law.

Greer followed the law by not allowing Terri an attorney ad litem? Greer followed the law by ignoring all evidence in her favor each and every time for all these years? Greer followed the law by assigning himself her guardian and NEVER ONCE laid eyes on her? Greer followed the law by not demanding Terri's husband to show up in court so he wouldn't have to answer any questions year, after year, after year? Greer followed the law by not demanding to have the guardian financial statement presented to him each and every time? Sure, Greer merely following the letter of the law folks. Step aside. Nothing to see. Move on.

22 posted on 03/27/2005 9:43:46 AM PST by mtbopfuyn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk

True. ALL the judges have played cya on this case for years.


23 posted on 03/27/2005 9:45:24 AM PST by mtbopfuyn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: demlosers; tomahawk
Unfortunately, recusal motions are filed with the judge sought to be recused, and are reviewed by other judges using deferential review standards.

To put it bluntly, that sucks.

So what's new?
Nancy Grace of CNN/Court TV was known as 'Amazing Grace' when she was a prosecutor in Atlanta because she had a 100% conviction rate on murders.
How many innocent people are on death row because she is extremely talented and they had poor quality public defenders?

The attorney for Terri Schiavo's parents did a poor job. She didn't get Greer recused, she didn't get material accepted into evidence, she didn't argue the case well.

That's a shame, but that is the best legal system man has been able to put together.
It works most of the time for most people.
It is idealistic, but naive to expect more from a human system.

If you blow your one bite at the apple, you're doomed.
Time to say "sorry about that" and move on.

So9

24 posted on 03/27/2005 9:51:37 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: snowsislander
If you are saying that new evidence alone is not sufficient, you are correct. Even strong new evidence may not be enough, especially in Texas.

That is what I was trying to say. Thank's for clarifying.

So9

25 posted on 03/27/2005 9:53:12 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: mtbopfuyn
Greer followed the law by not allowing Terri an attorney ad litem? Greer followed the law by ignoring all evidence in her favor each and every time for all these years? Greer followed the law by assigning himself her guardian and NEVER ONCE laid eyes on her? Greer followed the law by not demanding Terri's husband to show up in court so he wouldn't have to answer any questions year, after year, after year? Greer followed the law by not demanding to have the guardian financial statement presented to him each and every time?

Yes, in fact he did follow the law in all that.
Don't like it?
Change the law, but don't bitch about the current law being enforced, it makes you sound like a liberal.

So9

26 posted on 03/27/2005 9:59:08 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

I'm beginning to think there may be better legal systems in other countries.


27 posted on 03/27/2005 10:06:48 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
I'm beginning to think there may be better legal systems in other countries.

Do your research, I'd love to see a better one, but I think you will find they are all worse.

So9

28 posted on 03/27/2005 10:10:29 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9

Any legal system is only going to be as good as the people who administer it.

We have a good number of bad apples in our judicial ranks, of this I am sure.


29 posted on 03/27/2005 10:23:50 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
We have a good number of bad apples in our judicial ranks, of this I am sure.

Just like every other profession.

So9

30 posted on 03/27/2005 10:25:51 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: tomahawk
I was just looking through the documents in this case, and the one where Judge Greer forbids the oral administration of sustenance is so far beyond the pale that I question not just his jurisprudence but his sanity.
31 posted on 03/27/2005 10:34:57 AM PST by snowsislander (Isa41:17-When the poor and needy seek water,and there is none,and their tongue faileth for thirst...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: snowsislander

The order of no food or water by mouth arguably transforms his order into unlawful assisted suicide (under the guise that this was her wish), which constitutes the crime of manslaughter under FL law.

I wish that the prosecutors would look into that, but don't expect it.


32 posted on 03/27/2005 10:40:15 AM PST by tomahawk (http://tomahawkblog.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: stevem

God's justice will be more severe.


33 posted on 03/27/2005 10:40:16 AM PST by Leatherneck_MT (3-7-77 (No that's not a Date))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9
Do your research, I'd love to see a better one, but I think you will find they are all worse.

From my observation, I would say that the Japanese judicial system is a good one (but by no means perfect, and in fact it is presently undergoing some modification), but it and Japanese society are too different from our own for me to make easy comparison.

For easier comparison, I would think Australia, Canada, and the UK would be the most natural. I personally am not a fan of Napoleonic systems and in my opinion that they are clearly worse than our own.

34 posted on 03/27/2005 10:42:03 AM PST by snowsislander (Isa41:17-When the poor and needy seek water,and there is none,and their tongue faileth for thirst...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson