Posted on 06/21/2005 8:44:44 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger
A few months ago, a dog showed up at our house and won us over. We let him stay. He was a beautiful, intelligent Springer Spaniel whom we named Riley. Within a the past couple of months, we had a few noticeable incidents with Riley. Once, I was playing with him, using a corn cob. We often play together, but this time, when I tried to take the corn cob from his mouth, he gave a low growl. I reached to cover his nose/jaw with my hand (domination trick recommended by vet – forces him to submit. At least, it’s supposed to) Riley turned into an ugly beast for a few seconds, and bit my hand fiercely, puncturing the skin in one place.
On another occasion, my dad was working on a lawn mower, and came back to find Riley had stolen away with Dad’s grease rag. I wasn’t there, but they told me that Dad – already a little frustrated with the repair work – came after Riley in what would be described as an aggressive manner, to take the rag. Riley went ginzu on Dad too, biting him once.
We realized these seemed to be signs of “rage syndrome” which our semi-clueless vets had warned us about when we had him examined, but had said if he had rage syndrome, we’d have already found out. Ha ha.
Anyway, our family made the hard decision to remove Riley from the family because of this behavior. By ourselves, it wouldn’t be a problem, but I have younger siblings in the house, in the 6-10 range, and we didn’t want to risk them getting injured.
To help fill the gap, we rescued one dog from the humane society, and another from a Lab Rescue shelter. We’re happy to help these guys out, but let’s face it, my FRiends… we miss our Riley.
We’re trying to learn a little more about Rage Syndrome, and while discussing it with my family, I snapped my fingers and knew that my FReeper friends might be of some help.
But let me be frank … I’m not looking for opinions. We’ve gotten opinions out the wazzu. What we’re looking for is some good advice. Any dog-savvy people here that can help?
hmmm...what were you doing to Riley with that corn cob?
Doggie ping please?
As you did, we would have relatively quickly found a new dog...always a pup...and raised him in the love of our family.
We had a terrier once we had to put down, who had been with us for 11 years, when he started killing the neighbors chickens, and the only way to stop him was to chain him up. Having lived free in the country his whole live, my Dad made the decision and everyone of us understood it.
Those are my experiences...I know they do not exactly fit in with much of today's thinking.
Try this link : http://www.vetinfo.com/daggression.html#Rage%20syndrome
My wife is a veterinarian, and has dealt with "Springer Rage" on numerous occaisions with clients.
Removing the dog is about the only option. They are hyper aggressive and can never be trusted around children. EVER.
You have the option of removing it from your home, putting it to sleep, or being stuck with an animal that can turn on you for no reason. Anyone who tells you that any sort of "Behaivioral Modification" classes will help with this is talking out their butt. You either have a good Springer, in which case you have a great dog!, or you have a rage Springer. Rage Springers are NOT for folks that have children in the house or even other animals.
Blame the breeders for this disorder.
"Anyway, our family made the hard decision to remove Riley from the family because of this behavior."
Please clarify, what did you do? Did you send him to the animal shelter, put him to sleep, or...???
If the dog is dangerously unpredictable, do not inflict him on someone else.
>Anyone know of something called "Rage Syndrome?"<
Yes, but from what I understand, in true "rage syndrome", there is no trigger, like a bone (or in this dog's case, a corn cob). People describe the dog with rage as getting a faraway look in its eye, and it attacks for no reason. Afterwards, the dog is apologetic and tries to make up.
It may be a form of epilepsy.
"Riley" sounds like a dog with pronounced object guarding behavior. Not rage, but a dog that is this aggressive is no less dangerous.
The response doesn't describe any treatment. I assume there isn't any?
And Dave.... I'm curious, if your vet has discussed this syndrome with you, why do you say they are 'semi-clueless', and what did they say?
But is more curable.
We had one of our dogs put down because he started biting us. He would get that look in his eyes like he didn't know who we were. Feel bad about putting him down, but he wouldn't stop biting.
Here are some websites dealing with rage syndrome:
http://www.vetinfo.com/daggressp.html
http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=943&S=1&SourceID=60
Riley had stolen away with Dad’s grease rag..... Dad came after Riley in what would be described as an aggressive manner, to take the rag."
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Sounds to me like the dog was playing, and he responded to what he perceived as threatening, aggressive behavior on your and your dad's part. You said you only had the dog for a few months. Apparently you and the dog weren't bonded yet, and he just responded to a threat.
I would consider your vet's advice for a "domination trick" as animal abuse. I would change vets.
As for advice, I suggest you work on gaining the dog's trust and love and not try to "dominate" him.
Riley doesn't have "rage syndrome".
Yep, it's more curable. I have a pet named Riley, a silly Siamese kitten. The little brat is sucking on my arm as I type. She's 3 months old, and I wish I could convince her she was weaned ages ago!
It's embarrassing to go around with kitten hickeys on one's person...
It is not clear to me from what you have written whether Riley is showing aggressive possessiveness or Rage Syndrome. Both described episodes involved a makeshift toy. While possessiveness can possibly be fixed with training, training requires time, energy and committment. And there are no guarantees. Rage Symdrome is not amenable to training.
I have heard that Cocker Spaniels bite more than any other breed because of Rage Syndrome.
I would get the dog evaluated by a trainer who works with problem dogs.
Good luck with your decision.
I heard of some dogs, that started to behave aggressively towards the owner and in several cases I heard about it was because of major illness, like brain tumor, cancer (the dog was in so much pain, he was going mad with pain) and other physical illnesses.
I heard of some dogs, that started to behave aggressively towards the owner and in several cases I heard about it was because of major illness, like brain tumor, cancer (the dog was in so much pain, he was going mad with pain) and other physical illnesses.
I heard of some dogs, that started to behave aggressively towards the owner and in several cases I heard about it was because of major illness, like brain tumor, cancer (the dog was in so much pain, he was going mad with pain) and other physical illnesses.
Also, nothing unemotional about it. We all cried, including my Dad, and we all hated it had to be that way. But our neighbors and their livelihood was mor important than our dog. We knew it, the neighbor knew it (although he was as remorseful almost as we).
You characterization of what we had to do is way off the mark. It was direct and it was pragmatic. That does not mean it was hot-headed or unemotional.
Just trying to share our perspective and experience. Nothing more or less. It is what I thought you asked for.
If faced with the same circumstance today out there in the country...I would do as my father did, and my family would nunderstand.
I agree about the object guarding versus the wholly unprovoked Rage bite. But I think if one is committed, training can work on this problem.
Consult a Koehler trainer.
Why are you playing games? I can't do research on your vet. I only wanted to know what they said and why you characterized them as clueless.
Because these "vets" DID say that rage syndrome is just flying off the handle for no reason, turning totally animal on you. In each case, the Riley was provoked. Ideally, he should have submitted and cowered before my angry dad, but instead, he took him on. Not good, but perhaps not as severe as rage syndrome?
I don't know a thing about 'rage syndrome' but possessiveness and dominance is a training issue a good trainer might help you fix. If the dog is incorrigable and it's a screw loose in his head, then I would absolutely put him down with humanity and tears, but without the guilt of potentially letting him hurt someone else. You can't ensure his future safety or the safety of others by finding him a 'good home'.
"Apologies for sounding vague! We did NOT put him to sleep, but gave him to the local shelter, and have been making sure he's sent to good hands. Longing for our generally good Riley is making us reconsider."
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Well, I am certainly glad to hear it. In my experience with dogs, the "carrot" approach: lover, respect, but firmness, without 'pushing' at the wrong time always worked. I think the harsh approach may make him afraid of you and do your bidding because of fear, but that is not what your really should want. If you gain the dog's love and trust he will try to please you and a firm word from you will make him do what you want.
Another thing for you to consider, is that you don't know what the dog was trained to do before. Maybe he was trained to guard things without releasing it to ANYONE. He can be retrained with patience.
&^%$ typo!
I mean gain the LOVE and respect of the dog.
The dog was healthy and never acted like he was in pain. He was only 3 years old. We had adopted him.
As you described, that he started to attack you for no reason, sounds justified for putting him to sleep.
But this Riley dog has only been in his new home for a few months, and was responding to what he perceived as aggressive behavior on the part of people.
Well said.
FR is so cool. A great panel discussion on thirty-minutes notice, with research links, differing schools of thought, compassion, etc.
Love it. Thank you Mr. Robinson.
I'd suggest you don't know a thing about leading a dominant dog... only how to suck up to one.
~smiles~
"In my experience with dogs, the "carrot" approach: lover, respect, but firmness, without 'pushing' at the wrong time always worked. I think the harsh approach may make him afraid of you and do your bidding because of fear, but that is not what your really should want. If you gain the dog's love and trust he will try to please you and a firm word from you will make him do what you want."
I don't agree. Dog aggression should be handled with a carrot/stick approach. Doing your bidding from fear is just fine versus a dog who feels he can bite you. Consistency is the most important factor in dog training. A dog should know just what to expect from its behavior. Then it will trust you and do your bidding.
Cruel to be kind results in a dog having to be put down.
Operant conditioning, the tried and true method, uses rewards and punishments.
lol
Correction:
Cruel to be kind results in a dog NOT having to be put down.
I could be wrong, I am the first to admit it, but it didn't sound like this is a dominant dog, it was a couple of instances, when the dog reacted to, didn't initiate aggressiveness.
If you are training a Doberman or pitbull, that's a whole different situation, and that should be done by professional trainers.
Could have been a dominance issue. We had a lab that suddenly started biting. Softly at first, then harder. Every time she did that, I put a choke harness on her, and took her for a walk, keeping the leash short. It was uncomfortable for her.
It took nearly six weeks, but she did, after that, go back to the dog she was. No more biting.
Let 'em know who's in charge.
Undersood completely...and feel, at least in my opinion and experience, that you did the right thing.
Your advice to just not challenge and try to win love only wins you a leader... your dog.
Who's in charge here?
You had a choice to have the vet put her down. What are you, too cheap?
"You had a choice to have the vet put her down. What are you, too cheap?"
I will not hire a hit man to do what is my responsibility.
"Undersood completely...and feel, at least in my opinion and experience, that you did the right thing."
Some others do not think so, but that is their right.
I grew up with Springer Spaniels and our dogs were wonderful. Hyper as heck, but great dogs.
Of course, I wanted one as an adult.
We had Pluto for two years before he turned on my daughter and me. He had been a happy-go-lucky regular dog for two years and then he changed.
I had taken him to the vet and because he had been so good that day, I bought him a pig ear. When we got home, he took it into the living room and started chewing on it. My daughter walked by him to turn on the tv and he growled and bared his teeth at her.
She wasn't walking toward him or even looking at him and she had no intention of taking his treat away from him.
I stupidly thought it was a one time thing. I threw the pig ears out and thought that would be the end of it.
About a week later he was laying with my daughter on her bed. I went in to tell her good night and to take Pluto out of the room. I called him and he just stared at me. Normally, he'd jump off the bed and run over to me with his tail wagging. As I approached the bed, he growled, bared his teeth and snapped at me. Fortunately, he wasn't able to bite me because I wasn't close enough.
I couldn't believe it. I loved that dog so much. And so did my daughter.
I called the vet in the morning and asked him what to do. He told me that some Springers have neurological problems that can cause this behavior and that there wasn't any way to fix it.
We chose to have him put to sleep rather than risk having him hurt our daughter or someone else's child. My husband had to do it because I couldn't bear to watch it happen.
I still wonder if we did the right thing. He was so loving and so playful most of the time. It's hard to even think about it now and it's been three years.
Well, I think bullets are for enemies, not friends. I think it's a despicably violent way to put down a pet.
I just think you did it the wrong way.
Yes it is...and I would not think to deny them their way with their animal with vets and trainers and such. That's just not the way we chose to handle it on the ranch in Texas.
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