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Confessions of a (former) Troll. Confession cleanses the soul, but not the ZOT!
9/16/2005 | Gustavo

Posted on 09/16/2005 10:49:22 PM PDT by Gustavo

First the confession and a heart-felt apology. I got carried away in the run-up to the last election and lurked and trolled at Free Republic for a while. I am sorry I did this. I realize it was pathetic and deceitful. It was also not very productive.

Please be lenient. I'm sure many of you have done the same on leftists sites. In fact, I think deep down you Freepers and I aren't that different: passionate about our beliefs to the point of getting carried away by (and even obsessing with) politics.

I promise I will Troll no longer. Instead, would it be posible to actually start a dialogue of some sort? As I said, you'd be surprised at how much in common we may have (although I'm pretty sure we're different enough to make this interesting).

For starters, I'm actually a church-going, bible-believing, born-again evangelical Christian, I'm prolife and believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I was also educated in very establishment-friendly schools (in business and economics no less) and work for a bulge bracket Wall Street Investment Bank. I sympathize with many of your libertarian arguments and I'm all for individual responsibility. I'm also a law abiding citizen and all for the rule of law and order.

Further similarities include my deep respect and love for this country, even as a person who was born and has lived most of its life abroad (oops, the differences are starting to pop up!). I've lived in this country for the last 8 years (first under a non-immigrant work Visa before receiving my greencard) and have learned to love and respect the people, culture and way of life of this country that I and my small family now call home. I cannot tell you how many times I've found myself taking America's side of the argument when I go back to my (also beloved) native country (Mexico).

Ok, what are the other differences? Let me start by saying that my father has distinctly left wing views and, although he's never been a militant, he participated in leftwing anti-government demonstrations in the 60s in Mexico while attending med school, and actually spent about 6 months in jail as a political prisoner (unfairly, he had broken no laws). Neither my father nor most of the kids that were demonstrating were communists (although many chanted socialist slogans and sported Che Guevara T-Shirts), in fact, the spirit of the times had more to do with Tiannanmen than with the Bolchevik revolution.

Unfortunately, the US at that time took the side of authoritarian Latin American governments in crushing dissent, in many cases brutally. Such was the logic of the cold war that put everything in the light of the US-Soviet stand-off (Now, I'm not naive and I know that there were probably Soviet agents trying to incite things in the region at the time, but the reality is that most of the dissent was homegrown and ideallistic rather than communist).

I tell this bit of personal and family history to explain my deep misgivings to United States unilateralism and my perplexity at the Conservative position that dismisses multilateralism and anything that has to do with the UN. Ok, the organization has its flaws and many of the countries represented are not exactly democratic, but Americans know better than most other people that a system with checks and balances is better than one that is dominated by one group of people (in this case, one country). Again, recent history shows us several unfortunate instances when United States' international policy caused unnecessary human suffering and fostered authoritarism (Chile and Argentina come to mind among several other examples).

Other points of dissent include: - Poverty and income redistribution. I realize this is probably a bad word here. I also realize that "handouts" tend to create perverse incentives that can perpetuate poverty. However, the poverty gap is still so steep in this country (as compared to that of other similarly developed countries) that I cannot understand why the concept of a safety net for the most vulnerable is controversial... - Healthcare policy. This is perhaps the most glaring example of the above. I would argue that something just has to be done. How can it be that urban infant mortality rates in US cities is sometimes worse than that of some cities in developing countries? (I'm citing something I read in a mainstream newspaper, don't have the original sources to back it up, but I wouldn't take the easy route and dismiss this as some new lie from the "liberal media"). - Illegal Immigration. Ok, I'm not impartial. I'm Mexican and the plight of my countrymen hurts me deeply. Yes, I recognize that the issue is a reflection of the failure of the Mexican society and government to provide enough jobs for its citizens. But it is also the result of the laws of the market based on very evident economic realities (willing workers seeking better paying available jobs to further their lives). That these individuals are breaking the law does not escape me, but (as in the case of looters that scavanged food in the Katrina disaster) I make an important distinction between law breakers that are pursuing a better way of life and most often are otherwise hard working and law abiding (I'm sure there are exceptions). Also, many of these illegal immigrants are actually paying social security taxes (that they can't benefit from) and indirectly paying property taxes (through rents), and more importantly are providing services that are valued by this society. I'm not for the status quo of keeping a blind eye and ignoring the issue, but why does the word amnesty need to be a bad word among conservatives?

I'm really looking forward to establishing some productive exchange of ideas. Not looking to change your hearts and minds (that might be too much), but just to understand your points of view better and maybe help you understand mine.

Sincerely,


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; Health/Medicine; Miscellaneous; Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: adios; badtrollopus; bohica; damnedtroll; eltrollo; freepersdebatelol; freepersdontdebate; fromhomedepopkglot; fue; inadvertentopus; nuked; zot
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1 posted on 09/16/2005 10:49:22 PM PDT by Gustavo
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To: Gustavo

Boorrrinnnggg.

Start your own forum, (admitted) TROLL.


2 posted on 09/16/2005 10:57:07 PM PDT by Carling (http://www.marriedadults.com/howarddeanscreamaudio141jq.mp3)
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To: Gustavo

You are SUCH a loser!
I joined in March of 2001 but it took me till July of 2004 to post.

What makes you think you're good enough to be recognized?

Answer if you dare, troll...


3 posted on 09/16/2005 10:58:06 PM PDT by Monkey Face (Do the voices in my head bother you?)
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To: Gustavo

Don't know if you'll last as returning trolls are usually Zotted right away.

But at any rate...Hi...welcome to FR


4 posted on 09/16/2005 11:00:12 PM PDT by trussell (Prayers for the children!)
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To: Gustavo
Instead, would it be posible to actually start a dialogue of some sort?

Not likely. I'd suggest lurking some more, you've got a lot of learning to do.

For example, I bet every one of the "circumstance" differences you mentioned are shared with someone here. It is bigoted of you to suggest otherwise.

I suppose on income redistribution you'd rather have a flat distribution like your native country. Oh, but you fled that country for the better life here. As I said,lurk some more until you figure out that the answer to planes flying 40,000 feet hight than people can jump is not to ground the planes, it is to rejoice that we figured out how to fly.

In before the Zot?

5 posted on 09/16/2005 11:02:01 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Gustavo

Other points of dissent include: - Poverty and income redistribution.

That is definitely trollspeak.

6 posted on 09/16/2005 11:02:42 PM PDT by quantim (Detroit is the New Orleans of the North as an example of a failed welfare state.)
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To: Gustavo

I don't think your left-wing views will be very welcome, no matter if you're a nice guy or not. And you seem to be a nice guy.


7 posted on 09/16/2005 11:02:58 PM PDT by SerpentDove (Sen. Landrieu on the flooded buses: "This administration doesn't believe in mass transit.")
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To: Gustavo
Thanks for the thoughtful, if long, post. The problem is that FR is not a forum to propose such a dialog. It's a forum for people with an aligned world view. That's not to say there is any kind of uniformity of opinion - clearly there is not.

So ultimately, apart from the similarities and differences you chronicle, so you think your world view is basically aligned with the basic world view of most on FR? If yes, then you can contribute here without issue. If not, the truth is you aren't welcome. That's not a free speech issue or anything: the intent here is for like minded people to compare notes and commentate, not for opening a dialog. Frankly, I have no idea what made you think that was the mandate at all.

PS - That was a long vanity post, Gustavo.
8 posted on 09/16/2005 11:03:48 PM PDT by HitmanLV
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To: trussell

Technically he's not a returning troll because he never got zotted before -- his account is still from october of last year.

However, isn't it also customary to zot people whose first post is a vanity about how much they can teach freepers about how wrong they are?

Especially when they spend half of their post bashing america, after admitting they fled their own god-forsaken country.


9 posted on 09/16/2005 11:04:16 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Gustavo
Who cares if you were a former troll or not. Only someone ignorant and truly pathetic will shut out or shout down someone with a differing view.
It takes a true intellect to formulate a coherent, relevant and well reasoned argument in defense of their positions. You can only do that when someone disagrees with you.
10 posted on 09/16/2005 11:04:29 PM PDT by martywake (making the world a better place, one dead terrorist at a time)
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To: martywake
It takes a true intellect to formulate a coherent, relevant and well reasoned argument in defense of their positions. You can only do that when someone disagrees with you.

Not really, that's not the 'only' way to formulate coherent, relevant, and well reasoned arguments.

In any case, as I said, there is no unanimity of opinion on FR, never has been. There is a widely aligned world view of its membership. That consensus binds us, though that's not to say there is uniformity of opinion, or a notable lack of disagreement. Anyone can see on any given day that there is a lot of disagreement on FR, but still a largely aligned world view.

11 posted on 09/16/2005 11:08:09 PM PDT by HitmanLV
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To: Gustavo
Hmmm... where to begin?

Hang out, read, learn. The UN does far more evil than good. Put the UN in charge and there's genocide in Rwanda, genocide in Sudan, nukes in North Korea and Iran, child sex scandals, money laundering on an unprecedented scale. It allows tyrannies to act on equal terms with representative goverments, as if they were equally legitimate. It's profoundly anti-Semitic and overtly supports terrorists in Israel. Search keyword: Oil for Food

The US, on the other hand, has done far more good than evil. We have established the independence of the Western hemishphere from colonial European domination, abolished slavery, defeated both fascism and communism, and maintained the freedom of half the world for over half a century. If you want to take a look at the Cold War as a whole, do you really doubt that those nations on the US side were freer and more prosperous than those on the Soviets'?

12 posted on 09/16/2005 11:08:12 PM PDT by thoughtomator (Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. - Patrick Henry)
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To: Gustavo
You got it. ZOT
13 posted on 09/16/2005 11:10:00 PM PDT by Ursus arctos horribilis ("It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" Emiliano Zapata 1879-1919)
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To: Gustavo
Once a troll, always a troll.

Once a knight is enough.

Or something.......

Leni

14 posted on 09/16/2005 11:14:14 PM PDT by MinuteGal
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To: Gustavo; Darksheare

what you mistake is that people here want to hear a left wing version of things.. we don't need that in house. that is what we have the MSM for... and for whipping boys for us we have the usual misfits from the DU that stumble in here like yourself... I am guess that your time among us is now very short.. watch out for the copper rods and your depature should be shocking... and spectacular (for us at least.)


15 posted on 09/16/2005 11:15:00 PM PDT by Americanwolf (U.S. Navy Veteran.....93-97 Clinton I want my trip to Australia! I had to go to China you pervert!)
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To: King Prout

troll opus aisle 1


16 posted on 09/16/2005 11:16:10 PM PDT by Americanwolf (U.S. Navy Veteran.....93-97 Clinton I want my trip to Australia! I had to go to China you pervert!)
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To: Gustavo

Hmmmm.....I am, for once, at a total loss of words. On the other hand, your post is irritating/intriguing enough that I am going to respond anyway. You throw your leftist ideas and blame the USA (or the market or whatever) for the problems in the governance of Mexico.

As a previous poster noted, this is a forum for those with a fairly homogeneous view. We have our differences (illegal immigration, evolution/creation, FEMA, and some others). However, our differing views do not include an embrace of communism or income redistribution.

ZOT!!!!!!!


17 posted on 09/16/2005 11:20:01 PM PDT by indcons (Koran - The World's First WMD)
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To: Gustavo

It's not polite to post an opus and run.


18 posted on 09/16/2005 11:20:35 PM PDT by digger48
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To: Gustavo
I'm sure many of you have done the same on leftists sites.

Actually............no.

19 posted on 09/16/2005 11:21:50 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If you think you know what's coming next....You don't know Jack.)
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To: Gustavo
This forum if for Conservatives only. If you want to "talk" with others, go to DU (Democrat Underground). You are not wanted here, troll.

And FYI...if you care so much for the poor, give them all of your money; yes, all of it! Or, better still, go back to Mexico. The poor here are wealthy, compared to the poor there.

20 posted on 09/16/2005 11:25:24 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Am I in before the Zot?


21 posted on 09/16/2005 11:26:19 PM PDT by sfimom ((under construction))
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To: Gustavo
I have a couple of questions for you.

"I'm actually a church-going, bible-believing, born-again evangelical Christian"

Tell me who is Jesus Christ and what denomination of church you belong to.

"my father has distinctly left wing views and, although he's never been a militant, he participated in leftwing anti-government demonstrations in the 60s in Mexico while attending med school, and actually spent about 6 months in jail as a political prisoner"

What was the charge against your father and what Mexican penitentiary did he serve in?
22 posted on 09/16/2005 11:26:31 PM PDT by DocRock (Osama said, "We love death, the U.S. loves life, that is the main difference between us.")
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To: sfimom

LOL just under the wire. Buh bye now.


23 posted on 09/16/2005 11:28:33 PM PDT by sfimom ((under construction))
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To: sfimom

Yes, you are. :-)


24 posted on 09/16/2005 11:28:56 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Gustavo; Darksheare; Jet Jaguar; Admin Moderator

We have a live troll here.


25 posted on 09/16/2005 11:30:49 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Not anymore.


26 posted on 09/16/2005 11:31:21 PM PDT by decal ("The Republic was not established by cowards, and cowards will not preserve it")
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To: nopardons

Nah it's just still twitching in it's death throes.


27 posted on 09/16/2005 11:32:01 PM PDT by sfimom ((under construction))
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To: Gustavo

Told ya. So long, now.


28 posted on 09/16/2005 11:33:42 PM PDT by SerpentDove (Sen. Landrieu on the flooded buses: "This administration doesn't believe in mass transit.")
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To: decal
Yes, I see; but he was "alive", when I posted. LOL

Let the paving begin! I've got the fire going under the tar pots. :-)

29 posted on 09/16/2005 11:33:51 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Gustavo

You frickin' IDIOT!
30 posted on 09/16/2005 11:34:39 PM PDT by Echo Talon (http://echotalon.blogspot.com)
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To: sfimom

Not even that...I cut his head off and put it on a pike, on the castle wall.


31 posted on 09/16/2005 11:34:53 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

ROFL! Where's Vlad when ya need him?


32 posted on 09/16/2005 11:36:01 PM PDT by sfimom (Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.)
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To: sfimom

Nearer than you think; I'm as blood thirsty. LOL


33 posted on 09/16/2005 11:37:21 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
"I've got the fire going under the tar pots.."

Ah, yes, so I see...


34 posted on 09/16/2005 11:38:46 PM PDT by decal ("The Republic was not established by cowards, and cowards will not preserve it")
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To: decal
Marvelous sterioptican slide!

LET THE PAVING BEGIN !

35 posted on 09/16/2005 11:42:00 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Yeah, isn't this the perfect pic for post-zot posts?

I think I'll keep this one.


36 posted on 09/16/2005 11:43:46 PM PDT by decal ("The Republic was not established by cowards, and cowards will not preserve it")
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To: decal

It's wonderful and a real keeper! Just what RKBA needs. :-)


37 posted on 09/16/2005 11:47:18 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Just because...

SLURP

38 posted on 09/16/2005 11:51:23 PM PDT by Capn TrVth
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To: Gustavo

"I also realize that "handouts" tend to create perverse incentives that can perpetuate poverty. However, the poverty gap is still so steep in this country (as compared to that of other similarly developed countries) that I cannot understand why the concept of a safety net for the most vulnerable is controversial... - Healthcare policy."

Americans are the most generous people in the world. And we do have numerous safety nets for those less fortunate. We even understand the need. Some great American - I've forgotten who - once said we need a safety net but not a hammock.

Good intentions are taken advantage of by those who try to beat the system. Study the effects socialism has had in the countries you have mentioned above.

You will find a greater disparity between the haves and the havenots under socialism. The problem in that system is that the havenots have less opportunity to rise. Not so under capitalism - where people can one day reap the benefits of their hard work.

If you lived in Tennessee you would witness the adverse effect state health care has had on our state's economy.


39 posted on 09/16/2005 11:51:28 PM PDT by wingman1 (University of Vietnam 1970. Forget? Hell.)
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To: Gustavo
I'm also a law abiding citizen and all for the rule of law and order.

Then you are no Bill/Hillary Clinton.

40 posted on 09/16/2005 11:53:41 PM PDT by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: Capn TrVth

Aaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...what an adorable kitty! I just love cats! :-)


41 posted on 09/16/2005 11:55:18 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Gustavo

HA HA!

42 posted on 09/17/2005 12:00:45 AM PDT by SIDENET (Nothing produces the quite same reaction as the sighting of a large, flying cockroach.)
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To: nopardons

43 posted on 09/17/2005 12:15:39 AM PDT by DocRock (Osama said, "We love death, the U.S. loves life, that is the main difference between us.")
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To: DocRock
Oh how nice...my pavers have arrived and what nice boys they are. :-)

And as the Queen Mum of RKBA, I approve of their splendid uniforms and equipment.

44 posted on 09/17/2005 12:19:28 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons; SandyInSeattle

: ) You can ping "Sandy in Seattle" to plant a nice shrub anytime there is a good paving.


45 posted on 09/17/2005 12:22:35 AM PDT by DocRock (Osama said, "We love death, the U.S. loves life, that is the main difference between us.")
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To: DocRock
Night all, Zots make me sleepy... *yawn*
46 posted on 09/17/2005 12:23:16 AM PDT by DocRock (Osama said, "We love death, the U.S. loves life, that is the main difference between us.")
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To: DocRock

Ah yes, she is the *kinglet* of shrubbery. :-)


47 posted on 09/17/2005 12:25:13 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: DocRock

Nighty night....pleasant dreams.


48 posted on 09/17/2005 12:25:41 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: Gustavo
I got carried away in the run-up to the last election and lurked and trolled at Free Republic for a while. I am sorry I did this. I realize it was pathetic and deceitful. It was also not very productive. Please be lenient. I'm sure many of you have done the same on leftists sites

I posted 2 or 3 times at DU about 3 or 4 years ago, then I figured "Why waste time there, where the folks just keep rehashing the same tired arguments."

The discussions on FR have so much more depth and breadth and have better research to back them up.

49 posted on 09/17/2005 12:32:26 AM PDT by syriacus (To stay in power, Democrats need a MSM willing to lie about people + events + the constitution)
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To: Carling
I promise I will Troll no longer

Not now. The bosses know who you are.

50 posted on 09/17/2005 1:15:14 AM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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