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School Question about Katrina and Taxes
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Posted on 10/09/2005 8:35:58 PM PDT by sofiakp89

I am 16 years old and in the speech and debate team at my high school. Our current topic for debate is: "Should the United States federal government fund Hurricane Katrina relief and rebuilding by ending President Bush's tax cuts?" I strongly disagree with the proposition, but I need more evidence and reasons to back up my argument. Suggestions and facts would be greatly appreciated!!


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Society
KEYWORDS: diarama; doyourownwork; homeworkassignment; keynesianeconomics; newbievanity; notazot; reaganomics; supplysidetheory; ternpaper; trickledowntheory; welcometofr; zot
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1 posted on 10/09/2005 8:36:02 PM PDT by sofiakp89
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To: sofiakp89

I smell something akin to sulphur........


2 posted on 10/09/2005 8:40:41 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo
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To: sofiakp89

IBTZ


3 posted on 10/09/2005 8:42:34 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: Americanwolf

Yeah, I was on a debate team, not "in" one.


4 posted on 10/09/2005 8:43:57 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo
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To: sofiakp89
hmm when i debated in high school we were suppose to have our evidence from legit sources like magazines and papers not websites...

plus since when does a school change debate topics mid term...

bye bye troll...
5 posted on 10/09/2005 8:44:10 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: sofiakp89; Admin Moderator
poser troll.... can I keep the pelt when the zotting is done?
6 posted on 10/09/2005 8:44:54 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

exactly... and the arguments are determined well before the school year starts... they don't change them base on current events.


7 posted on 10/09/2005 8:45:58 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: sofiakp89

uh-oh better check my surge protector.
NB4theZOT


8 posted on 10/09/2005 8:46:41 PM PDT by txroadkill
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To: txroadkill

yeah if you are going to stick around remove any metal too... you don't want to catch any spillover...


9 posted on 10/09/2005 8:47:45 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: sofiakp89; trussell

fresh meat! hurry before the frying... :)


10 posted on 10/09/2005 8:48:29 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: sofiakp89

Its not a tax cut when it is our money in the first place. The proper way to phrase the question would be; should the president raise taxes to fund Katrina hurricane relief? Don’t you people take English classes anymore?


11 posted on 10/09/2005 8:48:33 PM PDT by seastay
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To: sofiakp89

Hey, now! Sofia is my daughter. Please, be nice. I told her about the nice people on this web site. I tried to give her some starting points, but I thought that she should talk to the experts.


12 posted on 10/09/2005 8:48:42 PM PDT by tarator
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To: tarator; sofiakp89
my sincerest apologies then... usually we get the posers that try to frame questions like that and the flame people on the answers...
13 posted on 10/09/2005 8:50:14 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: sofiakp89

NB4TZ!!


14 posted on 10/09/2005 8:50:32 PM PDT by trussell (Hello, my name is Utter...Utter Chaos)
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To: Americanwolf

No problem. The topic is quite assinine, but that's public high schools for you...


15 posted on 10/09/2005 8:51:26 PM PDT by tarator
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To: trussell

check post 12 my bad...


16 posted on 10/09/2005 8:51:44 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: Americanwolf

Thank you for the ping! I don't often get in before they are zotted!


17 posted on 10/09/2005 8:51:50 PM PDT by trussell (Hello, my name is Utter...Utter Chaos)
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To: Americanwolf

Got it...thank you, I will go make my apology.


18 posted on 10/09/2005 8:52:52 PM PDT by trussell (Hello, my name is Utter...Utter Chaos)
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To: sofiakp89

Sorry for assuming you were trolling.


19 posted on 10/09/2005 8:55:09 PM PDT by trussell (Hello, my name is Utter...Utter Chaos)
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To: tarator

20 posted on 10/09/2005 8:58:50 PM PDT by txroadkill
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To: sofiakp89
With the tax cuts, they act to stimulate the economy. Because it puts more money into the pockets of the taxpayers, they in turn spend more either on goods or services which increase the money that business have and that increases the amount of taxes that are eventually paid via the business...

That is a very basic economic overview of how I understand the tax cuts to work..

If we were to eliminate the tax cuts to create a temporary increase in the tax money the federal government received from the taxes it would cause the economy to slow down, and stagnate.. which would cause prices to rise creating inflation.

If that occurred the monies need to rebuild the Gulf Coast area would be harder in the long run for the fed to recoup..

That is a very basic argument again the tax cut unfortunately I have no place to really tell you where you can get the data to support this, perhaps some of the other freepers may have a better direction or a clear explanation.
21 posted on 10/09/2005 8:59:43 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: sofiakp89

So how much taxes do you 16-year old high school students pay and how much do you expect to get back with the tax cuts?


22 posted on 10/09/2005 9:06:27 PM PDT by FDNYRHEROES (Liberals are not optimistic; they are delusional.)
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To: Americanwolf

You mean legit sources like the LA Times, USA Today, Washington Post, New York Times, 60 Minutes, AP, bwaah ha ha, I can't go on!


23 posted on 10/09/2005 9:06:29 PM PDT by weegee (The lesson from New Orleans? Smart Growth kills. You can't evacuate dense populations easily.)
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To: FDNYRHEROES

I think his complaint is that "rich" people will get more tax dollars back than he will get.


24 posted on 10/09/2005 9:07:16 PM PDT by weegee (The lesson from New Orleans? Smart Growth kills. You can't evacuate dense populations easily.)
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To: sofiakp89

Here's a good reason that the tax cuts should not be rescinded. The tax cuts have INCREASED the revenue to the federal government. The recession we just came out of was shorter and milder due to the cutting of taxes.

The reason cutting taxes is not totally sucessful is that the government proceeds to spend the additonal revenue and thus the increased revenue is not always apparent to a citizen who doesn't read the statistics or understand the economics of taxation. Both Republicans and Democrats in the current congress have spent wrecklessly. Fiscal discipline would be far more effective than higher taxes!

Pres. Regan cut taxes as well and the federal revenue increased. But, he also served with a congress that increased spending and so it "appeared" that tax cuts caused increased deficits, when, in fact, they were caused by increased federal spending.

Raising taxes at this time will hurt the economy even more than it is has been hurt by the war and natural disasters.

If your teacher learns nothing else, perhaps he/she could understand that reallocating income [which is what higher taxes really do] is far less efficient than letting the free market solve the problems that arise. You can compare the Post Office with United Parcel Service (UPS) to show the difference between private and public funding.

Hope this helps a little; at least you are on the right side of the discussion. 8)


25 posted on 10/09/2005 9:08:14 PM PDT by FOXFANVOX (Tony Snow Fan!)
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To: weegee
no actually... like... a good economics web site..or a freeper that actually understands the tax cuts better then I do...

If the kid is legit... (ref: post 12..)

and is on a debate team they are going to have to cite their sources.... just trying to help out after making and Arse out of my self... thats all... :)
26 posted on 10/09/2005 9:09:51 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: FOXFANVOX

Thanks... I kind stumble through something like that... :)


27 posted on 10/09/2005 9:11:01 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: Americanwolf

A better way to finance this would be to target some extra tax breaks for companies who rebuild...plus, the LA and NO pols can't steal tax breaks.


28 posted on 10/09/2005 9:11:08 PM PDT by steve8714
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To: steve8714
"the LA and NO pols can't steal tax breaks" That is going to be the big thing, how do they keep the corruption to a minimum... That is why I think the house and senate really need to think out the amount they are going to give to NO and LA...and how they are going to do it... if you give straight cash it is as good as gone.
29 posted on 10/09/2005 9:13:42 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: Americanwolf

I understand and did not mean to take issue with your recommendation.

I DO take issue with the basic library resources at many schools that offer the long since discredited basic daily and weekly publications I mentioned above.

I am not talking mere bias, I am referring to their exposed lies, fraud, and hoaxed news items and sources.

They are completely untrustworthy as a reference point in my mind. You can consider the "facts" in those publications but should also consider the source and seek additional information before running with the detail for justification on either side of an argument.


30 posted on 10/09/2005 9:15:10 PM PDT by weegee (The lesson from New Orleans? Smart Growth kills. You can't evacuate dense populations easily.)
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To: tarator

Hey, what's your daughter doing up at almost midnight!

Just kidding. Hope post #25 helps give her some starting points. Nice that at least she is not asked to write or debate about Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt.


31 posted on 10/09/2005 9:15:16 PM PDT by FOXFANVOX (Tony Snow Fan!)
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To: Americanwolf

I understand and agree with the general idea that tax cuts stimulate the economy and I also know that the topic for debate is pretty much b.s., but I have to make a case by tomorrow. I was just looking for more specific facts and am not really sure where to search. Thank you for trying to help, though.


32 posted on 10/09/2005 9:16:16 PM PDT by sofiakp89
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To: sofiakp89
Ask Williams That's a list of his writings on tax policy. I'd guess taxaiton 101 would be a good place to start. Walter William's home page has a search engine to retrieve his excellent writings on various econ topics.

If taxes are raised now, the economy will suffer. What will happen is that money will be taken out of present commercial channels all of a sudden and those businesses will suffer. Jobs will be lost and bills won't get paid. That means tax revenues will drop.

The money then goes to pay laborers and for supplies to rebuild, but then since taxes are higher, the rebuild costs more than the taxes were raised. The temporary boost for them that amounts to inflationary pressure, because demand hasn't really changed and the rebuild is not really producing economic output... yet.

You can also google Milton Freidman, University of Chicago, economics...

33 posted on 10/09/2005 9:23:50 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: Americanwolf
hmm when i debated in high school we were suppose to have our evidence from legit sources like magazines and papers not websites...bye bye troll...

"... legit sources like magazines and papers...."

Did you forget your < /sarcasm> tag?

Times have changed.

"Magazines and newspapers" are no longer "legit sources ". They are merely soapboxes for political agendas.

We, on the other hand, are not merely a "website".

We are a collection of thousands of conservative minds with real world experience who just happened to usher Dan Rather into retirement.

Give the kid a break.

She chose to ask us rather than trust Time, Newsweek or the New York Times.

34 posted on 10/09/2005 9:25:44 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: sofiakp89

no problem best of luck!


35 posted on 10/09/2005 9:29:46 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: Polybius

If you had taken time to read down the thread I appologized... or perhaps like i was, you were quick to jump... I appologized and tried to help.. so perhaps we should all take a few minutes are read on before we jump again.


36 posted on 10/09/2005 9:34:03 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: Polybius

Check posts 13 and 21


37 posted on 10/09/2005 9:35:11 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: weegee
"am not talking mere bias, I am referring to their exposed lies, fraud, and hoaxed news items and sources."

I will not argue with that fact at all If you go back and read some of my past posts... I constantly rail against the MSM and their yellow journalism...(It is a shame that so much of the crap the MSM puts out is acceptable as legit news.) :)

38 posted on 10/09/2005 9:48:22 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: All
Thank you all for welcoming Sofia to FR and for the useful information. It's not easy being a 16-years old with a conservative world view.

Now, most of the answers here revolve around the idea that reducing taxes leads to economy growth and indirectly to increased budget revenues. This may be correct, but saying "we should have a smaller government now, so that we can have a much bigger government 5 years down the road" is not very conservative.

Where does Congress draw authority to tax us in order to provide for disaster relief in the first place? What ever happended to "Not yours to give"?

39 posted on 10/09/2005 9:48:40 PM PDT by tarator
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To: sofiakp89
I understand and agree with the general idea that tax cuts stimulate the economy and I also know that the topic for debate is pretty much b.s.,....

Watch your "b.s." language, young lady. Your Dad is lurking. ;-)

but I have to make a case by tomorrow. I was just looking for more specific facts and am not really sure where to search. Thank you for trying to help, though.

It is a "b.s." topic, however, as it seems a question specifically designed to embarrass President Bush.

While such a tactic might be fair game in politics, it is not fair game in a public school civics class when 16 year olds are asked to refute it.

I would turn the embarrassment right back at them.

Point out that the taxes on "The Rich" that John Kerry talked about so much were really taxes on working people. Only "income", not "wealth" is taxed.

If the school Principal's spouse made just as much money as the principal did, that family would be considered "Rich" by Kerry's rhetoric.

The truly "Rich", however, do not pay taxes on their wealth. The truly "Rich" do not need jobs. If they work, it is merely a power trip, as in Kerry's case, or a hobby.

Teresa Heinz, John Kerry's wife, inherited over $550 million, tax free, at the death of her Republican Senator husband.

John Kerry, is living off of that $550 million as Teresa Heinz's husband and paying no taxes on that wealth as it is not "income".

In your debate, propose that the hundreds of millions of dollars of wealth owned by the Kennedy's and Teresa Heinz be taxed for Katrina relief.

Whether or not a Wealth Tax is a good idea is another can of worms.

However, on short notice, that tack will serve the purpose of embarrasing those who tried to embarrass President Bush with a cheap shot.

40 posted on 10/09/2005 9:51:27 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: Americanwolf
If you had taken time to read down the thread I appologized... or perhaps like i was, you were quick to jump...

Plead guilty to quick jumping. :-)

41 posted on 10/09/2005 9:53:20 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: Polybius
LOL! :)

thats the other great thing i like about freepers, most of the time when we pull our bonehead maneuvers we can fess up to it... :)
42 posted on 10/09/2005 9:55:33 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: Americanwolf

In a recent thread, polls by state showed that the American people oppose this idea, even in blue states.


43 posted on 10/09/2005 11:04:47 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: ClaireSolt

oppose what? fessing up to our mistakes... :)


44 posted on 10/09/2005 11:10:48 PM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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To: sofiakp89
I'm not sure exactly what info you are looking for but these 3 sites have some decent discussion that you may be able to use:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/jan-june01/tax_2-5.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_luskin/luskin032803.asp

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_nypost-bushs_tax_cut.htm

The idea is that for consumers tax cuts mean more spendable money that they will pump back into the economy (assumption is they will spend it rather than save it); while on the business side lower taxes means lower costs for the company so either 1) savings are passed onto the consumer in the form of lower cost for goods and services; or 2) company will reinvest extra money into the business in either expanding the business or giving raises to the employees of said company.

There is also the euphoria principle (I don't remember what the economist call it ) which is people will feel better because they feel less pressure from their tax obligations.

try a google search for "President Bush tax cuts" and you will get a ton of info to cull through. AWB
45 posted on 10/09/2005 11:27:44 PM PDT by Americanwolfsbrother (Don't hate on someone for using their mind.)
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To: sofiakp89

46 posted on 10/09/2005 11:33:48 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: sofiakp89; EggsAckley; Constitution Day; Arrowhead1952; Tijeras_Slim

Extra-credit moose diarama

47 posted on 10/09/2005 11:44:48 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: sofiakp89; tuffydoodle
With respect to rebuilding New Orleans, put this in your paper...

"I'd say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." You'll get an "A", trust me.
48 posted on 10/10/2005 5:11:15 AM PDT by Maximus of Texas (Pull my finger)
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To: sofiakp89
IBTZ!!!!!

I was 15 years old over on DU last week. What a coincidence!

49 posted on 10/10/2005 5:24:00 AM PDT by grellis (Coming in September 2006! SURVIVOR: MORDOR)
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To: grellis

might want to check post 12... parent is a long time freeper...
:)


50 posted on 10/10/2005 8:01:25 AM PDT by Americanwolf (I Served proudly.... how dare you tell me I have no convictions...)
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