You know, no matter how English Victoria is, nothing beats our own Christchurch in being the most English city outside the British Isles itself! LOL
Posted on 02/23/2006 2:44:29 PM PST by NZerFromHK
Does anyone have a summary of what proportions of Americans with British and Irish ancestry? I'm currently looking at the data for New Zealand and I note that in the 2001 Census, it was recorded 75% of all New Zealanders have majority British/Irish ancestry, and 5% have European ancestry from outside Britain and/or Ireland. Maori comprises 14.7% and Pacific Islanders 6.5%.
The definition of British/Irish ancestry that I use is: anyone who has 50% or more ancestral blood who came from what we call the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland today.
In addition, does anyone have a comparable set of figures for the cases of Canada and Australia as well?
Thanks for your help.
Ping! I need some help for a few demographic questions for the US, Canada and Australia. Any of your help will be much appreciated.
Curious about this one myself.
I had a look at the table provided here:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_QTP13&-geo_id=01000US&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-_sse=on
It seems that if I add "British", "American", "Scottish", "Welsh", "Irish", "Scots-Irish", "English", and unspecified ancestry (adjusting it by probability that they are German or Italian ancestry) together, it seems not more than 35% of all Americans have majority British/Irish ancestry. Not sure if my guess proves correct.
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1249.02005-06?OpenDocument
Perhaps this link might be helpful?
I know that there were a large number of Welsh in my states (Michigan) upper penninsula at one time. Mostly miners from what I can find. I live in an area called the Irish hills, so I'm assuming there was a fair sized Irish population here. I'm German and grew up in a town named after Hanover Germany.
We were a pretty diverse european bunch here.
Out of a total U.S. population of 281.4 million as of the 2000 census, about 115.1 million Americans have roots in the British Isles, assuming those that did not identify their national origin were equally distributed among the population.
This sounds semsible - although I also know some German, Scandinavian or Dutch descents also use the general "American" label in the census and so the figure could be a little lower?
It looks quite astonishing when comparing the set of data between New Zealand and the United States: overwhelming of New Zealand Europeans have majority British/Irish ancestry, while it is not so for American whites.
New Zealand and Australia were part of the British Empire and are still members of the British Commonwealth, as is Canada, while America became independent in 1776. As a result, there was greater attraction for British settlers to nations under the Union Jack and less of one for non-British Europeans. Additionally, both the U.S. and Canada are closer to Europe than are Australia and New Zealand. With respect to Dutch and German preference for America as opposed to the British Empire/Commonwealth nations, you must remember that there was a strong Dutch and German presence in colonial America, concentrated in the Middle Atlantic colonies of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Even today, the concentration of German Americans in Pennsylvania is one of the highest in the nation.
It varies a good deal by region. Lots of Germans in Texas, for example. Quite a few Norwegians in the Northwest. Lots of Johnsons everywhere!
There was also a lot of discrimination on non-British Europeans on the part of New Zealand. There were a number of documents in the government archives at Wellington's National Library that showed post-WWII New Zealand governments discouraged Italians, Greeks, and German immigrants because culturally "they are imcompatible with the values and life of a majority of New Zealanders". Dutch and Scandinavians were reluctantly admitted since there were fairly similar to British.
Policies were in place to favour British/Irish migrants right up to the 1970s. Until 1977 any British and Irish national landing in New Zealand could register and become a NZ citizen. At times the New Zealand government even paid for the entire cost of voyage from Britain or Ireland: they were called "10-pound migrants". It has always been said that New Zealand is a kin migrant country, and that it is not a New World country but rather, a New Britain.
The largest category is German at a whopping 15%. English only comes in at 8%. Irish is a huge category as well.
Thanks, although I must confess the list of figures looks confusing at times! LOL
I found anotehr source that implies the results from 2001 Census indicates 71% of all Australians are Anglo-Celtic (British/Irish) while 92% are whites, meaning 21% of Australians are non-British/Irish European in ancestry.
Last I read was 25% of Aussie citizens were post-WW2 migrants and their descendants. Don't remember the source.
The data in the Canadian census in 2001 gives an incomplete picture as many people refused to answer ancestry information. A cursory search on the net shows "4 out of 9 Canadians have majority British descent" while 12.9% reports majority Irish descents.
This gives about 57% of all Canadians as British/Irish descent. Minus French (30%) this means 81% of all "English Canadians" are British/Irish in descent. The figures do look interesting.
I suspect it is an an art of inexact science to analyse census results about ancestry. Many refuse to answer what their major ancestry was, and many may answer he has English, Irish, and German descent and it could constitute three counts in the census results.
Having said this, non-British/Irish descent Australians with European ancestries constitute 20's percents of Australian population sounds right.
If you create a "metaethnicity" of all Germanic language speakers in continental Europe (German s, Dutch, Swiss, Austrians, Flemish, Alsatians, German-Russians), there are about 50 million Americans of a Germanic metaethnicity in the U.S., about 21% of the population.
(mumbling)...mrf*8^#@...ungrateful Kiwi git!
Just kidding of course..;-)
Ayy...disregard my previous post.
I really should read threads before I post..arrrggghhhh.
1. German 42,841,569 15.2%
2. Irish 30,524,799 10.8
3. African American1 24,903,412 8.8
4. English 24,509,692 8.7
5. American 20,188,305 7.2
6. Mexican 18,382,291 6.5
7. Italian 15,638,348 5.6
8. Polish 8,977,235 3.2
9. French 8,309,666 3.0
10. American Indian1 7,876,568 2.8
Americans of English ancestry have been a minority since the late 19th century. Even if you ad Irish and Scottish, they are still a minority.
I grew up in the suburbs of NYC and didn't meet one person of English ancestry as a kid.
Following British (English) practice from the 19th century onwards, in New Zealand it is unusual to separate the constitutent peoples of the United Kingdom and count them separately. They are often collectively lumped as British and often even Irish are added into the pot and treated as the same.
In New Zealand's national consciousness it seems we have four major groups: British/Irish dexcent New Zealand Europeans (Pakeha), Maori, Pacific Islanders, other European descents, other ethnic groups (Chinese, Indians, etc).
We are not as Anglo as you think.
I remember getting a summer job at a well known power company here in Auckland as a part of my degree requirement. One of the co-interns was also from the same class and he has a German last name. We met one of the permanent staff that had the same German last name as him and it turns out that my friend's great-grandfather is brother (or cousin) of the gentleman's father. They said that there are so few New Zealanders whose ancesters came from Austria that each and every one could be traced to the same three or four migrant families.
The political and economic turmoil of 19th Century Germany motivated mass migration to the United States. Additionally, the 19th Century immigration wave included large numbers of German Catholics, which had not been the case in colonial times. West of Chicago, the Catholic hierarchy, historically Irish from Chicago east, takes on a decidedly German flavor. Most of the German immigrants, whether Catholic, Lutheran, or Reformed, settled in the Upper Midwest. Almost one-half of Wisconsin residents have German roots. Except for Texas, this wave of German immigration had little effect on the South.
As for Canada, I thought significant numbers of Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, and Slavs had migrated to the Prairie Provinces. Wasn't one of their Prime Ministers have the German or Dutch sounding name Diefenbaker?
From what I seem to grasp of scant knowledge of Canadian history, the non-British/Irish origin "English" Canadian had (and has) never been able to get into positions of power. The ruling elites have always been British (not even Irish) on the side of English Canada, and of course complemented by French Canadians.
One of the reasons seem to be that Germans are scattered between Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatcheswan, and Alberta and within Ontario, they don't concentrate in Toronto but rather Windsor or Kitchener. This proved fatal because English Canadian politics begins and ends in Ontario and particularly Toronto. In Toronto the British descents have been in levers of powers and it was them who controlled the blue machines which delivered Conservative (capital C - they are paternalist High Tory types) governments from World War I right up to 1984.
"I grew up in the suburbs of NYC and didn't meet one person of English ancestry as a kid."
Have you seen this map?
http://www.missouriscenicrivers.com/ancestrymap.JPG
Also a curious question: how do British/Irish descents view otehr white European Americans? In New Zealand there were reports of prejudice from British/Irish towards non-British/Irish descent European New Zealanders well into the early 1990s. I have observed that many people unsonsciously classify British/Irish and non-British/Irish descents even now.
The Lowland/Highland split is one between Germanic Anglians (including Anglicized Picts and Britons) and Celtic Gaels, whose remote forbears originated in Ireland, though with considerable Viking and Norman mixture. Despite their cultural and linguistic differences, both Highlanders and Lowlanders were predominantly Calvinist by the time of their migrations to America. Whether Lowlander, Highlander, or Scots-Irish, their concepts of liberty of conscience and the duties of rulers to be subject to law strongly impacted the formation of this republic.
Diefenbaker is probably the exception. Not positive if he is German?
Things may now be changing in Canada. More power devolved to the provinces may help move Canada away from the regional conflict.
Wow. What a new perspective on America. Irish is a whopping 11%!
I certainly do have some cautious hopes now - New Zealand is overwhelming British (chiefly English) and people just love the welfare state. Western Canada seems more diverse than British descents so there could be more clear-minded people.
You know, no matter how English Victoria is, nothing beats our own Christchurch in being the most English city outside the British Isles itself! LOL
What you describe illustrates the effects of birth control. In the Northeast, the Catholic immigrants and their second and third generation descendants had large families while the descendants of English and Dutch colonial settlers had small families. As a result, Italian Americans are the largest ethnic group in most of New Jersey and downstate New York while Irish Americans are the majority in most counties of southern New England. Of couse, Catholic birthrates declined after Vatican II.
Note that Presbyterians concentrate on the southern parts of the South Island (the island on the right on this map - Christchurch is just above the "tip" at the middle of the South Island's eastern coast, while Dunedin is at the slight tip far below), meaning that a majority of poeple living in southern South Island (Otago, Invergarcill) are Scottish while the rest of country seems to have majority English descents.
Speaking of practical tourist information, it really depends on a hit and miss manner. Air tickets will always be in the range of at least C$1,500-1,600 range - if I'm lucky I can wait for Auckland-LAX return ticket bargains that run at NZ$1,450 but normally you need NZ$1,900 from NZ. Add NZ$300 for return tickets between LA and Vancouver the "normal" cost is around NZ$2,100 - if you add $100 it is sufficient for a return ticket to London. (This explains curiously, a return ticket to US/Canadian East Coast from Auckland is paradoxically more expensive than a ticket to London despite Britain being farther than New York, Boston, or Toronto from NZ)
A cup of cappucino at a non-chain operated cafe costs about NZ$3.50 now, and if you want to try lamb for dinner at a reasonably posh restaurant at Auckland's Viaduct Harbour, it costs around NZ$26. A main course at the highest end restaurants will cost over $35. If you go to Wellington itr seems a little cheaper. Ethnic eateries cost less: a dish of beef rendang at a fashionable Malaysian restaurant costs NZ$16 and Chinese restaurants typically cost around $17 per dish. Typically, if the food is fresh it is very good but in most cases I think the way it is prepared is disappointing: most cooks can't compare with average-grade French chefs in terms of making a decent and delicious meal.
Cheap restaurants like Denny's do exist, and you can have a steak for about $15. Sounds quite reasonable when you consider a piece of steak already costs about $10.
Those prices are perfectly on par with Canada - eating out.
Yeah - I wanted to get to New Zealand from Victoria for under CAD $1200.00. I guess I'm dreaming. I am thinking what we might do is a special ticket that let's you pick 3 stops - between Australis, New Zealand, Cook Islands, Brunei and Hong Kong. We would have to plan to spend a good couple months.
After three generations, however, most southern/eastern European Americans have become indistinguishable culturally from their Anglo and Irish counterparts, many having intermarried. While it is true that in the northeast, ethnicity still matters (more as a recreational thing than anything else), much of the country is composed of what I like to call "new America" ie recently settled communities in the southeast and west where most white Americans moved from somewhere else, and everyone shares the same rootless identity, regardless of where their ancestors come from. Examples would be Seattle, Houston, Atlanta, and the entire state of Florida.
These day, whatever prejudice there is is against recent immigrants (Latinos, Middle Easterners, etc.). However, most of these prejudices are among older people, cultural conservatives and the lower middle class. Latinos and Asians face much less discrimination than my ancestors faced in the early 20th century.
I would say that with the exception of Brazil, the U.S. is the least racist country on the planet.
I am not an expert on demographics but I do know that approximately a third of Australians have Irish ancestry and if memory serves me correctly, Roman Catholicism is the biggest religious demonation. Overall, 70% of Australians express some religious affiliation.
Just a little pointer....
Many(esp in North America)who claim 'irish' ancestry,by which they think they are of Catholic Irish ancestry,are in fact of Scots or 'Scots-Irish'/'Ulster-Scots' ancestry.
Recent studies have shown that between 50 and 58% of 'irish' Americans are in fact of Protestant faith,and therefore of Ulster-Scots ancestry.
Millions who wave a tricolor every March 17th bedecked in green in fact should be frankly waving a Red Hand Of Ulster flag and wearing orange...
Thanks for the information. The picture is radically different from here, and I found this from the New Zealand government sites about English, Scottish, and Irish immigrants and their descendants in New Zealand for comparisons:
http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/NewZealandPeoples/HistoryOfImmigration/en
http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/NewZealandPeoples/English/en
http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/NewZealandPeoples/Scots/en
http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/NewZealandPeoples/Irish/en
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