“Youths” Kick Man to Death on Crowded Antwerp Bus

The Brussels Journal ^ | June 26, 2006 | Paul Belien

[Vectorian]

'We have more gun crimes because tada, we are allowed to have guns. In England, the only citizens with guns are the criminals.'

Do you realise what nonsense that argument is?

If I follow your logic, you mean that when you allow people to own guns, you get a lot more murders? I'm not sure the NRA would agree with you! :D

Or perhaps you mean although our crminals are armed, we only have 2 or 3 of them and that accounts for the very low 62 gun murders per year? I don't think you thought that statement out very well before posting!

FYI - I am English, not a criminal and I own three guns!

[Dionysius]

Cowardice can creep into the national consciousness just like any other vice or virtue. It is witnessed in policy and in official actions and reactions. Lets face it, the Europeans are scared sh*tless of Muslims.

[Vectorian]

'http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=215'

LOL, that article certainly has some agenda! It refers to Tony Martin being jailed for killing a burglar. It fails to mention the burglar was a 16 year old boy who was unarmed and shot twice in the back whilst running away!

[agere_contra]

Yes, the SOP in 2002 was pretty damn poor. I can't tell whether the situation has improved - except that I don't seem to be able to find any later instances.

Also - (sorry) - I don't seem to be able to find the quotes I want about Tony Blair and self-defence. Put those words into a search engine and you get a million tendentious articles about Iraq :0(

[marshmallow]

You only have to compare 62 firearm related murders in Britain per year with 8259 in the US to know that civillians armed with handguns result in more deaths of innocent Americans, not less.

Each society has its own dangers. Americans pack heat. That means when arguments and disputes occur, they can often escalate into gunfire and death. That doesn't happen in the UK. So this goes some way to accounting for the difference in firearm related deaths.

However, there is another side to this coin. It is that the citizenry will never put up with crap like the escalating intifada in Europe, perpetrated by gangs of Muslim thugs, as witnessed recently in France and described in these incidents in Belgium. So yes, we have a price to pay for our firearm usage but in the world of evermore assertive Muslims and jihadists I think we'll find that we're in good shape.

Europeans in general look to the government to provide for them.....and that includes their personal security. That may have been fine in 1940 or 50 when a stern word from a bobby was sufficient to put the fear of God into a teenage tearaway but in the world of 2006, you will find and are already finding that this leaves you extremely vulnerable.

The law allows me to use reasonable force to apprehend a burglar. That means if he is armed I may shoot him in self-defence.

Is it really that simple? What say he is armed with a knife, attempts to stab you and grazes your hand, drawing a little blood and then you pull out your gun and blow him away. I'm thinking the fact that you were afraid for your life carries little weight with the police and a jury and you likely get to spend some time in the pokey for manslaughter or maybe even murder, no? He grazed your hand, you killed him. Uh oh. The term "reasonable force" has a very limited defintion in the UK, does it not?

[B Knotts]

Extending your logic, shouldn't murder rates have gone up following the liberalization of laws regarding concealed carry of firearms in state after state? The fact is: they didn't.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"current events on how local prosecution and judicial members carry out their jobs tell me otherwise."

That's your interpretation of where we are and where we are going. You aren't French are you.

I'm glad that I can rely on Colonel Colt or Mr. Makarov rather than on you to protect my family and my neighbors.

Our Belgian friend and employee came here more than a decade ago with the same defeatist attitude you appear to have. She now understands us better and she has ceased to be a victim.

Michael Frazier

[processing please hold]

But, he was a burglar. Do you see what you just did? No wonder Britain is having so many problems.

[AppyPappy]

If I follow your logic, you mean that when you allow people to own guns, you get a lot more murders?

Yup. That's why we don't allow felons to posses firearms. If we were to ban automobiles, highway fatalities would plummet.

However, Switzerland is eat up with guns. It all has to do with population. For instance, I live in a region with one of the highest per-capita gun ownership rates (Appalachia). But murders are extremely rare here. I could change the statistics and probably make our murder rate less than yours. We just get rid of the most-populated areas

[Sisku Hanne]

Called the cops on a freaky older (obviously nuts) guy who was hauling two very young and tragically unkempt children around in a Goodwill store. They did not appear to be his children and he kept addressing them like "come here, little boys". They were in a van that looked like they lived out of it. Everyone in the store was completely creeped out by him.

Tried to get a woman to get into into my car ( I'm a woman, too) on Christmas eve who was running down the road crying trying to get away from some man. She wouldn't come with me but thanked me for stopping, and I gave her an umbrella and my coat so she wouldn't freeze. Then called the cops after I pulled away.

Picked up another girl who was running down the road to get away from her abusive father. Drove her 45 min. to a relative's house in another town.

[processing please hold]

Give me a few...

I think I saw something about that a few minutes ago.

[Vectorian]

'Bottom line Vect. Your government believes you can't be trusted with a firearm. What does that say?'

Bottom line Aggy - my govt trusts me with three firearms. The govt banned handguns. The country then had a general election and a party that supported the handgun ban was voted in by a huge majority. The vast majority of the British population agree with the handgun ban - if you don't like democracy, that's hard luck.

If we ever decide we want handguns, we the people can vote democratically for it. But don't hold your breath as the British are quite willing to keep handguns banned as long as it means we can have the unique freedom of an unarmed civil police force who police by consent, not by armed force. We aren't willing to swap handguns for a heavily armed paramilitary police force like the US 'enjoys'.

[Vectorian]

'Lets face it, the Europeans are scared sh*tless of Muslims.'

Most europeans are scared sh!tless of their own shadow. I couldn't care less as I'm English and God was kind enough to proivde us with 22 miles of clear bluewater between europe and England. Bet you wish he's done the same between the US and Mexico! :D

[roofgoat]

your way off. Never said to take defeat. But I'm not naive either.

Let's just say I hope I'm dead wrong and I hope that you are right. I will get no satisfaction on being right regarding my previous post.

BTW, you did see the post here about a guy in UK who protected his family and is being investigated by the local authorities.

Seeds get planted everyday.

[PeteB570]

Dang, I need to hang around you. People are generally well behaved around me.

Even in the "not so good" areas of town nobody comes up and jumps me. Most just kinda' walk off or give me "the look".

[processing please hold]

gun-terror-for-family

Did that take place in Britain? And by the by, you never did post that link about Mr. Caeiro being cleared.

[Vectorian]

'However, there is another side to this coin. It is that the citizenry will never put up with crap like the escalating intifada in Europe, perpetrated by gangs of Muslim thugs, as witnessed recently in France and described in these incidents in Belgium. So yes, we have a price to pay for our firearm usage but in the world of evermore assertive Muslims and jihadists I think we'll find that we're in good shape.'

Once again, I couldn't care less what the eurolosers do - I live in England, not euroland. In England muslims may not own handguns, in the US you freely allow them to. Hows that helping your cause when you have three times the muslims we do and they can all arm themselves to the teeth legally when the next mullah tells them to!

'That may have been fine in 1940 or 50 when a stern word from a bobby was sufficient to put the fear of God into a teenage tearaway but in the world of 2006, you will find and are already finding that this leaves you extremely vulnerable.'

Once again the figures don't bear this out. the US has more guns and has more violence and more murders per capita - many times more. It's you guys who think handguns can solve social problems who are vulnerable.

'The term "reasonable force" has a very limited defintion in the UK, does it not?'

The definition is very simple - I am allowed to use whatever force is necessary to protect my self right up to killing my assailant. If I am in no danger of being killed, I may not kill. If I confront a knife-wielding burglar with my rifle, I do not need to kill him unless he tries to stab me. If he runs away and i shoot him in the back like Tony Martin did, that is unreasonable force.

[Vectorian]

'But, he was a burglar. Do you see what you just did? No wonder Britain is having so many problems.'

So all unarmed 16 year old burglars who are running away from you must be killed? OK!

In the UK we consider jail a more fitting sentence for burglary, shooting wayward schoolkids dead with 12 bore shotguns also makes such a mess of the carpet. . . . . ;-)

I'd love to live in your trouble free utopia, but no-one makes a decent cup of tea, so I guess I'll stay on my little island.

[Lovely-Day-For-A-Guinness]

But don't hold your breath as the British are quite willing to keep handguns banned as long as it means we can have the unique freedom of an unarmed civil police force who police by consent, not by armed force.

Interesting comment coming from a bloke what lives in a country oozing with CCTV cameras everywhere and speeding cameras out the whazoo. How free do you feel with cameras watching your every move?

Be that as it may, what about axes, especially those buried in the head of a black schoolboy in Birmingham? Have axes been banned in the UK yet? Or are knives still the crusade du jour in Blighty?

[Vectorian]

'Yup. That's why we don't allow felons to posses firearms. If we were to ban automobiles, highway fatalities would plummet. '

Same here. A car has a touch more utility to it than a handgun though, and is somewhat trickier to conceal about ones person.

'However, Switzerland is eat up with guns. It all has to do with population. For instance, I live in a region with one of the highest per-capita gun ownership rates (Appalachia). But murders are extremely rare here. I could change the statistics and probably make our murder rate less than yours. We just get rid of the most-populated areas'

And I could survey the muslims living in my garden shed and tell you there aren't any, but it wouldn't have any meaning! :D